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Pineappledan Tweaks for VP

Discussion in 'Mods Repository' started by pineappledan, Apr 2, 2021.

  1. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Aug 9, 2017
    Alberta, Canada

    This mod is a general tweaks mod to test ideas and balance changes that I think would improve base Vox Populi. It contains all sorts of changes to civilizations and units

    Spoiler Unit Changes :

    Swordsman Line Changes:
    I reduced the base :c5strength:CS of swordsmen to 16. This gives a little more space to vary the strength of unique swordsmen:
    • Legion remains at 18:c5strength:CS
    • Mohawk remains at 17:c5strength:CS
    • Kris is lowered to 16:c5strength:CS, same as base swordsman

    Swordsmen and Longswords no longer start with the Cover I promotion. Enough other units get Cover I for free; it felt repetitive.
    I have replaced free Cover I with a new free promotion for the Sword line:
    +10% Flanking Bonus
    +10% Defense​
    This splits the difference between the old Shock I and the Cover I bonuses, giving a little of both. Swords are powerful weapons because of their flexibility and variability in tactics, so I wanted to reflect that.

    Skirmisher Line Changes:
    Chariots Movement penalties are back, but less punishing
    Instead of ending their tunr in Rough terrain, Chariots use 1 additional movement in rough terrain
    Chariots have high CS and RCS for their unit line, feeling a lot more like front-line tanks​

    All Non-Chariot Skirmishers have 5 base movement
    All Skirmishers RCS has been reduced slightly
    Skirmisher doctrine (+/- strength in Open/Rough terrain) has been replaced with a new Skirmisher promotion:
    Hit & Run
    +50% when defending against ranged attacks​
    Repetitive with Cover I, yes. But it is necessary to give the skirmishers some defense because their abysmal RCS means they die too easily against ranged units.​

    Spoiler Ancient-Medieval CS changes :

    • Archer: 4:c5strength:6:c5rangedstrength: => 6:c5strength:7:c5rangedstrength:
      • Slinger: 4:c5strength:7:c5rangedstrength: => 6:c5strength:8:c5rangedstrength:
    • Composite Bow: 11:c5strength:11:c5rangedstrength: => 10:c5strength:11:c5rangedstrength:
      • Atlatlist: 11:c5strength:11:c5rangedstrength: => 11:c5strength:13:c5rangedstrength:
      • Bowman: 12:c5strength:13:c5rangedstrength: => 12:c5strength:12:c5rangedstrength:
    • Scout: 10:c5strength:CS
    • Maori Warrior: 21:c5strength: => 22:c5strength: (to match longsword)
    • Berserker: 20:c5strength:=> 22:c5strength: (to match longsword)

    Spoiler New Scout Line units and promotion rework :

    I have replaced the Zeppelin in the scout line with a different unit:
    Available at Railroads

    32:c5strength: CS (6 less than Fusilier)
    3:c5moves: Moves
    +25% to yields from ruins
    Ignores terrain Costs
    XP from exploring
    XP from pillaging
    Commando Promotion : +25% Attack. 60% Chance to withdraw from Melee.

    I have also changed the Trailblazer III and Survivalism III promotions to accommodate the new Commando:
    Trailblazer III
    +10% CS outside Friendly lands
    Allows Embarkation
    Can enter Mountain Tiles
    Can use Enemy Roads

    Survivalism III
    Heals every turn regardless of action
    Does not cost movement to Pillage​
    I felt these changes were more thematic. It solves a small problem where there is currently no melee units that can chase the Inca into mountains and capture cities surrounded by mountains. It gives a bit of flexibility in the early game for civs who are focusing on the bottom of the tech tree, but don't want to delay their exploration. It also moves all the movement bonuses onto trailblazer and all the HP and survivability bonuses onto Survivalism.

    I also redistributed many of the free promotions on late-game scout line units:
    • XP from Pillage now given to all units from Commando onward
    • Bonus vs Siege now given to all units from Paratrooper onward
    • All Scout line units now ignore terrain cost (previously lost on paratrooper onward)
    • No cost to pillage removed from paratrooper/special forces and XCOM (moved to Survivalism III)
    • Embarkation vision, embarkation defense, amphibious, and bonus vs gunpowder removed from Special Forces
    • XP from scouting no longer available to scout units (was free promotion on Zeppelin)
    • Embarkation Defense now lost on upgrade from Explorer (Embarked Vision stays on upgrade)
    The hope is to slim down the massive diversity of promotions that turned upgrading scouts into a free promotion bonanza, but keeping 1-2 of the more interesting/distinct bonuses to move forward.

