PIE's Ancient Mediterranean on Deity

[lymond]

There's tons I haven't seen yet either. I've been playing around in some other games. You should try Carthage on the 18 Alternative Scenario. They have like every resource right there..ha

I'm just not sure we have the option to settle the slave like that yet. Don't we need the tech. There's two methods as you say. Settling and Joining Palace/Temple staff, which I think is what you meant by generating slaves. Not sure as I can't look.

 

[Manco Capac]

Oh yeah, I was real lucky on the way home. I stalled a couple turns in the middle there just waiting for a bear to go in some direction away, but otherwise clear sailing. The part I was really worried about was waiting for the Warrior to finish healing back at Lydia. Healing takes forever.

Curious if you know this: With medic dudes like our Druid. They always start with medic I. The pedia shows availability of like 5 more medic promos. How in the world do they ever get those promos?

Interesting that civs have many unique units of various standard types but often they don't have unique or special bonuses.

It is nice that Croesus is such a nice leader. I will definitely try to export info from the XML files to here later. We need to know more about him. Perhaps, we'll be able to DoW three times before he gets to furious. But I think that won't work because it is surprising we're not the worst enemy yet. That means he met someone he dislikes more than us even with DoW penalty. I have suspicion for Arminius or something of this ilk. That germanic chieftain is usually unloved.

Druids are the strong unique aspect of celts (although India got Brahma and a set of better buildings...). Indeed, druids cannot get XPs from battles because they're defenseless units. But I think experience should come from city XP (settled GG, gladiators, civics, buildings, etc.). Or a GG you use, but given it is not like BTS with easy XP (some buildings are as weak as +1 XP and they are gotten late!), settled GG are the strongest use of them. And on Epic, we've got more time to heal. And lastly, later medics promos may be only available with the right tech. Although it should be tested! I clearly recall when I invaded a late barb city, I got a free Immortal unit and I was allowed to upgrade up to medics 5 without having the tech unlocking more than medics 2.

Medics 1 is the only free promo druids get.

Yes, unique traits are strangely absent.

BTW, did you know the the next version of PAE, Aqueducs will only be restriced to Romans. That sucks. It is said the tech is capturable via wars, but you see, AI are awful at teching late techs. Aqueducs are worth +1 and +2 and allotable engineer.

 

[Manco Capac]

There's tons I haven't seen yet either. I've been playing around in some other games. You should try Carthage on the 18 Alternative Scenario. They have like every resource right there..ha

I'm just not sure we have the option to settle the slave like that yet. Don't we need the tech. There's two methods as you say. Settling and Joining Palace/Temple staff, which I think is what you meant by generating slaves. Not sure as I can't look.

Staff for Palace or Temple are bad early options. It gives literally weak results. Even selling the slave (only possible when we got a settled slave for the slave trade center and that is why I want to settle a slave, so next slaves could be used for free golds we desesperately need) is better.

Yes, for some reason, if you got a slave, the tech is absolutely not necessary for settling. A why early worker stealing is sooo strong. AI is clueless about this and I'm not sure unit enslaving exists before the tech. Only workers can become slaves early.

BTW, an interesting aspect of PAE is military units farming. With Babylonia, I had the Arabic peninsula down there. Lots of desert allowing an easy -25% defense. Of course, I controlled the peninsula with fogbusting completely at some point, but early, I found it quite pleasing all those barbs desertions. Especially German Mercenaries (über strong) and Mercenary W Elephants. It led that 50% of my army came from this! That helped me to avoid mass deforestation. For now, I know basic units like hunters and warriors don't incur such bad penaltly, but I know that even archers cause deforestation. And a BFC can go bare so fast that way! I will search how to deactivate this because it's such a bad implementation. It's a good idea for historical simulation (Rapa Nui people died because they did too much of mass deforestation for their alien status on their small island) but for balance it's awful. If only it allowed early deforestation of rainforest once all forests, dense forests and savanna are gone, nope! We still needs IW. Pffft!

