Please stop with the "what if" scenarios

[Dachs]

What if people actually read Plotinus' posts?

 

[BananaLee]

What if people actually read Plotinus' posts?

I do. But I'm still up for...

I'm thinking of a meta-althist where the Althists have killed all the Puritans and taken over the Historum, led by an avatar of Althistian Zheng He. They then proceed to found the religion of Althistianity with the holy city of Byzanistan. All they need now is a Great Althist to construct the Temple of True Baloney.

 

[Mathalamus]

I'm thinking of a meta-althist where the Althists have killed all the Puritans and taken over the Historum, led by an avatar of Althistian Zheng He. They then proceed to found the religion of Althistianity with the holy city of Byzanistan. All they need now is a Great Althist to construct the Temple of True Baloney.

Who's up for that?

that was actually quite humorous to me.

 

[Lord Baal]

wrong. the Turks didn't die en masse, they merged with the mongols ( which DID invade Anatolia) in the current version of my time line. Federal states is inevitable. for the most part. the new world was discovered in 1408, not 1492, because the Byzantine Empire wanted to Expand. im still debating whether the Byzantine Empire could be a superpower without colonies.

if you didn't like my work just say so, dont beat around the bush.

on topic: i say keep all those what if scenarios. they are good ideas, but usually poorly thought out. the people can offer suggestions to change, remove or add things. i added the Mongol invasions of Byzantium because dachs said that victory after victory is not realistic.

Wanting to expand leads to conquest of nearby areas, not magically discovering a new continent and colonising it. Byzantium in your timeline would need a reason to attempt to reach China or India via the Atlantic Ocean. In the real world this reason was provided to Spain and Portugal by the Ottoman and Venetian domination of trade with the East. Byzantium, having taken the place of the Ottoman Empire in your timeline, would not have a reason to travel to the West like that, as they would already dominate trade between Europe and the Orient.

The USSR and US were both superpowers without colonies, at least not of the type you're thinking.

 

[Mathalamus]

the Byzantines had insufficient lands in the mainland to be a superpower. colonies make sense.

there were rumors of a new world from many civilizations. the Emperor decided enough is enough and they intended to make sure the Rumor is true or false once and for all. they stopped off at Visigoth Lisbon ( remember Islam never made it into Spain) for provisions and kept heading west. eventually they discovered the new world.

 

[Lord Baal]

the Byzantines had insufficient lands in the mainland to be a superpower. colonies make sense.

there were rumors of a new world from many civilizations. the Emperor decided enough is enough and they intended to make sure the Rumor is true or false once and for all. they stopped off at Visigoth Lisbon ( remember Islam never made it into Spain) for provisions and kept heading west. eventually they discovered the new world.

Colonies do not make sense unless they are economical. The primary reason Britain abandoned the US, instead of making a concerted effort to reconquer it, was simply because the pacification would have cost too much. That's also pretty much the same reason they gave up their colonies after WWII; they could no longer afford them, much as they wanted too.

If Byzantium desired new lands due to overpopulation it would simply take them from its neighbours, or at least try. If it needed them for strategic or economic reasons it would take them too. For example, a desire for some sort of lucrative trade with Britain requires that Visigothic Spain's control of the Strait of Gibratar be broken, so Byzantium builds a large enough fleet to cover a conquest of The Rock of Gibraltar, giving them a strategic foothold on the Strait.

Your scenario makes no sense, as any Emperor stupid enough to waste that much money, men and resources on a nonsensical exploration would be summarily overthrown. There were rumours of lands to the West, yes, but the Byzantines knew damn well that the distance between Europe and China would result in their sailors dying of starvation and exposure before they could make the trip across the open oceans if there was not such a land, and people willing to risk death on such an apparently pointless venture are pretty few and far between. Add a tonne of cash to the deal, and people will sign up regardless of the risk. But the amount necessary would be prohibitively expensive, and any Emperor spending it would be a fool, and probably incapable of keeping himself alive in the face of court intrigues, let alone running a large empire.

Even if some Emperor came along idiosyncratic enough to do this, and cunning enough to retain power, the mere discovery of the New World woldn't result in much at all, as the New World had absolutely nothing that could be of interest to the Byzantines. Spain had decidedly little interest in the New World until Cortez decided to take a private army to Mexico following legends of gold. I doubt the Byzantines would have even this interest, as they were already the dominant trading empire in the Mediterranean/ Near East region. They'd actually be encouraging people to destroy their own trade monopoly, which no state could do without being incredibly stupid.

 

[.Shane.]

I don't see how this is even close to true. Such a thread (whilst clearly not being one of the best 'what ifs'), would have to deal with historical precedent to determine what the possible course of events may have been supposing the premise of Hitler winning the war. It involves some level of analysis of history to make a judgement about what may have happened had one part (albeit a ridiculously large part in this case) of history had occurred differently. Star Wars, on the other hand, does not have any roots in history, and is entirely fiction. I'm sure you can see the difference.

