play balancing the civs

[davidlallen]

i think New culture system is too powerfull. With BG i can do amazing things, pop endless culture borders and take cities at will just by culture. Seems it is bit over-done. Need to tone it abit down.

Thanks for the feedback. I want to be sure I understand. Ahriman suggested some new expansion rates for cultural borders. The Reverend Mother has access to two "new" spy missions, "convert city" and "destabilize civilization". Which one is causing problems?

For "convert city", we can make the EP cost much higher. This is in gameinfo/civ4espionagemissioninfo.xml, search "Convert City" and then under that search "iCost". The iCost entry is the cost in EP. There are a lot of modifiers but if you feel the mission is too cheap, increase the cost. What value do you think is reasonable? Or is "convert city" just plain too powerful? I was thinking of decreasing the success rate for each population of the city, say -10% per population, so a pop 10 city could never be converted.

 

[Slvynn]

I talking just about taking cities with culture, it became vry easy thing. If you add your espionage that makes it too powerfull, and player can abuse it.
I think culture rings (new ones) should be toned down, because if you emphasize culture now you just take cities from neighbors very easily just by culture, even without spies. Most powerfull cities lose tiles as well, recieving damage of lost tiles in bfc.
With spies it become crazy, like flipping all cities around you, almost unrestrained.
We need to care that AI of BG emphasize Culture and Espionage then, and tune culture spreading rings (lower speed) and EP costs for such operations (highter cost) and decrease success rate as well as you mentioned (pop 10 city never converted).
It is simple insanely effective way to get cities without war for now. No need for big offencive army, *shrug*
Also KH line need to be moved to later techs, +25% strenght on Divine Mandate is too powerfull, lets start from 15%

 

[Ahriman]

This is useful feedback:

I think culture rings (new ones) should be toned down,

I can do this easily enough. Do you have suggestions for values?

The status quo ones vs the old vanilla ones are listed in the Excel file here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8658988&postcount=105

Maybe (looking at normal speed) we should move Refined from 300 to 400, Influential from 1000 to 1500, and Potent from 5000 to 7500, and Dominant from 10,000 to 15,000. Would that be sufficient?
(And proportionally for other game speeds).

That would be these values (see attached).

 

[Slvynn]

i think it should be such values

(the problem is with those rings that convert cities before legendary - and they come too fast)

Refined 400
Influential 2500
Potent 10000
Dominant 25000

Also AI of BG should emphasize culture and espionage to play effective (and lore wise it is also good - i am not sure what it is emphasizing right now)

 

[Ahriman]

i think it should be such values

Maybe... those seem a little high (we want culture to be valuable - remember that cities are spaced much further apart than in vanilla - in vanilla archipelago, culture is really very unimportant), but I'd be ok with trying them.

Also AI of BG should emphasize culture and espionage to play effective (and lore wise it is also good - i am not sure what it is emphasizing right now)

They have very high espionage emphasis (140 for both BG leaders, Ordos are 150 for Roma and 130 for Executrix, "standard" is 100, highest vanilla value is Stalin with 150 and Catherine with 130, all others in vanilla are <=120). I don't think there really is anything that controls cultural emphasis, except wonder construction. But they have lower military emphasis and higher religion emphasis, so by definition they'll be building more culture producers.

 

[Slvynn]

Maybe... those seem a little high (we want culture to be valuable - remember that cities are spaced much further apart than in vanilla - in vanilla archipelago, culture is really very unimportant), but I'd be ok with trying them.



They have very high espionage emphasis (140 for both BG leaders, Ordos are 150 for Roma and 130 for Executrix, "standard" is 100, highest vanilla value is Stalin with 150 and Catherine with 130, all others in vanilla are <=120). I don't think there really is anything that controls cultural emphasis, except wonder construction. But they have lower military emphasis and higher religion emphasis, so by definition they'll be building more culture producers.