    Spoiler New Zeppelin Line :

    The Zeppelin has been moved and expanded into its own unit line:

    Airship line traits:
    • Unique unit combat type - Land unit Domain
    • 4 base sight
    • Hover
    • Can enter all tile types (Does not need to embark in ocean)
    • Can only attack cities
    • Gains XP from spotting in enemy terrain
    • Has Amphibious (no penalties attacking cities over river/from coast)
    • Can detect Submarines (note: immune to subs, because they are technically land units)
    • +33% Defense
    • All Interception promotions -- AA guns' Anti-Air and Fighters' Ace Pilot -- give +33% vs Airships for each level

    Dirigible (previously "Zeppelin", which was an anachronistic misnomer)
    unlocks at Steam Power

    2:c5moves: Moves
    Base Land Air Defense 2
    unlocks at Radio

    2:c5moves: Moves
    Base Land Air Defense 3
    unlocks at Telecommunications

    4:c5moves: Moves
    Base Land Air Defense 5
    Has Air Recon (has unobstructed vision of everything within a 6 tile radius)

    Promotion lines:
    Night Raid I => Night Raid II => Night Raid III
    +50% vs cities per level

    Surveillance I => Surveillance II => Surveillance III
    Double Movement in Coast & Ocean => +1 :c5moves:Moves and Sight => +33% Defense and ZOC

    Leaf promotions:
    Land Air Defense I / II / III / IV
    Medic I / II
    Night Terror: +100% vs Cities and heals +5HP
    Air Repair: Heals every turn regardless of action
    High Altitude: Reduces all incoming damage by 10

    Spoiler Civilization Tweaks :

    Spoiler America :

    America Changes:
    UB: Independence Hall
    125:c5production:, scaling with cities
    requires 35:c5citizen: Citizens

    Available at Architecture
    does not require an Opera House in the City

    1:c5culture: for every 4:c5citizen: Citizens in the city
    +10%:c5culture: Culture in the City
    -10% :c5unhappy:Boredom in all Cities on Empire
    Contains 3 :greatwork:Great Works of Art/Artifact Slots (Art from your Civilization; 3:c5culture:3:c5gold: if themed)
    -5% :c5culture: Culture cost on Policies
    Unlocks 3 additional National Wonders

    Hoover Dam
    Available at Electricity
    Mutually exclusive

    2:c5gold:2:c5production: to Every World Wonder on Empire
    +5:c5gold:Gold and :c5production:Production to Hotels and Stadiums on Empire
    -25% :c5gold:Gold cost for Purchasing tiles
    10% of :c5gold:Gold in all cities is converted to :c5production:Production
    FREE Hydro Plant in this City
    +25% of the :c5culture: Culture from World Wonders, Natural Wonders, and :c5culture: Tiles in all cities' contributes to :tourism:Tourism Output.
    :trade:Trade Routes move 100% faster and give a :tourism:Tourism boost on completion of :trade:Trade Routes to other Civs.

    Smithsonian Institute
    Available at Biology
    Mutually exclusive

    2:c5science:2:c5culture: to Every World Wonder on Empire
    +5:c5science:Science and :c5culture:Culture to Museums and Research Labs on Empire
    -25% :c5gold:Gold cost for Purchasing tiles
    10% of :c5gold:Gold in all cities is converted to :c5culture:Culture
    FREE Museum in all Cities on Empire

    West Point
    Available at Replaceable Parts
    Mutually exclusive

    2:c5science:2:c5production: to Every World Wonder on Empire
    5:c5science: Science and :c5production:Production to Military Academies and Military Bases on Empire
    -25% :c5gold:Gold cost for Purchasing tiles
    10% of :c5gold:Gold in all cities is converted to :c5science: Science
    3 FREE Iron
    3 FREE Artillery Units appear next to this City
    Land units on empire receive the Splash I promotion

    Spoiler Mongolia :

    Mongol changes:
    UA: Mongol Terror
    • +100% yields from bullying City-States (loses Ignores Alliance and Protection penalties when bullying)
    • Skirmisher line units have +1 Attack (loses +2 moves and ZOC bonus)
    UGG: Khan
    • Can build Ordo unique tile improvement
    • Cannot build Citadels
    • In addition to current bonuses (+movement and medic), acts as mobile citadel: deals 10 damage to all adjacent enemy units each turn.