 

[Ghpstage]

Will join properly in a few days when I get access to an intenet connection capable of downloading anything.

ineName>MIN_ANIMAL_STARTING_DISTANCE</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>1</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>
<Define>
<DefineName>MIN_BARBARIAN_STARTING_DISTANCE</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>2</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>
<Define>
<DefineName>MIN_BARBARIAN_CITY_STARTING_DISTANCE </DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>3</iDefineIntVal>

So those evil looking animals can't even be spawnbusted easily . If they are stronger than the human barbs that spawn it may be worth checking if they die out like regular animals, hang around like FFH2, or maybe even continue spawning

 

[Manco Capac]

Nice to see Gphstage. I hope you will find an agreeable experience out of this succession game.

At some point, I'll assemble most important info related to critical mechanics. A good stragegic game is played best when mechanics are known. Some believes in ignorance spices best the game, but seriously I don't like gambling on everything. Not to point out the bizarre strategies I made out of reading the code (like gifting an early city at an abusive distance from the AI to make a buffer from an AI I consider mighty dangerous; changing his land target in other words). You don't the rage that took the first time I realized barb animal spawned next to me (in the sense a wolf that can reach me in one turn!).

 

[Manco Capac]

People (since this is no longer limited to Lymo)!

I have found the century tactic for early game. Seriously, I can't believe I have never thought about that!

As I said, I was worried about the constant growth and the happiness limitations that will lead to possibly city revolts, which are far far worse than unhealthiness (as it can ruin a game). Settling a field slave (take it as a under specialist ,Gph) giving two more food would just hasten our doom.

No longer! Still, I need to test it, but if it works, gawd, our financial problems are gone.

What stunts growth? Well, development units like workers and settlers. For the moment, only workers are available and that is easily sufficient.

As I said, slave economy is a strong way to maintain the race against those deity AI's.
Well, why not just keep training workers once the Palace built! Then we bring them along a squad of 4 units and give them to our so great friend, Croesus. He doesn't want them (financial crisis), well, we DoW him and wait he enslaves our workers. Then, all we need to do is to use our squad and eliminate the enslaving unit and get....dun dun dun....slaves!!!!

Basically:

Worker factory ==> Lydia ==> Slave factory!

Since Lydia accepts OB for now, let's abuse it! Probably, it's gonna workable for one time for gifting, but later, all we need to do is to let a warrior/hunter capture our workers and get in return slaves!

Now, mathematically, the conversion rate is fabulous although random depending which uses we do out of slaves.

When building research, it's a ratio of 25% of research output. Simply bad. When we make merchant cart (later), it's 120 for ~ 60 . 50% output.

Now, slaves from workers mean 60 (need to check) into [10,40] . With luck, that can become >50% wealth output!

Now, when used for rushing buildings, IIRC, it is 43 , which means a decent conversion in hammers...and making short of growth while constructing buildings.

 

[Manco Capac]

I'm such a game exploiter... <3

 

[Ghpstage]

As I said, slave economy is a strong way to maintain the race against those deity AI's.
Well, why not just keep training workers once the Palace built! Then we bring them along a squad of 4 units and give them to our so great friend, Croesus. He doesn't want them (financial crisis), well, we DoW him and wait he enslaves our workers. Then, all we need to do is to use our squad and eliminate the enslaving unit and get....dun dun dun....slaves!!!!

Sounds nice but how will the AI react to trying this? In base BTS it tends to insta-diband Workers it captures that are either further than a short distance from the nearest city (4-5 plots? can't remember exatly) and outside culture, or would be immediately threatened by a unit OR enemy borders after capture. The plot thing I remember seeing in the code, the behaviour when the captured unit was threatened I found in testing.

If the AI treats Slaves the same, then while the first part could easily be gotten around, avoiding the second would mean standing off the capturing unit meaning having to wait till you could catch those slaves sitting in city which may take a while, and that assumes they don't get used up somehow.