Those values are ok because we wont them to break game mechanics - lets try them and see -yes
So much rights is already quite serious stuf, and poping so much with just 15000 seems too hight

As for emphasis - you are wrong there are 2 parameters which emphasize certain buildings and units and techs. I think it is in leader xml values. Values of those parameters are "CULTURE" "GROWTH" and such

EDIT: It called Flavor

<Flavors>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_RELIGION</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>5</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_MILITARY</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>2</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
</Flavors>

Margot have Growth Religion
Gaius have Culture Religion

At least Margot should be changed to Espionage
I also know they are Religions, but those parameters are unseen to player - if we want to perform them better we need to increase culture and espionage emphasis

I'd like to switch them both to Culture / Espionage, since they never worshipped any religion - they created them, and had own religion, which can be represented by their culture. They were converting worthy ones to their side - thats for sure. Not from religious point of view, but more complete - cultural.

 

[Ahriman]

EDIT: It called Flavor

The flavors aren't parameters, in the normal sense. Each leader gets one flavor preference, which slightly affects the order in which they research techs. Each tech has flavor values assigned to it between 1 and 10 in each of the 6 flavor categories.
The only effect that flavor has AFAIK is to change tech emphasis based on these assigned values.

At least Margot should be changed to Espionage

There is no espionage flavor. I think the only flavors are culture, gold, growth, religion, science, military.
The only parameter that controls espionage is iEspionageWeight, which is already very high for the BGs.

since they never worshipped any religion - they created them, and had own religion, which can be represented by their culture

This makes no sense. Religion flavor shifts the AI to be more likely to research religious techs, so it will be more likely to found religions, and more likely to be able to build the cheap temples they get from Spiritual Trait. It is good for BG to have religion flavor emphasis.
It absolutely makes sense for BG to have a religious emphasis; they found the religion and manipulate it to their own end.

 

[Slvynn]

The flavors aren't parameters, in the normal sense. Each leader gets one flavor preference, which slightly affects the order in which they research techs. Each tech has flavor values assigned to it between 1 and 10 in each of the 6 flavor categories.
The only effect that flavor has AFAIK is to change tech emphasis based on these assigned values.


There is no espionage flavor. I think the only flavors are culture, gold, growth, religion, science, military.
The only parameter that controls espionage is iEspionageWeight, which is already very high for the BGs.



This makes no sense. Religion flavor shifts the AI to be more likely to research religious techs, so it will be more likely to found religions, and more likely to be able to build the cheap temples they get from Spiritual Trait. It is good for BG to have religion flavor emphasis.
It absolutely makes sense for BG to have a religious emphasis; they found the religion and manipulate it to their own end.

Ok , i'll mention what i intended in bit different way, hope you'll understand, and i am sure if you'll do then you'll understand its importance

IF we compare vanilla espionage and DW espionage we will find that espionage in DW is much more potent. That brings us to conclusion than not using such potent espionage, not abusing it - misusing certain civ powers.

Now if we'll take Player, who plays BG (BTl), he will use much more espionage than he did in bts. Now its became focus.
If we'll take AI it will not (enough) (it will use it at not maximum value - vanilla value which related to espionage from vanilla) - that means this is power which somewhat abused by player and misused by AI.

1st i dont see sence (there is any!) to keep all Super-Spy civs at less than 150 espionage flavor. Why less? there is no reason, player when plays game dont know its 130 or 120... he will feel just that AI using its spies not enough, compared to powers those hold in their hands.

Same with culture. Then i dont like Flavor of Growth for Margot - it should be Culture, with high value- just for better AI synergy performance. They still have different personality with other values. So this will not harm, but will help to use their certain powers at maximum, which human can abuse.

 

[Ahriman]

Sylvnn, attached are the implications of your proposal (see the last section); make sure that you're happy with the implications for Epic game speed.

 

[Slvynn]

Epic Dominant should be 37500 i think and not 50000

 

[Ahriman]

Slyvnn, it sounds like your proposal is:
1) Set the value of iEspionageWeight to 150 for every Bene Gesserit, Tleilaxu and Ordos leader.
2) Change Margot's flavor preferences to Culture/Religion, from Growth/Religion.

Make sure you keep in mind the downsides of these, they can potentially cripple the AI. Everything has an opportunity cost.

