Phoenicia

[Leoreth]

I think the Phoenicians are still quite lackluster. Their UHV doesn't really go anywhere, and their UB, UP and UU don't really help them achieve it (or anything else). So I thought about them for a while and this is what I think should happen:

UHV: I think we need them to simulate Carthage more, because that is where the fun is. Therefore I think two UHV goals should be:
- Build a Palace and the Great Harbor in Carthage by X
- Control Italy and Iberia by Y

The beauty of the first one is that it can flawlessly replace the Mediterranean cities goal because you need cities anyway to be able to build the palace.

The third goal then should reflect Phoenician commerce. I don't think the Dye business is all that important really, so let's think of something else. Accumulate gold? Accumulate gold by trade? I'm not sure. The alternative to represent pre-Carthage Phoenicia is a "first to discover" goal, Currency and Alphabet come to mind. The exploration goal is boring too imo.

UB & UP: both represent Phoenicia's trade orientation, which is fine in principle, but shouldn't occupy two unique aspects of them. I would prefer to bring back the old Carthaginian UP, because they really need the manpower to attack Rome, and keep the trade focus for the UB. It's been mentioned several times though that Metal Casting comes too late for Carthage and I agree, so it shouldn't be a Forge replacement. I guess the easiest route is a market replacement instead. It could still give extra trade routes / extra trade yield, or a free merchant, depending on which is more interesting for the UHV goal. This would give an incentive to go for Currency even without a tech goal as well.

UU: That's the hardest part. The Bireme is pretty much useless so I agree it should be replaced. And I don't think cavalry suits the feel of either Phoenicia or Carthage so bringing back the Numidian Cavalry isn't that good of an idea either. Other ideas:

Sacred Band (replaces Spearman)
Strength: 5
+50% against cavalry
+25% city attack
Starts with Amphibious

Strong enough to conduct naval attacks on cities defended by archers, still weak against Legions (as they should be). Slightly weaker against cavalry which aids their demise against the Berbers later in the game.

African War Elephant (replaces War Elephant)
Only requires Horseback Riding
Starts with Shock

I've heard that Construction is a little too far away for Carthage, don't know if that's true though. That unit allows to fare better against Legions, and you can replay Hannibal.

Thoughts?

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

The Sacred Band seems lackluster.
The African War Elephant is a much better idea.
Construction is definitely out of reach when Phoenicia's current focus is on other things, such as survival. The biggest problem for Phoenicia is imo, Production.
Before, as you've seen in some screenshots of Phoenicia games of mine, I've taken to settling Utica (Kirition?) on the one-tile copper island for the base production and The Great Cothon.
Because Phoenicia lacks in production, I mostly hire mercenary armies and load them up on ships.
A free merchant/extra trade routes in their UB would help to synergize with this reliance.
However, bear in mind that Phoenicia will VERY often be at war with neighboring powers, such as Greece, Rome & Persia, so the extra trade routes are not very useful in my opinion.

Basically, Phoenicia's primary needs are, IMO:
-Gold
-Mercenaries
-Navy

This is somewhat subjective as there are a number of good spots to take over with good production (Sparte, Rome)
but they are not always available to take over, or they may not grow very well.

(The whole every city Phoenicia has flips to multiple civs is a different
concern unrelated to the UHV, so I'm not going to talk about that here)

 

[Stazro]

I'm not a great fan of how Phoenicia works at the moment either.

On Marathon the exploration goal practically means you have to know the greater part of Eurasia and Africa in order to beat China - which doesn't lead anywhere. And the dye goal (since no one will actually be willing to trade it away, if they even got to calendar in time) means that you have to take and hold southern Italy and the Cyrenaika probably by force, making it actually more of a military goal than anything else.
Perhaps it could be a combination of different ressources? After all, the barcid enterprise in Spain was to a considerable degree a mining operation.

I'm not convinced it should be required of the Phoenicians to take Italy: I don't think conquering another (contemporary) civ's core fits the civ at all. Apart from that it may be insanely hard, depending on what units you have at your disposal:

Construction may not be too far in every case, but I distinctly remember trying to fight off Legions with nothing more but Archers and Spearmen, since there weren't any particularly useful mercs available either...
So I fully support the idea to provide an earlier unit that gives Carthage a fighting chance - history proves it was no pushover.

 

[Cosmos1985]

I'm not crazy about the Control Italy-thing neither, but the rest of it sounds good. +1 Free Merchant UB, isn't that maybe OP though? Accumulate gold by trade sounds good to me too - aren't they meant to be trading with Greece fx? Or who did they historically trade with? There's maybe not that many other civs around though, true, but Accumulate gold in itself is just so extremely boring.