EDIT
Just saw something not entirely relevant (and from regular BTS to) but may be worth mentioning in the context of abuse

Spoiler :

bool CvPlayerAI::AI_acceptUnit(CvUnit* pUnit) const
{
if (isHuman())
{
return true;
}

if (AI_isFinancialTrouble())
{
if (pUnit->AI_getUnitAIType() == UNITAI_WORKER)
{
if (AI_neededWorkers(pUnit->area()) > 0)
{
return true;
}
}

if (pUnit->AI_getUnitAIType() == UNITAI_WORKER_SEA)
{
return true;
}

if (pUnit->AI_getUnitAIType() == UNITAI_MISSIONARY)
{
return true; //XXX
}
return false;
}

return true;

On accepting gifts, when in financial trouble it seems the AI wil still accept workers to a limit of how many it thinks it needs, and missionaries, but as they'll get used in no time that doesn't help us. But what about workboats? What does it do with Workboats it doesn't need? because I see potential for farming war success from spammed Workboat gifts

 

[Manco Capac]

Short on time right now. But the tactic let workers get captured then get slaves did work. I got over 300 gold out of it!
Will do a write-up later. Urgent matters now.

 

[lymond]

Why not just build a stack of workers, send them to a tile inside the border, gift them, and then attack. Voila! Stack o' slaves.

Good to see your here, GHP!

 

[Manco Capac]

Why not just build a stack of workers, send them to a tile inside the border, gift them, and then attack. Voila! Stack o' slaves.

Good to see your here, GHP!

In the end, I couldn't make in action this plan. Instead, I baited single unit to attack my stack of workers (so exchanging war weariness for slaves I think) and get slaves. I think I got as much as 12 slaves thanks to this process. Sadly, I lost three. One fled and two revolted into insurgents. I got many bad lucks again. lol.

We met a new AI (the one I knew the existence when testing sadly) and we can't make peace with Lydia anymore. Even the trick doesn't work anymore, meaning they have gotten strong. Still, just recently, we start our expansion and that will help to balance out. I don't think we shall make peace. It's so easy to defend in PAE and DoWing again means more demerit against the other AI. Not to mention the Auroch is somehow helping us by guarding the distance between our two warring nations.


Stay around. Will make the update soon.

 

[lymond]

So we are now allies with that evil beast Seems fitting doesn't it. I wish we could tame that thing like in FFH.

 

[Manco Capac]

That was weird. For like over an hour, I thought CivFanatics was down. After a moment I try on my laptop and it did work. I restart the computer and *facepalm*.

 

[Manco Capac]

5th turnset - More bad lucks I guess.​

This time I commented what I did.

Spoiler :

Workers behave so weird. It's mighty dangerous out there!

Leadership! Finally, a palatial income.

Comments in the pic.

I realized later that ORG means faster palace. I think turning the first slave as income would have been better. Anyways, a palace in three turns is nice.

Microed nicely.

Newly captured slaves

We settle that slave for slave trade center and commencing getting GEngineer points.

A shot inside the city of what is a field slave. A nice "specialist". Also, I settled it in the same time as the palace will be finished. That means next turn we get -1 happiness neutralized by the palace. No risk of revolt then. Slave revolts are the worst because it means weakened garrison and all slaves are attacking the very turn of the revolt!

Palace done. See the BPT.

We start farming workers into slaves. And at the same time stunt completely the growth.

I took a chance against that bear since it was annoyingly placed.

We won! The bear escaped! BTW, I discovered XP maxed out at +2 even at low odds! I did not know that!


Making our way out towards celtia without problems.

Keeps an hunter there to see more workers.

Interesting how Lydia hates an unknown AI. Even with -6 from double DoWs, he still wants to OB.

97 turns before GEngineer spawn.

Finally the last possible BFC forest. Now, we maxed out with +4 health from features.

A worker? From the opposite direction. Well. Are you telling me those two original workers took that much of a risk to improve that tile!

Slaves into the celtic lands. Now the RNG to revolt into Insurgents start. The worst.

Meanwhile, we promise our workers a land where they can fare well.

To be continued in the next post.

 

[lymond]

Yep, it was down for some time

 

[Manco Capac]

Following to...

Spoiler :

Somehow, although in war, I was happy that Croesus did found that city because that meant easier transit of slaves. Still, I would have been happy if that settler party got eaten.

Moar cash.

Worker factory.

Time to DoW and grab both the worker and pillaging that cottage.

Royalry allows 25% on the three basic output. Seriously, no other techs were contenders to this one.

