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Playable Historical Civ ideas

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - Medieval: Conquests' started by drjest2000, Jul 27, 2013.

  1. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    Daw has given us some historical info and some ideas for Russian leaders and I want to post that here...

     
  2. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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  3. Commander Bello

    Commander Bello Say No 2 Net Validations

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    Looks pretty nice :)
     
  4. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    I have a question about Russian Civs. What should I call the Civilization that holds all the "Russian" Leaders? Would it be safe to called them "Slavic"? I am not sure if that is fitting or would offend anyone? I have added Oleg of the Kievan Rus, but I want to make the current Slavic native leader Samo into a Playable leader as well, so Slavs will have two choices. Is this safe, like I do not want to have Russians yelling at me saying they are not Slavs!!!

    I'm not a Slav!!! :mad:
     
  5. Fullerene

    Fullerene Warlord

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    I would just call it "the Rus". Slavic means more than just Russians. Maybe simply Russians or Eastern Slavic would do too... But I think Rus is best choice.
     
  6. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    Thanks for the input.

    Well the Encyclopedia Britannica puts it:

     
  7. Daw

    Daw Emperor

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    Yes - for the guy. But not for the background.

    The point is that Oleg died in 912 (as per the official version), and Rus was officially baptized in 987, so there are at least 75 years between Oleg and the Orthodox church heads on the background.

    :lol: Well, there are many Slavs (and Russians among them as well) yelling many different things, but the fact is precisely like Encyclopedia Britannica is putting it: every Russian is a Slav, but not every Slav is a Russian. Nothing personal, just History.

    However, if you like the complexity of it, Oleg was a son of Rurik, which officially makes him a Varangian, which effectively puts him as a Norse rather than a Slav :crazyeye:
     
  8. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    The background does look nice. There is an issue with not being historical correct, but it is still nice looking ;)
     
  9. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    Yes, I wondered about the background but that can easily be changed. Maybe we can call this group of Slavs the "Varangian", or did the Varagians end with Oleg? Then if we add Samo as a leader he can command the Slavs.

    This talk of background makes me think we could throw in some Background changes. Like for Religion or for the Era, the background can change.
     
  10. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    Can we select background at runtime based on civics or are they merged with leader heads at startup? If we can pick at runtime, then we can add an interesting new dimension to the game (though it will just be eye candy).
     
  11. Daw

    Daw Emperor

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    Samo of the Western/Southern Slavs and Rurikid (Varangian) leaders of the Eastern Slavs should be distinguished between.

    First, all Slavs are brothers, of course, but still they are as different as brothers may be. So mixing all Slavs into one joint group does not seem like a very good idea.
    Second, Samo lived earlier than Varangians came to lead the Eastern Slavs. Samo's equivalent of the Eastern Slavs would be Gostomysl, but there is not much actually known of him.

    Well, it's both yes and no. Formally, all Rurik's kin are non-Slavic Varangians (as it should become clear from the lengthy and confusing explanation below).

    But Rurikid dynasty lasted as long as roughly 800 years, and was understandably assimilated to be virtually indistinguishable from Slavic. It's hard to say though when exactly they totally lost their Nordic identity.

    Besides, Oleg himself is a quite controversial figure. Some say he was Rurik's elder son. Some say he was not a son but still akin. Some say he was not even akin, but the best friend or just someone from Rurik's team. Some even say he is just a legend (or misinterpretation of the old texts) and never really existed. All we know, he's called the Stig.

    I don't think the idea of calling this group "Varangians" is a good one. I agree with Fullerene: calling them "the Rus" is probably the best choice. Though nobody actually knows what that means exactly, everybody got used to the sound of it. So it's quite safe.

    The lengthy and confusing explanation:
    Spoiler :
    Varangians themselves were hardly an ethnic group, but rather a name for any "Nordlings" coming from (and from beyond) the Varangian Sea (the Baltic sea) and sailing up and down the "Varangians to Greeks" trade route for the Slavic tribes to observe them. These travelers could be anyone of the region: Swedеs, Normann, Wends, Finns - you name them.

    The Primary Chronicle also directly puts it that "Varangians" is a generic name for a variety of ethnic groups.

    As I was thinking of it, I've got a belief that the decentralized Eastern Slavs were sitting in their villages along the river banks and observing Varangian longships passing by them from the North to the South and back again.

