Please stop with the "what if" scenarios

[Lord Baal]

Zebras can't be domesticated, for reasons already mentioned in this thread. Apparently, their near-relatives the qagga(sp?) could be domesticated, but were already small in number upon the arrival of Europeans - possibly why the locals never even attempted to tame, let alone domesticate them - and were subsequently hunted into extinction for their furs.

 

[BuckyRea]

Zebras can be tamed, but not domesticated. People use them for plenty of things, like beasts of burden or raised for food; they can even be ridden, but as they startle very easily, they can never be trained for battle.

I think people who quibble on this what-if don't understand the concept of domestication. Taming & training is something that can be done with an individual animal over a matter of months or years. Domestication is a process that involves the adaptation of a population of animals (or plants) from a species, perhaps even resulting in a new species, and occurs over many generations.

Horses are pleasant creatures to deal with and are inclined toward being trained because they already have been domesticated. Zebras certainly can be domesticated. If we start the process now we'll probably be successful in about 500 years.

 

[Dachs]

I think people who quibble on this what-if don't understand the concept of domestication. Taming & training is something that can be done with an individual animal over a matter of months or years. Domestication is a process that involves the adaptation of a population of animals (or plants) from a species, perhaps even resulting in a new species, and occurs over many generations.

Horses are pleasant creatures to deal with and are inclined toward being trained because they already have been domesticated. Zebras certainly can be domesticated. If we start the process now we'll probably be successful in about 500 years.

What'll change over 500 years? We can't get zebras to breed in captivity (the definition of domestication), so every single time you want to tame a zebra you start at square one again (outside of the fact that even relatively tame zebras get nasty in their old age). We've been trying to domesticate elephants for literally millennia and gotten nowhere, because they take too damn long to grow up. It's not a question of how much time will it take cause we'll do it eventually, it's a question of does this animal meet the requisite conditions for domestication at all.

 

[Lord Baal]

I think people who quibble on this what-if don't understand the concept of domestication. Taming & training is something that can be done with an individual animal over a matter of months or years. Domestication is a process that involves the adaptation of a population of animals (or plants) from a species, perhaps even resulting in a new species, and occurs over many generations.

Horses are pleasant creatures to deal with and are inclined toward being trained because they already have been domesticated. Zebras certainly can be domesticated. If we start the process now we'll probably be successful in about 500 years.

False. To be domesticated, an animal has to fall into certain specific criteria. It must be able to be tamed and it must be able to breed in captivity. Zebras can be tamed, but they do not breed in captivity; hence, they cannot be domesticated. There are even animals in zoos that won't breed, like pandas, even though they're treated almost as if they're in the wild. Zebras aren't quite that bad, but they are still undomesticable because they won't breed in captivity.

If you want further proof, look at elephants. Human beings have been attempting to domesticate elephants for literally millenia. You can take an elephant at a young age and train it to do all sorts of useful things, like carry troops and dignitaries, charge enemy soldiers, pull down trees and carry logs, etc., but there's one thing you can't teach elephants to do; breed in captivity. This is why every time you train an elephant, you simply have to find a new one to train when it dies, as it won't produce any offspring for you. Even on the few chance occasions this happens, you're likely to not have the offspring produce offspring of its own. Elephants are simply genetically unsuitable for domestication. As are zebras, monkeys, snakes, and various other animals, all of which have been tamed and turned into housepets and circus acts.

EDIT: God damn you Dachs! Took too long typing that.

 

[Takhisis]

What if Plotinus had never put a link in his signature?

Then neither of us would be poasting here. What would the consequences of that have been?

 

[Mathalamus]

What'll change over 500 years? We can't get zebras to breed in captivity (the definition of domestication), so every single time you want to tame a zebra you start at square one again (outside of the fact that even relatively tame zebras get nasty in their old age). We've been trying to domesticate elephants for literally millennia and gotten nowhere, because they take too damn long to grow up. It's not a question of how much time will it take cause we'll do it eventually, it's a question of does this animal meet the requisite conditions for domestication at all.

Elephants cant be domesticated?

then whats up with all those war elephants I've been hearing in classical history?

 

[Takhisis]

Elephants cant be domesticated?

then whats up with all those war elephants I've been hearing in classical history?

They were captured in the wild and tamed, but they weren't bred in captivity liek horses and camels.

 

[ParkCungHee]

One way I will stick up for Alternative History to be usefull is when the goal is to attempt to shed light on actual historical events. Sometimes by posing hypotheticals, even unreasonable ones, it helps us to put things into context.
I'll give two examples.
I was discussing with a professor of mine how much Wolfe Tone was a Nationalist, and how much he was simply a republican. And I posed that we imagine for a moment, a total republican victory, in whatvever form, in Britain, that saw just as dramatic change in all of Britain as was seen in France, and Tone proposed to Ireland. Abolition of Nobility, Freedom of Religion, etc. etc.
Under such circumstances, would Wolfe Tone, and would his popular republican base, have wanted to sever the link with Britain? We paused for a moment, and decided it was extremely unlikely. So even though it is an impossible scenario, it tells as a little about Wolfe Tone.