    UGPTI: Ordo
    • Can be built on any land tile not adjacent to another Ordo (same as citadel)
    • Can be built adjacent to friendly territory. Claims adjacent tiles (same as citadel)
    • 1:c5food::c5production::c5gold::c5culture: (vs 1:c5production::c5science: from citadel)
    • Gains yields from techs/policies/wonders the same as Citadels and other UIs The only difference is that techs that give citadels :c5science:Science (Chemistry & Stealth) give Ordos :c5culture:Culture instead.
    • 50% tile :c5strength:Defense (same as fort), no Damage to adjacent enemy units
    • Units that move onto an Ordo gain +1:c5moves:Movement that turn.
    I liked the idea that a unique great person deserves a unique great person tile. This helps Mongol's UU feel more unique even if you are only keeping 2-3 alive at any time, because they make something different from a standard Citadel. The Ordo also enhances the Mongols' movement, which is more fitting than a static defenses for a nomadic people.

    Spoiler China :

    UA: Mandate of Heaven
    +1:c5food: and :c5culture: and a 'We Love the Empress Day' in All Cities whenever a city gains 5 :c5citizen:Citizens. Bonus yields are halved on Era Change. +10%:c5food: and :c5gold: in Cities during 'We Love the Empress Day'.

    UB: Paper Maker (Library)
    +2:c5science: +1:c5culture:
    No Maintenance
    1 Scientist slot
    -1:c5unhappy: Illiteracy
    1 Specialist does not generate :c5unhappy: Urbanization
    +2:c5science: and +2:c5gold: in this City whenever you create a :greatwork:Great Work. Bonus yields are halved on Era Change.

    Moves all the WLTED bonuses onto the UA, and moves the GW trigger onto the Paper Maker, allowing China to diversify its yields. This solves the turn 1 :c5culture:Culture problem, while still letting china get a culture boost. It also solves the problem of the Paper Maker being a really boring building that doesn't feel like it adds any new tools or incentives to the civ.

    This also gives China more incentive to grow tall/thick, and puts less emphasis on conquest. The WLTED has been increased to 10 turns, since it is a little harder to trigger.

    Spoiler England :

    UNW: White Tower (replaces Ironworks):
    available at Machinery
    requires Forge
    +10 for :c5production: Production, +2 :c5culture: Culture, +2 :c5science: Science, +2 :c5gold: Gold
    +3:c5strength: City Defense
    +2 Iron Resources
    +1 :c5culture: Culture to all Castles, Armories, and Constabularies on Empire
    Contains 1 :greatwork: great work of art/artifact slot, which comes filled with the :greatwork:Crown Jewels great work
    25 :c5science:Science and :c5gold:Gold for every building :c5production: Construction in this city, scaling with Era.
    25 :c5science:Science and :c5gold:Gold when you perform an Advanced Action, steal a Great Work or Technology, complete a City-State coup or Election Rigging, or kill a foreign Spy in this City (+5:c5gold:/:c5science: for Advanced Actions), all scaling with Era.

