[Extension] Pineappledan Tweaks for VP

[N.Core]

Whoopsie, a little minor fix.
Wrong insertion on Unit_ClassUpgrades.

A few changes on the last part of the code:

CREATE TRIGGER EEVP_AdventurerCommandoClassUpgrade_Replace
AFTER INSERT ON Unit_ClassUpgrades
WHEN NEW.UnitType = 'UNIT_EE_ADVENTURER'
BEGIN
    UPDATE Unit_ClassUpgrades SET UnitClassType = 'UNITCLASS_COMMANDO' WHERE UnitType IN (SELECT Type FROM Units WHERE Class = 'UNITCLASS_EE_ADVENTURER');
END;

Also, an experimental fix because I haven't tested this though:

CREATE TRIGGER EEVP_AdventurerCommandoFix
AFTER INSERT ON Units
WHEN NEW.Type IN (SELECT Type FROM Units WHERE Class = 'UNITCLASS_EE_ADVENTURER')
BEGIN
    UPDATE Units SET ObsoleteTech = 'TECH_RAILROAD', GoodyHutUpgradeUnitClass = 'UNITCLASS_COMMANDO'
    WHERE Type IN (SELECT Type FROM Units WHERE Class = 'UNITCLASS_EE_ADVENTURER');
END;

CREATE TRIGGER EEVP_AdventurerCommandoClassUpgrade_Replace
AFTER INSERT ON Unit_ClassUpgrades
WHEN NEW.UnitType IN (SELECT Type FROM Units WHERE Class = 'UNITCLASS_EE_ADVENTURER')
BEGIN
    UPDATE Unit_ClassUpgrades SET UnitClassType = 'UNITCLASS_COMMANDO' WHERE UnitType = NEW.UnitType;
END;

Let me know if this method also works.
(UPDATE) This method worked, but a little redundant if there isn't any mod that adds a unique unit for EE_ADVENTURER.

 

[pineappledan]

Is it cool if I incorporate this into the base mod, @N.Core ?

 

[N.Core]

Is it cool if I incorporate this into the base mod, @N.Core ?

Well, it's up to you.

This code only works if you enabled EEVP because there is "EXISTS" code, so it doesn't change anything if EE_ADVENTURER doesn't exists.
And also the TRIGGER only works if there is EE_ADVENTURER unit added into the game.

I recommend you to incorporate the non-experimental code into the base mod.

 

[Stalker0]

I did a run where I tried Hoover dam. The stadium bonus definitely feels a lot later than the Research lab for smithsonian. I will also say that if you don't care about tourism that much, Smithsonian just feels much stronger overall than the Hoover. Next game I'm trying an Artistry + Industry CV push to see how that goes.

 

[pineappledan]

just added the Explorer obsolete tech update. No other changes.

I was contemplating adding the Korea changes as discussed in the leader thread, but for now I feel there is enough going on in this mod as it is

 

[Stalker0]

So after a game where Incan's Cbows just murdered my longswords.... I think I'd rather have my cover longswords back

 

[bahamut19]

So after a game where Incan's Cbows just murdered my longswords.... I think I'd rather have my cover longswords back

If you have a Barracks you can still use the promotion for Cover I. Inca always does well with ranged units since they can move on hills as if they are roads. Longswords will always be at a disadvantage if in rough terrain against Inca.

 

[Stalker0]

If you have a Barracks you can still use the promotion for Cover I. Inca always does well with ranged units since they can move on hills as if they are roads. Longswords will always be at a disadvantage if in rough terrain against Inca.

Yeah but there is a big difference between being able to generate Cover II lswords against a strong ranged force like inca. Mathwise, the cover longswords take 4 less damage a strike (18 vs 22 on average). That's enough to tank a whole extra bow hit in most cases.

 

[pineappledan]

I also knocked a CS point off swords. Are inca's CBows carrying forward dazed?

 

[phantomaxl1207]

I also knocked a CS point off swords. Are inca's CBows carrying forward dazed?

Yes, Dazed carries over.

 

[KittyKat3120]

just added the Explorer obsolete tech update. No other changes.

I was contemplating adding the Korea changes as discussed in the leader thread, but for now I feel there is enough going on in this mod as it is

I look forward to the eventual addition of korea changes thou , i just played korea and felt a change may be needed with a small buff

 

[Stalker0]

So I've played several games as Washington (like 6-7) with these changes. Beyond the numerical balance, lets talk about how the change "feels".

At the end of the day, what I've noticed is that the 3 extra buildings.... they just feel like some bonuses, they don't feel like they are truly shaping the civ. That is what made the 3 buildings for Venice so interesting, they push Venice in some very interesting directions and really feel like they tailor the civ. Ultimately I am not getting that same feeling for the Amercian buildings currently. Its not that the bonuses aren't good, they just aren't truly changing my gameplay in any concrete way.