Another deals with that great motherload of historiographic debates, Nazi Germany. We were discussing how central Hitler was personally to the NSDAP's success. And after a bit of muddling about and a bunch of 'I dunno lols' from all sides, I posed the question: Can you really Picture anyone else as Chancellor? Goering was only a vague possibility, and seems like he couldn't get into power on his own. Goebells was too unlikable. Himmler was right out, not even possible. Rohm could never even be presented in party politics. The Strassers are too bookish. That leaves...who exactly? Such a dismall showing by the rest seems to point to Hitler himself being very important for NSDAP success.

 

[Naskra]

Too much Diamondism here on the domestication issue. It certainly looks like any species can be domesticated if someone takes the trouble. In recent times we've seen the domestication of all sorts of things: penicillin mold, salmon, ostriches, and truffles to name just a few. The silver fox went from savage little beast to biddable pet in only a dozen years. The elephant is thus far on the same trajectory as the North American bison. From proud symbol of the wild, to endangered species living in managed herds on preserves, to unremarkable farm animal.
Genetic suitability is irrelevant - domestication is the process of changing that state.
For all the years men have been breeding dogs, we still don't know the limits of their malleability.

And btw, we can't say for certain that Hannibal's elephants were not domesticated. Nor even what species they were.

 

[Takhisis]

Too much Diamondism here on the domestication issue. It certainly looks like any species can be domesticated if someone takes the trouble. In recent times we've seen the domestication of all sorts of things: penicillin mold, salmon, ostriches, and truffles to name just a few. The silver fox went from savage little beast to biddable pet in only a dozen years. The elephant is thus far on the same trajectory as the North American bison. From proud symbol of the wild, to endangered species living in managed herds on preserves, to unremarkable farm animal.
Genetic suitability is irrelevant - domestication is the process of changing that state.
For all the years men have been breeding dogs, we still don't know the limits of their malleability.

And btw, we can't say for certain that Hannibal's elephants were not domesticated. Nor even what species they were.

The penicillin mold is domestic? truffles? Ok, we've 'domesticated' wheat, then.
When you domesticate an animal you ahve to make it obey you, like a horse or a dog.

 

[Naskra]

When you domesticate an animal you ahve to make it obey you

Tell that to my cat.

 

[Takhisis]

'Obey' does not necessarily mean enslave.

 

[Tabster]

Ok, we've 'domesticated' wheat

Wheat has a serious problem with it's seeds (the grain) which are too heavy to be wind dispersed like other grasses, without mankinds continous help it's future would been very bleak indeed. It's gone from an obscure grass from the middle east to a major global crop due to this problem with its giant hybrid seeds which are so nutritious and important to mankind.

Domestic means to do with the home or a settled exsistence, so I would consider wheat to be very domesticated indeed.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Actually, the measure of "domestication" is whether they're willing to do it in the presence of people.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Ok, we've 'domesticated' wheat, then.

Yes we have. We've domesticated Corn as well.

 

[Dachs]

Corn and wheat aren't known for their vile temperament

 

[Phrossack]

The domestication of avocadoes, on the other hand, took centuries of toil and thousands of lives.

And can I sig that post?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Africanized wheat is a real menace to society. Very aggressive, breeds like mad. And it destroys valuable watermelon and purple drink resources.

 

[Dachs]

The domestication of avocadoes, on the other hand, took centuries of toil and thousands of lives.

And can I sig that post?

Which, mine? Go for it.

 

[Agent327]

Too much Diamondism here on the domestication issue. It certainly looks like any species can be domesticated if someone takes the trouble. In recent times we've seen the domestication of all sorts of things: penicillin mold, salmon, ostriches, and truffles to name just a few. The silver fox went from savage little beast to biddable pet in only a dozen years. The elephant is thus far on the same trajectory as the North American bison. From proud symbol of the wild, to endangered species living in managed herds on preserves, to unremarkable farm animal.
Genetic suitability is irrelevant - domestication is the process of changing that state.
For all the years men have been breeding dogs, we still don't know the limits of their malleability.

And btw, we can't say for certain that Hannibal's elephants were not domesticated. Nor even what species they were.

I'd say it's pretty sure they were the North African subspecies.

The penicillin mold is domestic? truffles? Ok, we've 'domesticated' wheat, then.
When you domesticate an animal you ahve to make it obey you, like a horse or a dog.

Ummm, no, it's just the latinicized version of 'to tame'. (With indeed the root of domus: house, place, country, city, family, etc.)

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the OP anymore, though...