    Ship of the Line loses Breacher. Gains Logistics promotion

    • Atlatl Strike reduced to +33% vs wounded units, but it now stays on Upgrade
    • Iklwa no longer gives XP for standing in enemy territory
    • Zulu now have both tribute demand threat-enhancing abilities: +50% military strength when demanding tribute, and they ignore Defensive Pledges and Alliances.
    • the Impi's bonus vs Gunpowder and the ranged strike before melee are now split into 2 promotions. The Bonus vs Gunpowder stays on Upgrade.
    • Naga Malla gets Accuracy I for free
    • Naresuan's Elephant gets General Stacking bonus for free
    • General Stacking bonus increased to 25%
    • Carolean no longer has General Stacking bonus
    • Brazilwood Camp no longer requires an adjacent luxury; it requires no Fresh Water access instead
    • UA gives +20%:c5science:Science during :c5goldenage:Golden Ages instead of +30%:c5greatperson:Great Person Rate
    • Seowon changes:
      • No longer gives +15%:c5science:Science during :c5goldenage:Golden Ages
      • moved back to Education
      • Base yields changed to 3:c5science:2:c5culture:
      • Gives +2:c5science: to all GPTIs near the city

    Spoiler Power Plants Rework :

    Reworks the 4 existing power plant buildings, and adds a 5th: the Tidal plant.
    • All power plants now require Factory (previously, only Solar and Nuclear did)
    • All Power plants now give +10% to Yield processes
    • Nuclear plant stays as an option with no terrain augmentation, offering greater GP generation and a higher base production instead. Great for a city focused on specialists
    • Solar plant re-focused to production on landlocked and desert cities.
    • Hydroelectric Plant split with Tidal Plant into Freshwater and saltwater focuses. Hydro gives more yields than wind if you have lots of freshwater access. Tidal gives very high yields for island and ocean-focused cities.
    Power Plant details. Changes in Bold
    • Hydro Plant (Requires 1 Aluminum, City must be on a River):
      • +10 :c5production:
      • +3:c5production:3:c5gold:3:c5food: to River and Lake tiles
      • +10% to all Yields Processes in City
    • Wind Plant (Requires 1 Aluminum):
      • +10 :c5production:
      • +1 :c5production:1:c5culture:1:c5gold: to All Tiles
      • +10% to all Yields Processes in City
    • Nuclear Plant (Requires 1 Uranium):
      • +20 :c5production:, +33%:c5production:
      • +25%:c5greatperson: Great Person Rate in city
      • +1:c5culture:1:c5science:1:c5production:1:c5gold: to all Specialists in City
      • +10% to all Yields Processes in City
    • Solar Plant (Requires 1 Aluminum, City must be on or next to Desert):
      • +10 :c5production:, +10%:c5production:
      • +1:c5production:1:c5science: to Non-Desert Land tiles
      • +3:c5production:3:c5science: to Desert tiles
      • +10% to all Yields Processes in City

    • Tidal Plant (Requires 1 Aluminum, City must be on Coast)
      • Unlocked at Alternative Energy
      • +10 :c5production:
      • +2:c5production:2:c5science:2:c5gold:2:c5food: to Coast and Ocean tiles
      • +10% to all Yields Processes in City

    I made this mod to mainly to consolidate and replace my old unit and civ tweaks mods, and to move any non-relevant balance changes out of the 4UC mod.

    If you only want to try 1 or 2 parts of this mod (eg. you're only interested in the scout/zeppelin line split) then you can just delete the folders or rename the files of things you aren't interested in.

    • Ordo Model and icon: TarcisioCM
    • Commando unit flag: TPangolin
    • Commando Model: Civitar
    • Zeppelin Model: snafusmith
    • Predator Drone model and unit flag: SMAN
    • Tidal Turbine icon - Scottish Energy Industries Council
    • All other code and art assets: pineappledan

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jun 12, 2021
  2. Padre19

    Padre19 Warlord

    Oct 4, 2016
    Table UNITS do not have an UnitClassType column.
    CREATE TRIGGER VP_ExplorerCommandoClassUpgrade_Replace
    AFTER INSERT ON Unit_ClassUpgrades
    UPDATE Units SET UnitClassType = 'UNITCLASS_COMMANDO' WHERE UnitType = NEW.UnitType;
  3. Asterix Rage

    Asterix Rage Warlord

    Jun 6, 2010
    I believe there are numerous ways to add a AA unit. Many beautiful models are available.
    And you should take care of EEVP...
  4. Padre19

    Padre19 Warlord

    Oct 4, 2016
    Maybe an invisible drone? :smoke:
    INSERT INTO InvisibleInfos
    (Type, Description)

    INSERT INTO Language_en_US (Tag, Text)

  5. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Aug 9, 2017
    Alberta, Canada
    Thank you good catch.
    I have updated OP with a new version that fixes upgrade bugs on the Commando and the Zeppelin
    Thank you for reminding me, this mod is not compatible with EE right now because of the Adventurer.