A higher espionage rate makes the AI focus more on buildings and specialists that provide espionage points, which means *less* emphasis on buildings and specialists that provide beakers, gold and hammers.

A higher espionage makes the AI build more spy units, which mean they build fewer military units.

A higher espionage means that they set the culture slider higher, which means less gold, beakers and culture.

We may have more espionage options than vanilla (once we get them working), but that doesn't mean that the AI will be able to use them very effectively, and so pushing so many leaders into espionage can weaken AI performance significantly.

A culture/religion flavor preference is also dangerous, since neither of these have any direct effect on military or economy. The AI will prioritize getting lots of techs like Faith, Religious Mandate, Jihad, Culture of Dune, Academies, Great Houses, Feudalism etc, rather than military or industrial or growth techs, which tend to be more powerful.

* * *

Please also make sure you understand; there is no espionage flavor. The only flavors are culture, gold, growth, religion, science, military.

 

[Ahriman]

Epic Dominant should be 37500 i think and not 50000

Yes. Fixed.

 

[Slvynn]

I think that AI performs ok with 150 espionage. Also that means it will harm more to most threating rival in game - player. I dont think impact on this so hight, with those spies ai will destroy buildings, improvements and steal gold. It will laso get more chances to leverage its spies and finally recieve some Diplomacy +3 promotion or other stuff.
I think that it should be done.

As for culture for margot - same
I think you didnt played BG yet - 1.6.5 full game. I did (quite alot) and i found new amazing thing - you dont need too much of offencive military with BG. You just flip cities after cities and defend, then you grow bigger, more than anyone and nothing threaten you. Thats a very nice and presently too powerfull synergy i see there, but it is decent by its idea, just need some tune down.
Beleive me this is so mighty thing, that it should be abused by BG - Their traits, new system for rings - and culture emphasizing will make all neighbour cities - yes yes yes - just flipping to them without combat. Tested . Approved.
tuning 120 esp to 150 and Growth to Culture wont make any harm, considering that Margot will focus culture and fli cities around growing bigger earlier than era of wars begin. Thats a powerfull weapon and thats a thing which made my Immortal game very easy with BG (considered too powerfull and too early KH and not balanced culture rings with which i flipped alot of cities.

 

[Ahriman]

I think that AI performs ok with 150 espionage.

Keep in mind that the only experience you have with a 150 espionage leader is Roma, and she does well because Financial trait has been so powerful with 2 commerce windtraps. The Bene Gesserit AIs do pretty poorly.

Also that means it will harm more to most threating rival in game - player.

I don't understand what this means. An AI prioritizing espionage doesn't direct that espionage at the human player more than they do at any other civ.

with those spies ai will destroy buildings, improvements and steal gold.

The AI will arguably do much more damage to a human player by emphasizing military units than they will by espionage. The espionage AI just isn't very good, and having a few improvements destroyed during peacetime isn't that damaging; you just rebuild them.

It will laso get more chances to leverage its spies and finally recieve some Diplomacy +3 promotion or other stuff.
I think that it should be done.

I don't understand what you mean here. Bene Gesserit are the only ones with a diplomacy spy mission, and they could do that even without a very high espionage rating. Other factions don't get anything like this.

I think you didnt played BG yet - 1.6.5 full game.

Reverend Mothers currently don't come until Water of life tech, by which time the game is 75% over. I think they will need to come earlier.

you dont need too much of offencive military with BG

The AI does.

You just flip cities after cities and defend, then you grow bigger, more than anyone and nothing threaten you.

I have yet to see any cities flip. You can only really flip cities on your home islands anyway.

I think you are overestimating the value of espionage and culture, particularly in AI hands.

I have no particular problem with changing Margot to Culture.

But I think setting every BG, Tleilaxu and Ordos AI to iEspionageWeight = 150 isn't particularly wise.

 

[God-Emperor]

Please also make sure you understand; there is no espionage flavor. The only flavors are culture, gold, growth, religion, science, military.

Actually, this is not correct.