Interesting turn of event. Croesus converted to egyptian religion. That obviously means some egyptian leader is near him. I think that's good because if we get a hold on that religion, some of those early wonders (some are strong happy-wise or better like longer GAges) will be unlocked or grabbed before obsolescence. It's always good to have Egypt near.

A terrible event happened while anarchy towards royalty. Stupid revolt. I chose to give a lower amount of gold for 50% of no revolt. Well, I got the worst. A chance no animals were around.

Lydian new city.

Attempting to bait, but I'm sure those soldiers in the BFC don't help.

Some overview.

Da hunter. <3

I'm a monster. I promise good things to my citizens, but I enslave them in fact.

Plow. Pre-req of Internal Colo.

Well, we are starting to do well. On, IIRC, 14 civs.

Slaves! Also, I see there is some hindu. It's weird that religion appeared so late given the tech can be gotten so early.

A slave fled to some foreign country. Well...

Showing some micro that emphazice stopping the growth while building something that allows growth.

Pottery.

Sentry promo! For the third time!

We got to have money!

Wow, epidemic in the lydian city while being in forests. Uh wut?

Metal working.

Yesh...don't like the strentgh of that tile hammer-wise...while being at war.

Wow! We're doing great regarding land ratio!

Thank you Croesus. Now die!

Gotta love that trick!<3

Ouch! A new kind of soldier. That sounds bad. At least, it's still too weak compared to beefed up warrior.

Moar money!

 

[Manco Capac]

At last.

Spoiler :

Faster GEngineer.

Bronze age!

Ouch! As always, Lydia is doing well technologically.

Micro.

Beast!

The new wave of workers. Finally, the bear is gone somewhere else.

We met the unknown egypt. Hatshe! Well, she seems pissed for some reason.

Well, not that much after all!

Da most important tech. Now the game starts!

I know I should have take advice, but looking Egypt doesn't have it (tech trade). Also, I know per experience that tech is often delayed. AI seems uninterested. Also makes camp more profitable commerce-wise and at last the silk route project, which is a huge boon as the one who finishes it first receive 400 gold. Gold is really important. And furthermore, I can say for certainty that even if we fail, the fail gold of a ratio 1:1 is huge! No other means to get better except multipliers.

Dynasty is another strong civic for boosting the three outputs.

Fine! Let use you for my experiments on my own citizen workers.






Ouch! My first insurgent. Those guys are tough. It's obvious it's an anachronism. At the time I am, it's illogical that revolting slave cannot be stronger than my strongest militia.

Well, egypt archer fell for it.

Some tactics that didn't work because barb team turnset is weirdly located amongst normal AI teams while IBT.

I'm richer than Croesus itself. Go to hell Croesus! Don't look at me!

Finally my sentry hunter went woodsmanII. Good!

Argghhh! BAD LUCK. It's a miracle that insurgent attacked my warrior instead of the settler.

A great tech indeed. And Hatshe doesn't have it yet! But I prone to retain it a little to assure the world project to be under celtic banner. BUT a problem arises. The capital is near a growth of population. We need one more happiness. For now, only the Small Oracle comes to mind, but I want to keep for a good tech. Like the critical one that allows ROADS!

 

[Manco Capac]

Now! The strategic game starts because we are allowed to make settlers! I think the present settler should be settled on that marsh in a way we can work that forest deer.

Some discussions?

 

[lymond]

wow, that was a marathon. You are truly the Slavemaster!

I thought we might settle west for the horses. You can build horses a rush stuff. Good way to get stuff up fast in new cities are rush wonders. But anywhere is good really

You know we can just avoid growth until or adjust tiles to stagnate until we get more happiness.

 

[Manco Capac]

As far I recall, we cannot build horse-based units until that tech that also unlocks roads. A why that tech is critical. We cannot build roads (no way to connect horses) and chariots are not unlocked yet. The tech that unlocks both chariots (BTW, regular chariots don't require horses as funny as it sounds, it's the later version (stronger) or archer chariots) and roads is really expensive. We need to use the mini-oracle for this. I had hope to use the Great Oracle, but we don't have lead resource, sadly. Our lands are food rich and forest rich, but resource variety lacks...a lot!