    I do not personally use EE -- I see no reason to make my games even longer when I can barely finish them now -- so I wouldn't be a good person to take on EE
  6. Padre19

    Padre19 Warlord

    Oct 4, 2016
    UNITCLASS_GADRAUHT still have Cover I
    MODINFO file
    <EntryPoint type="InGameUIAddin" file="ThiccChina.lua">
    should be
    <EntryPoint type="InGameUIAddin" file="Civilizations/ThiccChina.lua">
    pineappledan likes this.
  7. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Aug 9, 2017
    Alberta, Canada
    Caught a bug with the Songhai Mandekalu. CS changes removed for all horseman line units (never changed horses from base VP; I just had unitcombat placeholders in the code). The Placeholders were interacting with CSs for custom civs and other mods that changed the horsemen, and reverted them. Specifically, 4UC moves the Songhai Mandekalu Cavalry back to be a Knight replacement. If this mod loaded after 4UC, it would set its CS back to 14 :p

    fixed and reuploaded.
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2021
  8. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

    Dec 17, 2017
    Why lower the Kris?
  9. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Dec 31, 2005
    My quick and dirty on these changes. Obviously this is a modmod so if people like the shift in balance with this changes, go for it. These are just my general thoughts.

    1) I like the sidearm idea, I've noted before that I am good with a swordsman CS nerf if its replaced by a proper promotion. Now I don't think this promotion does the job, so I still don't agree with the swords nerf (but no reason to rehash that argument), but conceptually I like the bonuses the sidearm gives.

    The name is a bit odd, perhaps just call it "Heavy Infantry". After all, realistically thats what swordsman are, they aren't just guys with swords, its infantry in strong armor wielding professional weapons, as compared to the guys with sticks and sharp language:)

    2) Skirmisher Change: I tried out your mod a bunch when you first floated this concept. Ultimately to me it had the same issue as most of the skirmisher changes I've tried, I still don't think it carves out a real niche for the unit. Now for the actual skirmisher itself, 5 movement can do a lot, lets you cover a lot of ground, and does give it some purpose.

    Past that, I generally rely on the scouting line if I need to cross open country without roads, and for attacks I would rather send a heavy horse that gets there a little slower but actually can do the job when it gets there. So in the past I always had trouble justifying the horses for the unit when I tried this last time.

    So far, I think the logistic skirmisher concept remains my favorite alternative (which I know you have tried before as well). I do think it makes skirmishers a little OP, but its close, probably close enough as an alternative.

    3) Archer: A little more CS makes sense, I do think they are a tad squishy, especially when that first barb horsemen comes sniffing around. But I really don't think they need more RCS, I don't want to see the old archer city rush come back.

    4) C Bow: Already do really good damage, they are to me the staple unit of the classical era, moreso than spears and swords.

    5) Atlatist: Already does +50% against wounded, they are already murder machines with proper use. A unit with base 21 RCS in early classical seems way too good.

    6) Hoplite: Having played Greece a lot recently, 14 CS hoplite is already really good when you use its promotions. The trick of course is you need to rush very fast to them with Greece, as spears start to obsolete as offensive units as C bows come online. But a strong hoplite rush already murders the competition. I could see some changes to Greece UA or UB to give them some staying power past the initial phase, but they don't need more power in ancient.

    7) I like the commando concept a lot, and I like conceptually the change in Trailblazer to allow mountain crossing. I agree that at some point in the game units should be able to cross mountains.

    8) The drone line is interesting, I definitely think it could be just split back out its own thing, as its decidedly different from the other changes which are just tweaks, not entire no concepts.
    Last edited: May 2, 2021
  10. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Aug 9, 2017
    Alberta, Canada
    I hope to spark a debate about what a decent Sword line promotion might look like. I wanted to stress flexibility and get away from the repeptitive cover bonuses
    With the latest pass, taking a cue from logistics skirmishers and adding the +50% ranged defense, I think I'm pretty content with my version. I feel they have as good a niche as they can hope to have provided you get a certain start. I guess we shall agree to disagree on this point.
    The XP penalty is a bit funny to play around; It's not comfortable to me.

