[GS] Phoenicia Discussion Thread

[SupremacyKing2]

It's a shame we won't get a militaristic Carthage civ with war elephants that can cross mountains. That would have been very cool.

 

[Weraptor]

Eh, expected a bigger scientific bonus than Writing Eureka. A bit let down by the fact that Cothon isn't a unique City Center, the bonuses for Biremes are same as Mali UU's. Naval production bonus is too reminiscent of Norway. Apart from that, the civ seems quite interesting. And Dido makes for a top tier waifu.

 

[Jkchart]

It's a shame we won't get a militaristic Carthage civ with war elephants that can cross mountains. That would have been very cool.

That’s exactly what I didn’t want to see return but I mean I guess some players liked that. I absolutely hated that ability in Civ V because it never felt useful enough, especially with the -50 health if you didn’t have enough MP.

Also, since she’s naval focused, I think the Bireme is far more appropriate than elephants.

 

[Ziad]

I was thinking... what if each capital transition creates a new Palace without removing the older one?

This would be a nod to both the city state nature, and would afford a significant boost to each city's economy if rotated.

I can't see them removing something that provides Housing and Amenity from a city like that. Maybe this is the secret sauce we're all missing.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

It's a shame we won't get a militaristic Carthage civ with war elephants that can cross mountains. That would have been very cool.

*scowls at @SupremacyKing2 *

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

It's a shame we won't get a militaristic Carthage civ with war elephants that can cross mountains. That would have been very cool.

Play as Chandragupta and put Phoenicia in the game. Keep a Varu around until the modern era and conquer Carthage in the meantime. Get a military engineer to build a mountain tunnel and move your Varu through it. Problem solved.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Eh, expected a bigger scientific bonus than Writing Eureka. A bit let down by the fact that Cothon isn't a unique City Center, the bonuses for Biremes are same as Mali UU's. Naval production bonus is too reminiscent of Norway. Apart from that, the civ seems quite interesting. And Dido makes for a top tier waifu.

I thought about this, and thought about how far we are from the days where unique units were all regular units only stronger, and unique abilities were all just better libraries, courthouses etc.

 

[Ziad]

Haha called the agenda.

Can someone ask on twitter about what happens to the Palace on capital transition?

 

[kb27787]

Useless civ most likely. Without bonus to coastal housing the district production bonus will not do much for her (you expect cothon and plaza... Then you need at least 7 pop already to be able to build a district there)

UU quite useless as it is melee. Trade routes are admittedly nice but clearly worse than Mali's or Crees's bonuses.

Loyalty perk not an issue unless you expect yourself to be constantly in dark ages

 

[Ziad]

Loyalty perk not an issue unless you expect yourself to be constantly in dark ages

I think people aren't grasping something, in that Phoenicia wants to settle on a string of coast. This leaves cities uniquely vulnerable to loyalty as you do not have a cluster of cities to protect you. This is especially true for forward settling on coast. You do not want to settle inland unless there are resources to exploit.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Useless civ most likely. Without bonus to coastal housing the district production bonus will not do much for her (you expect cothon and plaza... Then you need at least 7 pop already to be able to build a district there)

UU quite useless as it is melee. Trade routes are admittedly nice but clearly worse than Mali's or Crees's bonuses.

Loyalty perk not an issue unless you expect yourself to be constantly in dark ages

Worst. Civ. Ever.

 

[Onin]

It is really hard to know how they will play but their early game should be very interesting. A lot of the game is about claiming land and their land grab game is fundamentally different from every other civ in the game. Plus they are a naval powerhouse which can really change early wars. The new ability of allowing them to settle away from their capital can allow them to put both loyalty pressure and military pressure on other civs. Of course they also have to make a pretty big investment into the naval game early on where there are a lot of other competing needs in terms of both production and science. Will have to play the game to figure out build order and research order.

I will also add that quicker district production is helpful for your city that is churning out settlers.