Right now, the -25% plot cost reducer is actually the most interesting part, as this allows Washington's second land grab power (the ability to take other peoples tiles) to really "work", for now its cheap enough that you can go to town. For example, if you just made Independence hall "-5% plot costs, era scaling", and I had no extra buildings... I think that would do more for me as far as shaping the civ because now it magnifies Washington's UA....so I get a "second tile rush". This also further entices Washington to do mid game expansions to capitalize on the cost resets with extra cheap plots, allowing them to get lots of infrastructure set up in their pioneer cities in short order.

So that's my general feel of the civ at this stage.

 

[pineappledan]

Cool. Thanks for the feedback.

Is it just a matter of increasing the numbers? Does America need much more oomph at that level or are you getting along fine?
Even the free artillery don't feel impactful?

Some other bonuses perhaps?
Increase the GPPs on Smithsonian and Hoover Dam
Increase the GG points on the Commissioned officer promotion to 200%
Hoover Dam - Free Hydroelectric Plant in City (in addition to existing 2 on river tiles)

I entertained the idea that Smithsonian could give free museums in all cities, West point could give free Military Academies, and Hoover could give Hotels, but I'm not sure if that's a good route to go.

 

[Stalker0]

I'm finding the civ strong enough, though I find the standard version pretty solid as well. Its just that the benefits are not driving me to do anything I wasn't doing before. I'm just staying the course, which is what the OP version does.

Smithsonian: I already build museums, and I already have encouragement to do Wonder Building through America's UA, and I already want polices....since this is generally when the ideology is first getting pushed I am already culture focused. So I'm just getting bonuses for doing what I would do even if this building didn't exist. So I am stronger, but there's nothing interesting about it.

Hoover Dam: As this NW pushes for CV....I am going to build stadiums anyway, and of course I want factories. The only thing I could see is this maybe pushes me towards the north side and stadiums quicker than normal...maybe

West: This is likely the closest, the free artillery is nice but honestly at that point in the game I have so many range +1 g guns (most of them already having indirect fire)..... that the wow factor of artillery isn't there for America like it is for many other civs. Aka I've already have had the power of range 3 indirect fire for some time. The artillery mainly act as a "win faster" mechanic, allowing me to take down cities a good bit quicker than a hoard of g guns can. One subtle benefit here is that America often wants to delay ballistics....because you don't want to give up your ability to mass produce +1 range Minutemen -> convert to g guns. So having your artillery covered while delaying the ballistics push is nice.

Commissioned officers, I've mainly been using it for my front line fusilier/rifleman. One super tank that holds back the line while my army of ranged death just eliminates everything in sight. I used to move the GG to give my g guns some extra oomph but it was too tedious, so I just left it on the frontline unit. America has a sneaky UU...on paper its not as sexy as some other UUs but as the promotions are gained, and as they become g guns.... suddenly you have an entire army of the strongest unit of the era.... all with +1 range. You basically just kill everything at that point. So the commissioned officers is just ensuring that my front line unit is even more incredible than normal.


So to repeat, none of the bonuses here are "bad". Its just that I'm not being pushed in any new directions, its not causing me to go "well now that I have this bonus I will do X instead of Y". And I think that was the original complaint about America that started the whole discussion, it wasn't that they were weak per say, just "dull".

Like I said, the most exciting thing about it for me right now is the tile buying boost. Its fun to just grab 4 GPTIs that the AI left on their borders....and then slap down a GG to push even deeper into their territory, its like a mini lebensraum.

 

[Stalker0]

One idea is to focus on America's money. Thematically, a big part of what has defined America's "empire status" in the modern time, from WWII on....has been its economic might. While we can argue about comparing America's culture to other civs, or its science....there is no question that from WWII through the 20th century, America was the richest country on earth.

That is already a part of its UA...but the UA does start to falter over time as tiles begin to run out. The -25% plot opens up buying enemy tiles as an option....but its still only a once in a while thing. You could consider opening up the UA with the unique buildings to give more benefits to raw gold production or gold expenditure.... similar to how Venice has the ability to gain votes through GPT. Spitball examples (numbers are just there for example purposes):

Smithsonian: Gain science equal to 10% of gold production.

Hoover: Whenever a building is invested, 10% of the gold cost becomes a hammer bonus in all cities.

West Point: Units gain +10 XP when they are upgraded.


With this model, America now becomes really focus on gold.....which is not a normal strategy. Money money money, its all about the bling....I can never have enough, because the more I have the stronger I get.

 

[pineappledan]

Other other question I have is are they each still an improvement over the current model? current smithsonian is a late unlock that singles America out as a CV civ. Is the lack of strong signal from having 3 wonders at least preferable to the current situation? I know you said that none of the 3 are really impactful, but are the new 3 wonders at least more impactful than the current smithsonian?

Smithsonian: Gain science equal to 10% of gold production.

I assume this would be on empire. Pretty doable, but would require dummies for now, which is fine, since were already using dummies for a part of this at the moment

Hoover: Whenever a building is invested, 10% of the gold cost becomes a hammer bonus in all cities.