They are the same because neither can happen. EVER.

You can blather on about "WHAT IF" all you want, but the discussion is not historical, it is so much mental wanking and showing off.

Go to your local college. Look up the course offerings. Now, tell me how many classes they offer in "Nazi Europe: A study of fascist dominated Europe had Hitler, in fact, won WWII" or "Race relations and the CSA: How the Confederate States internally ended slavery in the 1920s following the assassination of Woodrow Wilson".

Its Hokum.

Now, place it in a sci-fi or fiction forum and then its in the appropriate place. Have fun.

 

[Mathalamus]

Colonies do not make sense unless they are economical. The primary reason Britain abandoned the US, instead of making a concerted effort to reconquer it, was simply because the pacification would have cost too much. That's also pretty much the same reason they gave up their colonies after WWII; they could no longer afford them, much as they wanted too.

If Byzantium desired new lands due to overpopulation it would simply take them from its neighbours, or at least try. If it needed them for strategic or economic reasons it would take them too. For example, a desire for some sort of lucrative trade with Britain requires that Visigothic Spain's control of the Strait of Gibratar be broken, so Byzantium builds a large enough fleet to cover a conquest of The Rock of Gibraltar, giving them a strategic foothold on the Strait.

Your scenario makes no sense, as any Emperor stupid enough to waste that much money, men and resources on a nonsensical exploration would be summarily overthrown. There were rumours of lands to the West, yes, but the Byzantines knew damn well that the distance between Europe and China would result in their sailors dying of starvation and exposure before they could make the trip across the open oceans if there was not such a land, and people willing to risk death on such an apparently pointless venture are pretty few and far between. Add a tonne of cash to the deal, and people will sign up regardless of the risk. But the amount necessary would be prohibitively expensive, and any Emperor spending it would be a fool, and probably incapable of keeping himself alive in the face of court intrigues, let alone running a large empire.

Even if some Emperor came along idiosyncratic enough to do this, and cunning enough to retain power, the mere discovery of the New World woldn't result in much at all, as the New World had absolutely nothing that could be of interest to the Byzantines. Spain had decidedly little interest in the New World until Cortez decided to take a private army to Mexico following legends of gold. I doubt the Byzantines would have even this interest, as they were already the dominant trading empire in the Mediterranean/ Near East region. They'd actually be encouraging people to destroy their own trade monopoly, which no state could do without being incredibly stupid.

ok that makes colonies sort of unnecessary for being a superpower. Byzantium dominates the Mediterranean anyway.

the overpopulation problem back then was severe but they held off from invading neighboring lands because they knew that the ethnic groups caught in the invasion wont roll over and die. Visigoth Spain was "persuaded" (bullied) to keep the Strait open.

so how will the new world be discovered? the military conquest of china by sea wouldn't make sense, and with the spice trade open, no one is motivated to discover it. putting of discovery until the first space object that can either take pictures of earth or scan is stupid IMO

 

[Camikaze]

They are the same because neither can happen. EVER.

You can blather on about "WHAT IF" all you want, but the discussion is not historical, it is so much mental wanking and showing off.

Go to your local college. Look up the course offerings. Now, tell me how many classes they offer in "Nazi Europe: A study of fascist dominated Europe had Hitler, in fact, won WWII" or "Race relations and the CSA: How the Confederate States internally ended slavery in the 1920s following the assassination of Woodrow Wilson".

Its Hokum.

Now, place it in a sci-fi or fiction forum and then its in the appropriate place. Have fun.

Well it's not a forum revolving around courses offered at colleges, either. Actually, there's an argument for only having threads about those things which you couldn't learn or discuss elsewhere (such as in college courses). Why talk about particular academic pursuits when you could just go to your local college and enrol in a course? Seriously, this forum is not just about completely straight down the line conventional academic studies. It is about the topic of World History in general, and 'what ifs' have their basis in historical events, even though the premise they use diverges from it. No, even if those threads in question are not precisely factual, they still involve history to a very large extent. Now, whether or not you actually like this type of historical discussion isn't a determinant of whether or not it should have a place in the world history forum, but a determinant of whether or not you should view and post in the threads in question. 'What ifs' (as Plotinus has pointed out) heavily involve history, so even if you disapprove of them, they certainly have a place in the history forum, more than any other.

 

[Lord Baal]

ok now I kind of see where anti-counterfactualites are coming from having to deal with poorly-thought out things at a "general trends and motivations" level instead of exploring specific historical motivations, plans, and trends but still it's not grounds enough to be all political about the issue imo

That's my main problem with them, yes. Dachs writes fantastic althists, because he focuses on points of departure that actually matter, and develops these althists from the PoD using an accurate knowledge of how states have acted historically. Mathalamus wasn't doing that, but I can forgive him since he learns from his errors and tries to do better later. Unfortunately, quite a few other people on the boards don't do that, as proven by the ainanity of a recent thread which essentially asked; "what if Hitler and Stalin had joined forced and made love and gotten married and such?"

ok that makes colonies sort of unnecessary for being a superpower. Byzantium dominates the Mediterranean anyway.