 

[Ondolindë]

I was excited about Phoenecia, but it just didn’t deliver that enthusiasm for me. I think we hyped it up way to much considering that we expect the best for last. It is good, but I am way more excited to play the Ottomans’s and, maybe even Hungary, and I’m a peaceful player. Even the artwork didn’t fascinate me, although the Cothon looks nice. I was expecting Dido to be closer to majestic for some reason, but it looks definitely that it came out of Gorgo’s initial sketches. But I’ll definitely play it and that could change my mind as to how much I like it. It’s not Canada by any means, not even close. I don’t feel like playing Canada in any foreseeable future.

 

[bite]

My thoughts on Phoenicia - it could be a powerhouse Civ, but you will need to check with play testing as to how good the loyalty buffs work in-game

 

[AmazonQueen]

It's a shame we won't get a militaristic Carthage civ with war elephants that can cross mountains. That would have been very cool.

Be better if that was a special ability linked to Hannibal as a GG. Not even the Carthaginians made a regular habit of it.

 

[GreenofKnight45]

The return of the moveable capital from civ 4!

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I was excited about Phoenecia, but it just didn’t deliver that enthusiasm for me. I think we hyped it up way to much considering that we expect the best for last. It is good, but I am way more excited to play the Ottomans’s and, maybe even Hungary, and I’m a peaceful player. Even the artwork didn’t fascinate me, although the Cothon looks nice. I was expecting Dido to be closer to majestic for some reason, but it looks definitely that it came out of Gorgo’s initial sketches. But I’ll definitely play it and that could change my mind as to how much I like it. It’s not Canada by any means, not even close. I don’t feel like playing Canada in any foreseeable future.

I want to boat rush someone and then move to settler building after I get the infrastructure set up.

 

[acluewithout]

How are people underwhelmed?

Cities on the same continent as your capital have 100% loyalty.

Dido can move her capital.

So, Dido can forward settle the entire game and on different continents.

This is a really powerful Mechanic. I mean, her settlers get extra movement too? You could forward settle as part of a military invasion. Chop out at Harbour or Reyna it (remember, it’s half price). Move your Cap. Now you have the perfect base of operations and it won’t loyalty flip. Nor will any coastal cities you capture. Plus - all your Naval units heal instantly.

This is such an interesting Mechanic.

On top of that, Dido can also just nail the OCC if you want to go that route, given she gets four trade routes from her GP and can pump out districts in that city. You know - including Neighbourhoods.

And half price Harbour district is still a half price Harbour district.

Really interesting design. Really, really interesting.



There is - extra trade routes. Extra trade routes are awesome. And it looks like she can stop Sea routes being pillaged too.

It’s like Bizarro ancient era England. You know. Because of the Harbour. And trade routes.

The loyalty bonus only applies to self-founded cities.

True. But my point was you can aggressively forward settle a City, and then use it as a base of operations to heal units and make attacks. Actually, you could hold captured cities too just by making one your capital (does an existing Harbour turn into a Cothon on capture).

Anyway. Like I said. Agreesive forward settling. Followed by aggressive loyalty flipping if you wish.

Now that my mourning of the Carthagian Elephants is done, some thoughts on Phoenicia:

Mediterranean Colonies: This full loyalty thing is pretty decent actually, it opens up Phoenicia’s settling options a good bit. You can forward settle the heck out of your neighbors without much consequence. The Writing boost, however, is pretty trivial in my opinion; that’s a really easy eureka to get, so it doesn’t amount to much.

Founder of Carthage: This is something I wish every Civ had, but as a unique, it’s a little underwhelming. Outside of alleviating some loyalty pressure on another continent if you slip into a dark age, it seems mostly gimmicky. The bonus production and trade routes, however, seems really, really good. It’s only for one city, since it’s tied to the Gov. Plaza, but the bonus is so good that I don’t particularly mind.

Bireme: Not a war elephant, so it’s the worst unit in the game.
Ok, but in all honesty I don’t think this unit will be all that significant. Classical era naval dominance really doesn’t matter, as we all know with Norway, so even if it’s significantly stronger, I don’t know if I particularly care. The naval trade route protection however might be more useful than Mali’s land counterpart, since naval barbs are a bit more unpredictable. Still fairly gimmicky.