From the BtS GlobalTypes.xml file:

	<FlavorTypes>
		<FlavorType>FLAVOR_MILITARY</FlavorType>
		<FlavorType>FLAVOR_RELIGION</FlavorType>
		<FlavorType>FLAVOR_PRODUCTION</FlavorType>
		<FlavorType>FLAVOR_GOLD</FlavorType>
		<FlavorType>FLAVOR_SCIENCE</FlavorType>
		<FlavorType>FLAVOR_CULTURE</FlavorType>
		<FlavorType>FLAVOR_GROWTH</FlavorType>
		<FlavorType>FLAVOR_ESPIONAGE</FlavorType>
	</FlavorTypes>

You also missed the production flavor in your list.

Dune Wars already uses FLAVOR_ESPIONAGE too. The following buildings and units have an espionage flavor value:
BUILDING_GREAT_PALACE
BUILDING_CITADEL
BUILDING_TRIBUNAL
BUILDING_SLAVE_PIT
BUILDING_HIGH_TRIBUNAL
BUILDING_PRISON_CAMP
BUILDING_ASSASSIN_BUREAU
BUILDING_MIHNA_CHALLENGE
BUILDING_SABOTEUR_DEFENSE
BUILDING_CHOUHADA_ACADEMY

UNIT_INFILTRATOR
UNIT_GREAT_SPY

I think that is everything that uses it.

 

[Slvynn]

I think that it will be wise to change one of Leaders to Espionage flavor (Margot from Growth to espionage?) (Feinrig ... or may be Culture/Espionage
I think also we should add all UU spies there, because guess what &#8211; Ordos is misusing its flavor

Also about Cultural defence &#8211; I think it should grow more than it now. The thing that we have units which ignore defence bonus from building and huge str ratios, and taking cities atm is muuuuuuuuuuuch easier than in vanilla. I think That Culture defense should be increased from current, lowered ones balancing unit combat types
This also makes espionage more vital , and balances siege/military/espionage choices

 

[Ahriman]

From the BtS GlobalTypes.xml file:

Huh! Interesting, sounds like I was wrong. I knew production was there and we are using that, but I didn't know there was espionage.

The flavor document I was working for designing flavor values didn't have espionage values.

None of the techs currently have espionage flavor values AFAIK (or if they do, they're not on the right techs), so just assigning a "flavor espionage" won't change the AI tech priorities.
Can you check in the tech tree to confirm that there is even an espionage flavor value for the techs?

Also about Cultural defence &#8211; I think it should grow more than it now.

I actually really like the lowered cultural defense values. It makes the defensive buildings actually worth constructing. I would rather boost city defender units than boost the culture values. The culture values actually encourage you to use the right units for assaults.

The ideal solution that I would like is to have the FFH method of city defense though, where physical city defenses *stack* with cultural defenses.

lowered ones balancing unit combat types
This also makes espionage more vital , and balances siege/military/espionage choices

I don't understand this.

 

[Slvynn]

Atm melee are very strong units and dealing with so low culture defence in smaller cities make them even more powerfull
Same espionage city defence removal (revolts) - its to hard to get compared to powerfull melee line

1. i agree on FFH method of defences.
2. Siege lines are somewhat not balanced with melee (ML / Shield Fighter) with new culture values.

I'll check Flavors later - we need to fix them asap if they are set in wrong way.

 

[God-Emperor]

Huh! Interesting, sounds like I was wrong. I knew production was there and we are using that, but I didn't know there was espionage.

The flavor document I was working for designing flavor values didn't have espionage values.

I expect it was added in BtS, along with the general revamp of espionage.

None of the techs currently have espionage flavor values AFAIK (or if they do, they're not on the right techs), so just assigning a "flavor espionage" won't change the AI tech priorities.
Can you check in the tech tree to confirm that there is even an espionage flavor value for the techs?

The only references to it in any XML file are the above 10 buildings and 2 units. Nothing else has FLAVOR_ESPIONAGE values in Dune Wars. Yet.

 

[Slvynn]

That&#8217;s a good find, God-Emperror , but that&#8217;s bad it is not set yet &#8211; we need to fix that asap.
Also need to check other flavors if they being set properly.