Exactly. In your timeline it would be the equivalent of the Ottoman Empire or Venice, the dominant trading power in the Mediterranean.

the overpopulation problem back then was severe but they held off from invading neighboring lands because they knew that the ethnic groups caught in the invasion wont roll over and die. Visigoth Spain was "persuaded" (bullied) to keep the Strait open.

That's better, though you'd have to take into account that overpopulation would result in a lot of tensions internally, such as famine, disease and unrest. Allowing people to emigrate solves that problem nicely though, as would things like expulsion of Jews and so forth, which were pretty popular in the Middle Ages.

so how will the new world be discovered? the military conquest of china by sea wouldn't make sense, and with the spice trade open, no one is motivated to discover it. putting of discovery until the first space object that can either take pictures of earth or scan is stupid IMO

There's no reason a nation like Britain or Spain wouldn't stumble across the New World. After all, they have no reason to stand by and allow Byzantium to dominate trade with the East. Why let Byzantium have all the profit when you can make some yourself?

 

[Mathalamus]

That's better, though you'd have to take into account that overpopulation would result in a lot of tensions internally, such as famine, disease and unrest. Allowing people to emigrate solves that problem nicely though, as would things like expulsion of Jews and so forth, which were pretty popular in the Middle Ages.

the Byzantine Republic really tried to keep the large cities nice, clean, well educated and happy. in fact most of their expenses were historically concentrated to the Social Section. the population pressure was so great that they had to research things faster to sustain the population. it made them slightly more advanced than the rest of the world.

There's no reason a nation like Britain or Spain wouldn't stumble across the New World. After all, they have no reason to stand by and allow Byzantium to dominate trade with the East. Why let Byzantium have all the profit when you can make some yourself?

well... that would make sense, since they did indeed have some colonies in the new world. you'd think that if Byzantium found things first it would grab literally everything it can find.

ill change the time line so the new world is accidentally discovered ( somewhere near south America) by the Visigoths. ( Portugal doesn't exist) then Byzantium a while later found North America. would that make more sense?

 

[nokmirt]

3. You can ususally disguise your "what if" proposal within more reasonable questions. Asking "what would have happened if the Confederacy won at Gettysburg?" is absurd, for the two reasons above. But, you can raise sensible points that (hopefully) would satisfy your urge for alternate histories. Instead, ask, "what was Lee's plan had he won at Gettysburg?," or "did the Army of Northern Virginia have enough supplies to go further North?," or anything similar. These can be answered.

On number 3, there is nothing absurd about it. How can you play Civilization and not think of alternate history. It is about imagination, and if you do not have one, then why are you posting at CFC? I am not trying to be rude, but to me it makes no sense.

By the way the most interesting topics that I have replied too, have been about some kind of alternate scenario. This thread is known for those, it gives the thread some spice, and excites the imagination. What is wrong with that.

I have a book written by Newt Gingrich, which deals with the South winning the Battle of Gettysburg, and keep in mind it could have happened. Especially if Stonewall Jackson had survived, or if General Ewell had eaten some spicy food that morning, which made him run for the high ground. They could have taken that ground, instead they took no intiative, a very important factor needed during a battle. And what ended up being the decisive factor at Gettysburg? The high ground, who used it and controlled it, had a substantial advantage.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Well, my innocent claim that Ethiopian swords look a lot like katanas started an argument about sword types which persisted for so many years that I wished I'd never said it in the first place...
...
Calm! I said before that counterfactuals are part of the study of history. The point I was trying to make is that there are (reasonable) counterfactuals and then there are (absurd) counterfactuals. The former contribute to our understanding of history and the latter don't.

Is "What if African civs had domesticated zebra and raised a cavalry" a reasonable counterfactual?

 

[Tabster]

Is "What if African civs had domesticated zebra and raised a cavalry" a reasonable counterfactual?

I think people have tried to domesticate zebra and failed.

 

[Dachs]

Zebras are friggin' vicious. Diamond claims that they're near-impossible (if not totally impossible) to domesticate.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Zebras can be tamed, but not domesticated. People use them for plenty of things, like beasts of burden or raised for food; they can even be ridden, but as they startle very easily, they can never be trained for battle.

 

[Phrossack]

They're also even more skittish than horses, who are terrified of life itself. Besides, southern African peoples, or at least the Zulu, didn't need cavalry too much due to their very light equipment and torturous training. Members of an impi were required to march up to 50 miles a day barefoot across hot, rocky terrain as well as thornbushes.

 

[Dachs]

What the southern African peoples needed were large crops that grew in that climate. The spread of Bantu culture relied on crops that grew best in tropical and subtropical regions. Didn't fly in southern Africa. So they had to rely on pastoralism instead, which didn't get the job done quite so well.

 

[Takhisis]

What if this thread had never been posted?

 

[Blue Monkey]

What if Plotinus had never put a link in his signature?