If you have 10 cities, that would be 100% conversion of to . It would be more reasonable to just have it as a converter in any city, but only affecting that 1 city.
I would be worried about giving America a second instant to yield converter. This would functionally replace the tile purchase. Maybe another yield instead, like 10% and in the city, and add some to the freshwater tile bonus?

West Point: Units gain +10 XP when they are upgraded.

Any bonus on upgrading from a building would be entirely new code. Maybe instead of XP, you could get and for each level when you upgrade a unit, scaling exponentially like Japan’s on levels? That way the scaling is negligible on newly-built units.

I think I would just as soon look for some other bonus for this though. Maybe instead of unit upgrades, which might force the player to make suboptimal choices, the West Point’s bonus could scale off unit maintenance or supply usage?

 

[HungryForFood]

Any bonus on upgrading from a building would be entirely new code.

VP has a Lua hook for unit upgraded, UnitUpgraded(PlayerID iUnitOwner, UnitID iOldUnit, UnitID iNewUnit, bool bGoodyHut), it is possible.

When Lua hook triggers, check if player has the wonder, if yes grant XP.

 

[pineappledan]

Yeah, I just meant new dll code, and I had hoped to implement all of this America stuff just with sql

 

[Stalker0]

Other other question I have is are they each still an improvement over the current model? current smithsonian is a late unlock that singles America out as a CV civ. Is the lack of strong signal from having 3 wonders at least preferable to the current situation? I know you said that none of the 3 are really impactful, but are the new 3 wonders at least more impactful than the current smithsonian?

A great question. Let me try to dig in.

Hoover Dam
So in theory, the Hoover Dam provides a similar tourism bonus to OG Smithsonian, but with a wider bent. Does it "work"? My gut says that OG Smithsonian actually provides more Tourism overall (even for wide play) for a few reasons:

• Provides a Great Work modifier, which is a major tourism boost.
• Most of your world wonders are in the capital anyway, so a 50% boost there is worth a lot more than 25% everywhere.

The only time I could see Hoover being a superior CV wonder would be if you had massive forests, so the zoo bonus gets heavily multiplied across your civ.


New Smith vs OG Smith
For an American player opting to go SV or DV over CV....the New Smith offers a superior option. Though its acquired a bit later than OG Smith, the real gem is the policy unlock science bonus. That a minimum 1500 science a policy unlock. So the building is probably giving 2x-3x more science than OG Smith overall. So clearly the new Smith is more powerful. Is that "needed".....I think it does give America more flexibility, without such a focus on CV or Domination play.

West Point
For an America pushing late game conquest, how does West Point stack up to OG Smith? You get a slightly weaker economic engine in return from getting a boost to artillery and a stronger frontline. As I mentioned before, I don't think it changes the final result....but a West Point warring America is stronger than OG America imo. So again it pushes them a little more along that line.


So I think the 3 building America is more flexible in terms of WC, but weaker as a CV civ. Its not making me play differently, but I am just getting natural bonuses that help me push towards specific directions, so I have more options on how I want to finish the game as America. I do value flexibility in terms of civ power, so I think its fair to say this America is "stronger" than OG America. Is it "cooler"....if you want to play a non-CV America it is....otherwise its about the same.

 

[pineappledan]

I notice you didn't comment on the -5% Policy cost reduction from the Independence hall. It's a subtle bonus, but it probably shaved a good number of turns off your policy progression.

Hoover Dam
So in theory, the Hoover Dam provides a similar tourism bonus to OG Smithsonian, but with a wider bent. Does it "work"? My gut says that OG Smithsonian actually provides more Tourism overall (even for wide play) for a few reasons:

• Provides a Great Work modifier, which is a major tourism boost.
• Most of your world wonders are in the capital anyway, so a 50% boost there is worth a lot more than 25% everywhere.

The only time I could see Hoover being a superior CV wonder would be if you had massive forests, so the zoo bonus gets heavily multiplied across your civ.

So the raw Tourism from the building and wonder modifiers is just a complete non-factor I guess?

New Smith vs OG Smith
For an American player opting to go SV or DV over CV....the New Smith offers a superior option. Though its acquired a bit later than OG Smith, the real gem is the policy unlock science bonus. That a minimum 1500 science a policy unlock. So the building is probably giving 2x-3x more science than OG Smith overall. So clearly the new Smith is more powerful. Is that "needed".....I think it does give America more flexibility, without such a focus on CV or Domination play.

I kinda prefer your => converter idea here, so I'm leaning towards replacing that burst on policy adoption. Hope you weren’t too attached to it

With G's Production refund on free buildings, I'm wondering if that can be gamed for a niche burst from the buildings?
Smithsonian could give a free Museum in the city (or give a burst of of the same value)
West Point could give a free Military Academy (or give a burst of of the same value, thank goodness G never followed our recommendations and give a free MA to Brandenburg Gate)
Hoover could give a free Hydroelectric dam

Hoover's is wayyyy stronger, but West Point gives more free stuff to from a raw production standpoint, and Hoover, as you say, is the weakest of the 3 right now, overall.