But most of it sounds really good

 

[Mr_Hobo]

Construction isn't hard to get, it is just hard to get at the same time as Horseback Riding. The Sacred Band is good, although as someone mentioned production is the biggest problem so you might not be able to make too many withiout adjustment.

 

[strijder20]

Be the first to found a city in all continents? It'll take a long time and is ahistorical, but every civ has an ahistorical goal and it allows for some nice shortcuts to be taken (with cities in N-Ireland, Iceland, Vinland and the Cape you can settle all continents before Astronomy).

 

[Locutus_Morti]

But at least they're semi-historical.

Certainly Tibet didn't spread Buddhism to 30% of the world, but they did spread it a lot. Phoenicia never knew about the Americas. That's just plain wrong.

 

[strijder20]

It represents their exploration in a way though (they reached the Cape, IIRC, and I think there were Phoenicians amongst the Egyptian crew which possibly circumnavigated Africa).

 

[Sikandar]

African War Elephant. Carthage wasn't known for its native infantry (instead relying heavily on Celts and Libyans in the example of Hannibal). The Sacred Band of Carthage got wiped out before the Punic Wars and was an anomaly to begin with (because Carthaginians were primarily officers in mercenary armies rather than soldiers).

 

[Locutus_Morti]

So then give them an explorer goal, like "Circumnaviagate Africa by xdate," not something ridiculous that's nearly impossible.

 

[strijder20]

So then give them an explorer goal, like "Circumnaviagate Africa by xdate," not something ridiculous that's nearly impossible.

Nearly impossible? I meant they have to be the first to found cities in all continents, not that they should be first in every single one of them. How can you be the first to found a city in Africa when Egypt spawns in 3000 BC?

 

[Locutus_Morti]

I wasn't suggesting making any goals. I was simply stating that settling a city on every continent as Phoenicia nearly impossible and very ahistorical, and would make for a very strange game.

 

[strijder20]

I wasn't suggesting making any goals. I was simply stating that settling a city on every continent as Phoenicia nearly impossible and very ahistorical, and would make for a very strange game.

I can do it with easy, though Just takes some time.

 

[SanJose]

UP: unit witn GG 100%win battle against any ancient unit if have more 50% str.

 

[Locutus_Morti]

^^But that's not the point. Phoenicia never found the Americas, having a goal for them to settle the Americas is silly.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

No love for the Italy goal?

Honestly? I like it very much. This is a very historical what-if:
"What if Hannibal successfully destroyed Rome as a state"

I usually go after the Italian Peninsula in many of my Phoenicia games anyway.
I definitely think some variant of this should be added to the checklist:
1. Ensure that the Roman Empire does not survive past X AD.
2. Control the Italian Peninsula.

 

[archcapitalist]

No love for the Italy goal?

Honestly? I like it very much. This is a very historical what-if:
"What if Hannibal successfully destroyed Rome as a state"

I usually go after the Italian Peninsula in many of my Phoenicia games anyway.
I definitely think some variant of this should be added to the checklist:
1. Ensure that the Roman Empire does not survive past X AD.
2. Control the Italian Peninsula.

what if it had a gold from pillaging goal, to encourage the player to invade italy but just roam the countryside pillaging. obviously rome never fell

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

what if it had a gold from pillaging goal, to encourage the player to invade italy but just roam the countryside pillaging. obviously rome never fell

Rome never fell by Carthage's hands, that's true, but I think you need to understand that
part of the emphasis of the modmod is to help civilizations achieve goals that they fell short of in real life,
such as Prussia's European domination goal. Controlling Italy would fall in line with that.

 

[Stazro]

Honestly? I like it very much. This is a very historical what-if:
"What if Hannibal successfully destroyed Rome as a state"

That's not what he was trying to do. Sources exist, according to which Hannibal only sought to restore the status quo between the cities. Carthage would also have had a difficult time trying to effectively control the much more populous Italy.
In more tribal areas in Spain or Africa they used a relatively loose system of alliances and tributaries with only a limited number of punic urban centres. Ruling Italy from Carthage might have been am impossible or at least economically very unprofitable enterprise.

Controlling Iberia and the Maghred would fit. Perhaps - if that is possible to do - something like having held Rome for at least a turn would be a suitable alternative to controlling Italy.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

"Build a Palace in Carthage" goal is very boring IMO. Why not start them in Carthage? After all Dido was a contemporary of the Trojan War (c. 1200 BCE).

UHVs:

- Acquire X number of Luxury and Strategic resources by year Y. X and Y should be high enough to encourage the control of Spain (Tarraco Silver, Cadiz double Horse), Rome (Iron, Wine, Marble), and Sicily (Wine, Dye).

- Collapse or Vassalize Rome by ...

- Have the largest GNP in year Z. Z should be early enough so that this UHV is challenging given the economic powers of China, India, and Persia. Cothon uber-starvation is encouraged for this goal.