    I also don't like skirmishers' main role being as another damage-dealer. It doesn't feel true to the history and tactics of skirmishing, where the main point is to harass and disrupt while avoiding damage.
    I was disappointed when CS dipped below 6 again. Barbarian Horsemen can 1 shot archers from fog if you are unlucky at that level.

    Maybe 6:c5strength:/6:c5rangedstrength: is more reasonable, I'm not sure. It could stand to be tested more.
    CBows go from 11:c5strength:11:c5rangedstrength: to 10:c5strength:12:c5rangedstrength: with these changes, so they trade some survivability for more offense. Once again, it could stand to be tested a bit more.

    I prefer the archer line to have more RCS than CS up until gatling/machine guns. The comp bows are a bit too hardy at the moment -- bowmen with good survivability was supposed to be Babylon's thing exclusively.
    Perhaps nerfing the CBows to 10:c5strength:11:c5rangedstrength: would be best; you and GrazyG are adamant that they are already the most dangerous Classical units.
    I nerfed Atlatl strike to 33% vs wounded and let it stay on upgrade. Check my Civs change spoiler

    The current state of the atlatl in VP is atrocious. Same base CS/RCS as the comp bow and 1 unique promotion that doesn't stay on upgrade. Very bland.
    The Hoplite's unique promotions are comparatively weak, so bumping the CS to 15 felt fair. I can lower it back down if people think the 14CS is preferable.

    Any thoughts on the mongol change?
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2021
  11. Denn

    Denn Chieftain

    Apr 5, 2019
    Thanks for yash great efforts first of all.

    Just wanted to comment about mongol changes. According to historical data, their skirmish tactics were based on quick hit-run tactic. Thus, mongol deserves an extra movement ,+1 movement at least , reflecting the tactic mongols used.
  12. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Dec 31, 2005
    Cbow at 10 CS 11 RCS might be good. The issue for the unit is it is basically your ranged unit for a loooong time. It has to carry you through classical and a good part of medieval, and while its super strong in classical, knights trounce them already at 11 CS, let along 10. But I feel we are already in the state where if the enemy pulls out knights your cbows have to run for the hills, so whether its 11 or 10 probably doesn't make much difference.

    Ah I missed the Atlatl change, ok I'm less concerned, its still pretty strong but doesn't quite have the same punch. I personally don't have as much issue with UUs that don't upgrade their promotions for civs that aren't generally warmongers in their kit. For example, Siam's elephant doesn't upgrade, which is fine by me, they are super strong when they come out, but Siam has plenty of other bonuses. Maya is similar, the cbow lasts a long time in the game, they have a really nice UU, but honestly their UI is probably their best part, so I've never thought have a limited UU was really an issue.

    On Hoplite, at 15 CS with two of them, you start out with a 18 CS before other promotions, stronger than the "overpowered" 17 CS Swordsman:) And the sword comes out much much MUCH later.

    On Mongol, I want to make sure I understand the changes:

    1) Skirmishers +1 attack, so they all have logistics effectively? Or is this +1 CS?

    2) For the ordo, so I get the +1 movement any time I move into the square? Aka I have 4 moves, I move 2 to get to the ordo, I now have 3 moves remaining? If I chain ordo's does the bonus keep stacking? (hehe almost like a railgun!)

    I think its a cool concept, honestly you might try removing the adjacent to other ordo restriction as well, I think that reasonable since your not getting near the same defense or attack penalty.

    I'm not keen on the Khan getting "pilum" effectively, takes something away from Rome, but I am up for some kind of extra Khan bonus.
  13. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

    Oct 14, 2016
    Lowering Cbow CS is a good idea. They take hits quite well currently, pure Cbow with no melee is actually viable.

    I would bump the hoplite promotion a little bit rather than a raw buff to it's CS. This would have less immediate benefit (hoplites are already amazing at first) but more long term impact (Greece fades quite a bit over time).