    Sometimes the ships would stop for their crew to get food and rest and fun from the villagers. That could be done in a friendly manner or... well, otherwise.

    These "otherwise" ways were the moments for the Slavs to discover that even one such ship crew of up to 100 well equipped tough guys "melted" together as a team for fighting as well as for rowing can be enough to raze a village without too much effort if they like. A caravan of several such ships seemed to be an invincible army.

    This, as the Primary Chronicle suggests, seeded Slavic heads with the idea that the Varangians would be good managers and defenders. This idea grew fast and vast, resulting in a joint delegation of Slavic tribes representatives sent to the Varangians. Some Varangians thought the idea was a great opportunity to secure the trade route and volunteered to take the chance.

    This supposedly (the other version is that none of it ever happened at all) was the dawn of Russian state known as Gardariki, started in Novgorod by non-Slavic Nordlings - the Varangians called the Rus. Historians apparently have no clear idea of who exactly they might be, but:
    A) "Archaeological evidence such as "Frankish swords, a sword chape and a tortoiseshell brooch" in the area suggest that there was, in fact, a Scandinavian population during the tenth century at the latest." (c)
    B) "The "Rurikid Dynasty DNA Project" of FamilyTreeDNA commercial genetic genealogy company reports that Y-DNA testing of the descendants of Rurikids suggests their non-Slavic origin." (c)

    As shortly as a decade after that, the Varangians strove and succeeded in securing the entire "Varangians to Greeks" trade route (see Askold and Dir) by adding Kiev and Polans realm to their controlled lands with Oleg the Prophet eventually moving their capital from Novgorod to Kiev, thus establishing the Kievan Rus as we know it.

    That actually put Byzantium Constantinople to the immediate threat of constant raids by Slavs led by Varangians. Because medieval psychology suggested that trade is only good for something that cannot be taken by force. And with a stronghold in Kiev the Slavs and their Varangian leaders got the force.

    It was only natural of the Byzantium to seek for an opportunity to get friendly with the Rus. And they eventually saw that opportunity in the spiritual pursuit of Vladimir the Red Sun.

    With that, the first chapter of Russian history ends, and the second begins, but that is a different story.
     
  12. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    According to the BBC documentary "vikings" (the one presented by Neil Oliver), "the Rus" mean "the people who row". The question is if this is correct. This documentary provides no source for this translation.

    Somehow I'm not too sure that's correct. The countries the vikings came from call Russia for Russland (spelling varies a little). If the vikings used that name too, then it would have meant "the land with Rus" to them. Logically the vikings would not point to somebody else and say "those people row their boats" as vikings themselves row. Rus would refer to something present in Russia, which isn't present in Scandinavia. If vikings gave the name, then it is likely some description of the terrain.

    If I should guess at a meaning, it would likely refer to the rivers. It's the land where you can travel very far on rivers. I have nothing to back that up other than "it would make sense to name it something like that". I guess that could have been translated as "the people who rows on the rivers" at some point. According to the documentary "The Rus" is mentioned in records in Constantinople. This mean the translation error could have been made by somebody speaking with the Rus themselves. For all we know, they said "we travel on the rivers" then the scribe came up with calling them Rus.

    There are plenty of historical interesting translations due to language barriers. We know when the explorers asked the locals for the place names and then they wrote whatever the locals answered. Some good ones are:
    -Luzon (an island in the Philippines): "we are rowing".
    -Kangaroo. "what does the man say" (now that's a language barrier :lol:)

    Another interesting one is Japan. This is written 日本 (litt. the place where the sun comes from). When reading it in the language used in Shanghai 500 years ago, it was read Japong. This name was given to European explorers and they came back and told they were informed of a far eastern country called Japan. Nobody in Europe knew that the Japanese call their land Nippon.
     
  13. Daw

    Daw Emperor

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    Yes, that's precisely what I meant by saying "nobody actually knows what that means exactly".