Cothon: I love that we have two uniques of the same district, it opens things way up for a possible third expansion. The district itself is a bit bland, but potentially powerful. Churning out naval units like no one’s business could be great, and that is a very heavy bonus to apply to settler production. However, harbors are not high on my production queue, and it seems like shipbuilding might be necessary to get the most out of Phoenicia’s settlers, so realistically, this might not be all that strong. It could, however, be amazing.

Overall, I’m a bit underwhelmed by Phoenicia. They’re not as wacky or unique a Civ as I expected, and most of the things that make them unique seem like largely gimmicks. Still, there is a lot of upside for some of their strengths in game, and they could be really good for domination and science with that production bonus.

Current power rankings: Maori > Hungary > Inca > Sweden > Ottomans > Phoenicia > Canada > Mali

I agree with bits of this, but disagree with most. I think Dido’s Civ is much more impressive if you look at how all this “moving capital 100% loyalty cheap Harbour better settlers” stuff joins up. No, they’re not OP or crazy powerful. But there is scope for really interesting gameplay. Really, really interesting.

Extra trade routes are extra trade routes. Having extra trade routes rocked a England. No different here, and indeed they’ll be easier to get than GS England’s extra Trade Routes. Plus, you’ll be able to prevent your routes getting pillaged. All so much better than another flat trade route yield buff - God Treasure Fleet and all the rest of those sorts of abilities are boring.

Loving having two unique Harbours. Map will look cool. Good precedent too. And to be clear, Harbours are really great districts.

I am sorry they don’t get a unique luxury, but that might have been a bit OP (unless it was maybe locked behind a tech).

I’m guessing the writing is just a flavour thing. Like Russia gets immunity to Snow Storms or whatever. I really like little touches like that.

I'm underwhelmed, going to be one of the last civs I play. No trade focus? No unique luxury? Meh.

How are they not trade focused?

Cheap Harbours so will get Trade Routes faster. Plus four extra trade routes. Plus they can stop their trade routes getting pillaged.

...Seem very trade focused to me.

Actually....a very good point. Does Phoenicia leverage on any GS mechanics?

And there’s their Malus. Lots of coastal cities mean their vulnerable to see levels rising.

... oh ...

Be afraid of global warming.

... someone already said that. Bother.

 

[pgm123]

No, completely wiped out. Forward-settling and loyalty immunity isn't going to fly with me.

Haha. Fair point. What if she moves to some arctic island? Also, what are the odds we start seeing Phoenicia do that? Maori too.

While it's not my playstyle, I feel that it works pretty well illustrating Phoenician history. I would have liked a bit more trade focus perhaps.

Unique resources were terribly underwhelming in Civ V Indonesia, so I do not miss that mechanic.

I wanted them to have the ability to manufacture luxuries. But I'm still holding out hope that all civs can do this in the third expansion.

It's a shame we won't get a militaristic Carthage civ with war elephants that can cross mountains. That would have been very cool.

I'm actually not sure if this is sarcastic, but either way, well done.

Eh, expected a bigger scientific bonus than Writing Eureka. A bit let down by the fact that Cothon isn't a unique City Center, the bonuses for Biremes are same as Mali UU's. Naval production bonus is too reminiscent of Norway. Apart from that, the civ seems quite interesting. And Dido makes for a top tier waifu.

Cothon gives you a science bonus.

I thought a unique city center would have been bad. It doesn't give you anything to do. It would feel like a civ bonus instead of a unique district.

 

[Jkchart]

[QUOTE="Leathaface, post: 15348773, member: 225393]
You can only build the Government Plaza in one city, so you should only get the 50% bonus production towards districts in 1 city only? Unless being able to move your capital somehow changes this.

Can you not build a lighthouse in a Cothon?[/QUOTE]

Yeah I get that but does that mean I still can’t like it? That is why I still said “slightly underwhelming” since it’s only for one city but heck having your major production city with this and shaving off turns of new districts means more production later for other things to me.