    I'd support either of those changes being added to regular VP btw.
    Hinin likes this.
  14. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Aug 9, 2017
    Alberta, Canada
    Effectively logistics, but with no RCS penalty
    I have tested it, and it works like a +1 move promotion for that turn.
    if you move over the Ordo, your 2 movement unit instantly becomes a 3 movement unit, but the new move cap doesn’t come filled with a move point. So you have to start your turn on an ordo in order to use the +1 move.
    edit: the extra move is applied as soon as the unit steps on the tile, so if you had a unit with 2/2 moves, and you use 1 move to move onto the ordo, your unit will show 2/3 moves. I still need to test 2 interactions though:
    • I don’t know if multiple Ordos can stack their movement on 1 unit in 1 turn, railgunning a unit as you put it
    • I don’t know when the movement is applied. If you use you last movement to enter an ordo on a hill, does it still give 1 move? ie. can you use the move to ignore rough penalties?

    The synergy with roads to create a Yam system of Ordos that refill your movement on roads means you can create a very mobile army of road warriors.

    I debated increasing the bonus to +2 moves, but i fear once railroads hit, Mongols would just have a system that makes it so their units can teleport inside their own borders.
    Can’t do that, because you could chain them for the culture bomb
    It works off different code. The khan can move and cause damage in the same turn. Taking the citadel effect off the ordo and making it mobile appeals to the nomadism of the civ. I also like that it gives an adjacency effect for both friendly and enemy units, so the AI should be able to use khans more effectively since placement is looser now
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2021
  15. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Dec 31, 2005
    So obviously I would need to see your current skirmishers with new RCS values to know for sure (can you tell me a few RCS numbers to give me a feel), but an extra attack with no penalty is generally the strongest combat bonus you could bestow in the game. Just to throw some quick context for you. Let me assume your skirmisher does archer damage (so 6 RCS). Against a cbow (with your new 12 RCS) at base it does ~35 damage (roughly 17.5 a shot x2). To do that with one attack, which is an effective CS of 16, a 266% RCS buff. Now it takes an extra movement, but your skimishers have plenty of move, and of course there's the double xp to consider. So it is incredibly, amazingly strong....and I really don't think you want to throw more bonuses like your new khan on top of that.

    I will say its a neat idea that Mongolia has a UA that basically turns all of its skirmisher line into UUs :)

    On the Ordo and culture bombs, while technically the human can drop its citadels to plant new ones and push boundaries, I do respect since the AI doesn't do that its a bit of an exploit, and not worth pushing into Mongolia's core kit.
  16. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Aug 9, 2017
    Alberta, Canada
    Railgunning confirmed.

    A single unit and cross multiple Ordos in a single turn and will gain the movement from each of them.
    Movement is applied after movement has been expended to enter the tile. This means that if a unit uses its last movement point to enter an Ordo on a hill, you still get +1 movement.

    In light of the Improvement MovesChange ability being everything I hoped and feared it could be, maybe the mobile citadel ability is too much... :lol:
    Combat = 8 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_CHARIOT_ARCHER';
    Combat = 12 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_MONGOLIAN_KESHIK';
    Combat = 18 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_MOUNTED_BOWMAN';
    Combat = 27 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_CUIRASSIER';
    Combat = 40 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_CAVALRY';
    Combat = 58 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_ANTI_TANK_GUN';
    RangedCombat = 8 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_CHARIOT_ARCHER';
    RangedCombat = 7 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_MONGOLIAN_KESHIK';
    RangedCombat = 14 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_MOUNTED_BOWMAN';
    RangedCombat = 22 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_CUIRASSIER';
    RangedCombat = 31 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_CAVALRY';
    RangedCombat = 58 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_ANTI_TANK_GUN';
    RangedCombat = 70 WHERE Type = 'UNIT_HELICOPTER_GUNSHIP';
    I debated removing logistics from the promotion line because of Mongolia, but the -30% penalty almost makes logistics a damage-neutral promotion, so it seems like a bad choice anyways (2x1=2 vs 0.7x3=2.1).

    In the current version, Mongol skirmishers get +2 move and ZOC on a 4 move unit. So the comparison is similar to Range vs Logistics. Being able to put damage on a target more consistently vs being able to put more damage on a target. They are situationally incomparable, and I didn't want Mongolia zipping around with 7 movement skirmishers, so I opted for a side-grade
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2021
  17. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Dec 31, 2005
    The trick is that the damage math is not linear. Aka 30% less CS does not mean 30% less damage. Here are the actual formulas if you ever want to use them (this assumes healthy units).