    Speaking of rivers and something present in Russia rather than Scandinavia, there is an interesting version based on a river name. The version, however, does not fit well with:
    1) Primary chronicle saying those "Rus" Varangian guys were invited from beyond the sea;
    2) Archeology findings proving substantial Norse presence in early Russian cities;
    3) Rurikid male DNA study results pointing to somewhere among the Swedish-speaking Finns. (source)

    As for the misinterpretations and subsequent funny names, I like this one (thouhg it is an anecdote rather than a true story): the Russian name for Germans is Немцы (Nemtsy), which means "inarticulate"/"mute". The point is that talking Germans produce sounds, which make no sense to Russians, so Russians figured Germans just can't speak properly.

    Well, I really apologize for my ancestors' embarrassing ignorance. Please don't take it seriously, as "Nemetes" were mentioned by Julius Caesar long before any Russians were heard of, so the name cannot be a Russian idea.

    Interestingly however - and this part is not an anecdote - the word "немцы" also was used in medieval Russia to identify any foreigners at all, regardless of their nationality. The reason is the same: they produce sounds we can't understand.
     
  14. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    That is quite interesting. I looked at the map and it is in latin. However looking to the far right, it has the name Trubieß fl. What really caught my eye is ß. It's a German character (double s). To my knowledge latin never used this character. I'm not really sure what to make of that. Fl is short for river in both Latin and German.

    To the top right, there is a town called Ruscinow. They are not next to each other, which makes me wonder. They are not next to each other meaning they are presumably not named after each other. Instead it would be more likely that there is a Rus, which is used to name all other usage of Rus. Kind of like how square isn't named after Madison Square Garden. Instead all places including the name square is named based on a description of the place. Imagine not knowing what square mean. That could trigger some interesting debate regarding which place was the first to be named square and how the others were named after it. Considering the issue with Rus is that we don't know what it mean, it could very well be something like that.

    WAS?? Diese Leute muss blöd sein. :crazyeye: Sie verstehen nicht eine Richtiges Sprache und sie sagen nur "da da da" :p:lol:

    That makes me wonder if the original meaning was actually something else and corrupted into meaning "un-understandable" at some point. It might have been a people and a language at first, which has died out. Imagine an iron age town. Traders from another place shows up once in a while speaking something nobody understands and trade is done by pointing at what you want to give and pointing at what you want. People know those foreign traders speak nemtsy. As generations pass, nobody hears real nemtsy, but they all remember that name as "something nobody understands".
     
  15. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    At some point I am going to add in a bunch of eye candy. I imagine we can add backgrounds when and where ever we want.


    Sounds like bar bar bar to me. I think I'll call you barbarian;)
     
  16. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    :lmao:
    The "da da da" part is fake quoting Russian meaning the one you should call barbarian should be Daw, not me :lol:
     
  17. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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  18. Daw

    Daw Emperor

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    Oh yes, that would be pretty much accurate :lol:

    Indeed. However, I think I found a better one - the rightmost is a pagan Stribog idol, and the rest two don't really matter as they will probably be covered with the Leaderhead.
    Spoiler :


    I managed to identify that river. It is Трубеж. I can imagine the map-maker had really hard time trying to transliterate that, as "ж" character represents sound similar to the one "s" gives in "measure" or "pleasure". I am not sure Latin has that sound at all.

    Really, the map-maker must have thought something like "Sie sagen nur 'da da da'" :lol:

    EDIT:

    But really, like I said before, I am quite happy with having Russians as non-playable "Minor Civ". The thing is that the western European medieval social system is almost totally not applicable to Rus. Russians never had anything like Chivalry and Knights as a special social group for instance. That means no heavy cavalry at all. And no Pages. I am trying to say that making it accurately would call for a considerable effort of pretty much re-writing Units/Professions/Promotions structure for just one Civ, and making it inaccurately would mean something looking like a mock, though unwished.
     
  19. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    Wow, that is an awesome screen shot. I will use it.

    The thing is we have Civics now, so you can set up your kingship to not even use Knights, and instead pick Civics that are more Rus like. On that note, take a look over the Civics currently in the mode (they are called Decrees in M:C) and see if the current Decrees can setup a authentic political automosphere for the Rus.
     
  20. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    Imagine this like StarCraft. You have a number of civilizations to play and while they are all balanced, they do not provide the same set of buildings, units and stuff like that meaning you will get a totally different playing experience depending on which one you pick. We have the ability to make each civilization truly unique.

    Sure there is a workload of setting up a new kind of civilization, but it may not be as big as you think.
     

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