    If the attacker has the higher CS (or RCS): = 30 * ((((((R)+3)/4)^4)+1)/2)
    If the attacker has the lower CS (or RCS in ranged wars): = 30 * ((((((25/21)+3)/4)^4)+1)/2)^-1

    R = the CS of the stronger unit / the CS of the weaker unit. Use RCS instead as appropriate. Note that you always put the higher number on top for R, no matter which one is attacking.

    So if we go back to your example. Lets use the Chariot Archer (8 RCS) vs your new Cbow (12).

    Normal Logistics
    Normally damage: 23 damage.
    With normal logistics (2 shots at -30%, aka 5.6 RCS): its 32 damage.

    To get that equivalent damage normally, you would need an RCS of 14 (aka a 75% RCS buff).

    So even with a -30% penalty, logistics does WAY more damage than other promotions, plus the double xp.

    Normal Logistics + Mongolian Bonus
    So what would happen if you stacked them? Aka you combined the normal double attack from mongolia with a third attack, and all attacks are at -30% RCS?

    Normally damage: ~23 damage.
    Damage (3 shots at -30%): 48

    Now there are ratios where the RCS penalty does start to matter more. Lets take your new swordsman (16 CS +10% for the new promotion, so 17.6 CS).

    Damage (2 shots no penalty): 31
    Damage (3 shots -30%): 27

    So its a mixed bag here, if the skirmisher gets into a favorable scenario it can do incredible damage, but against tough nuts it will do less with the logistics promotion.
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2021
    CrazyG and pineappledan like this.
  18. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Aug 9, 2017
    Alberta, Canada
    I just booted up a game with Mongolia and I'm currently in medieval. I had 3(!) natural wonders spawn close to me, and my nearest neighbour is Venice, so no competition for space there. So this is a pretty easy game to coast with and play around.

    Last time I played a Mongolia game before this was Jan 2019, when the heavy tribute yields were still +250%. I am still finding the heavy tribute is the strongest part of the kit. So many instant yields, I can complete wonders or settlers in 1 turn if I tribute a merchant. I had a religious CS spawn closest to me, so I bullied it for a free enhancer as soon as I founded.

    No surprises on the skirmisher front. I had a lot of trouble sieging, because skirmishers are basically useless for that, but Venice couldn't even put up a fight in the field. This game is going to be a cakewalk. I'm pretty sure Mongolia is still broken OP, but it's not my skirmisher changes that are the problem. I would say my changes are a nerf, since I took out the alliance ignoring.
  19. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Dec 31, 2005
    Oh one more number, since once I start I just can't start:)

    A common question about logistics is, with the -30% penalty, is there ever a normal time in the game where logistics is actually a drawback? Aka I would do less damage with 2 attacks than the 1 at no penalty?

    This does happen when the ratio is less than 1/3. So against a CS 15, the unit (before the -30%) had a CS 5. So it normally has to be a pretty extremely difference, I most commonly see it on siege units in the later game, as there attacks against infantry can get pretty dinky.
    CrazyG likes this.
  20. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Aug 9, 2017
    Alberta, Canada
    removed the changes to Hoplite
    Added Sidearm promotion to Nubian Medjay (oversight on my part; they are a unique unit class so they got missed)
    Siam's Naresuan's Elephant now has +15% CS when stacked with a Great General (gives them a promotion that stays on upgrade). Increased the unit's cost by 10%.
    India's Naga Malla now has free Accuracy I
    With these changes to Impi, Atlatlist, Naresuan's Elephant, and Naga Malla, I believe all unique units have at least 1 promotion that stays on upgrade now. Let me know if I have missed any.
    Lowered the RCS of all composite bows by 1 (CBows are now 10:c5strength:/11:c5rangedstrength:)

    Coming soon:
    I'm planning on making changes to the White Tower, making it an Ironworks replacement.
    If the new America UA is implemented, I will begin work on implementing the unique American National wonders (independence hall, Smithsonian, west point, sun records)
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021

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