Pledge of Allegiance ruled unconstitutional...

[ChrTh]

@Starlifter

Now this is the point where I start to disagree with the pro-God people.

In the end, it doesn't matter what the Founding Fathers wanted. The whole reason the Constitution had provisions for amendment was because the Founding Fathers were intelligent people and they understood that there were possibilities in the future they could not foresee.

In the original Constitution, you had to be a White Male Landowner to vote. No one (ok, maybe an extremely limited group of people) would argue that that is what we should have because the Founding Fathers put that down in the original Constitution.

Yes, they used 'God' a lot. There's a simple reason for that: they were all Christians. Heck, 99.99999% of America was Christian (of course, not if you count the slaves) at the time. Duh, of course they used it. It never would've occured to them not to use it (except maybe Mr. Franklin).

So this is far from a decisive argument as far as I'm concerned (similar counter-argument applies to the 2nd Amendment, but I will NOT go there).

 

[ApocalypseKurtz]

Originally posted by rmsharpe
Those extremists are on every side, including atheists.

By the way, your signature... a democracy is the majority rule, right? Well, most Americans believe in A God, so, I fail to see the problem.

As I said before, one of the jobs of the judiciary is to safeguard the minority from the majority when they become disenlightened and tend towards "mob rule. The judiciary has to decide Constitutional issues whether their decision is popular or not. A similar decision was when the Supreme Court ruled flag burning was protected free speech, despite many people wanting it outlawed. The first Amendment says that Congress shall make no law establishing a religion or favoring one over another. The Americans who do not believe in God, even though they may be in the minority, should be safeguarded from the overzealous majority.

On a sidenote, all you "Under God" supporters should have nothing to worry about. The US Senate passed a resolution 99-0 (!) supporting the Pledge with the words "Under God." I am quite dissapointed in some of the liberal senators for voting this way; I figured at least 20 or so would agree with the Circuit Court ruling. In addition to that, the US Supreme Court will have final say on the matter and will in all likelihood vote (5-4 by my count) to reverse this decision.

 

[Franklyn]

This ruling is really not so shocking when you see the hard line that the US Supreme Court -- even though it's stocked with conservatives of the worst stripe -- has taken toward school prayer. Namely, it's not allowed when schools (or teachers or principals) initiate the exercise.

Interestingly, the Appeals Court opinion cites a 1989 dissent written by right-wing Justice Anthony (I Helped Elect Dubya) Kennedy in a case that forbid the city of Pittsburgh from displaying a nativity scene outside the city administration building. Here's what Kennedy wrote:

y statute, the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag describes the United States as ‘one nation under God.’ To be sure, no one is obligated to recite this phrase, . . . but it borders on sophistry to suggest that the reasonable atheist would not feel less than a full
member of the political community every time his fellow Americans recited, as part of their expression of patriotism and love for country, a phrase he believed to be false.

Hmmmm....

 

[starlifter]

by the Founding Fathers of America:

Done in convention by the unanimous consent of the states present the seventeenth day of
September in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven

The Constitution was concluded with the signatures of the delegates, regardless of faith, in the full acknowledgement the the Lord was all of theirs, even the atheists who chose not to believe. It was "our Lord".... not "the Lord" or "some God" or "a Warm Feeling" or " " (blank). This two word phrase is specifically and conspiciously inserted into the very document that you would not exect... the nuts and bolts framework of how our nation is supposed to operate.

Unlike the declaration of Independence, the Constitution is like a blueprint, not a statement of the basis of the America's right to exist in freedom. That is all the more remarkable that all the representatives of the states affixed their names to and acknowleded "our Lord" with those two important words. Like the 2 words in the Pledge of Allegiance.

This document was signed 12 years after the Delcaration of Independence.




Bill of Rights

by the Congress of the United States of America:

The following is a transcription of the first 10 amendments to the United States Constitution.
Called the "Bill of Rights", these amendments were ratified on December 15, 1791.

Amendment I.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Amendment III

No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Those that wish to debate the the Bill of Rights and Constitution should be prepared to do a great deal of research and follow the leagal reasoning of the US Supreme Court, which is the arbitor of the meaning of these documents. Sometimes, the truth will surprise you. Most of the major issues are already resolved, as far as what the "english" really means... so there is not much room for honest intellectual parsing .

People devote entire lifetimes to the study and interpretation of these documents . Ergo, I do not interpret them for you, but reprint them for your perusal, no matter what your individual politics or religion.

Attached is the complete text of the Constitution of the United States of America, and the Bill of Rights.

God Bless America!

 

[ChrTh]

Don't use "Year of our Lord" as an argument, please--you're undermining your case. That phrase was not invented by the Founding Fathers, and I can guarantee you when they wrote that they didn't consider the terminology. You're over-analyzing.

 

[starlifter]

Here is the complete Declaration of Independence of the United States of America. Our overseas friends might enjoy it too.... and the Brits will probably find some "humor" in it from a modern perspective .

PS, I've formatted it to plain text for maximum compatibility and cut/paste for all.


Long may she wave, from the year of our Lord two thousand and two and for ever more!

 

[ChrTh]

The Brits are more likely to find 'humour' in it

Sorry...

 

[Dralix]

by the Founding Fathers of the United States of America:

We hold these truths to be self-evident: - that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

You have now proved to me that the founding fathers believed that all men were endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights. This is not a statement of fact. "We hold these truths to be self-evident." You may hold them to be self-evident as well, but that certainly does not make them fact. It makes them the beliefs of the founding fathers.

by Starlifter:

The "Creator" is God, for those that are unfamiliar with English. Complete with the Capitalization. This is Paragraph Two, first sentence, BTW.

Creator could be your Judeo-Christian god. Creator could also be the Hindu god Brahma. Or creator could be my parents. Or the "primordial soup." For all we know, the word "Creator" was chosen because it could mean anything, not just the Judeo-Christian god.


EDIT: Correct a little typo that drastically altered the meaning of what I was trying to say

 

[starlifter]

Now that I have made the basic documents that established and now govern America easily available for anyone from any viewpoint to reference, we are in a position to at least begin some discussions from the actual source facts, instead of what our own opinions might mislead us with.

First:

by ChrTh:

2) The Separation of Church and State is a derivation of the 1st Amendment, not the Amendment itself. All the Amendment says is the government can't A) Establish a National Religion (say, every American has to be Catholic), or B) Forbid you from practicing your religion. Adding 'under God' to the Pledge of Allegiance (or 'In God We Trust' to currency) does not do either. It would not surprise if at some point in the future, the Separation of Church and State itself is replaced with a different interpretation.

This is an excellent apprasial, in short and accurate terms, of the first Amendment. You have more than a basic understanding of the US Constitution, by your comments on "derivation". This is quite true. The US Supreme Court interprets, but not legislates, this document. That is the primary function of the US Supreme Court.



by VodooAce:

But, ChrTh, don't try to defendy your hypocrisy with semantics. An ammendment is an ammendment. Does it say anything about 'seperation of church and state' in the 1st???? Yes it does, thank you. I mean what kind of bullsh!t are you trying to pass over on me, here? That you can pick and choose from within an ammendment which parts you want to follow???

Sorry, VodooAce, you opinion has led you astray on this issue.

Here is the 1st Amendment, unabridged:

Amendment I.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Again, I refer you to the actual verbage, and will allow you to compare it to your statement made both in error and in haste .

However, your coments do refer to SC interpretions and case law regarding what this amendment actaully grants to Americans. In that context, I think, is what you really meant.

by SL: "The "Under God" is not faith based. It is part of our very makup. It does not in any way abridge one's constitutional rights, and the oblique premise that the pledge is a prayer (thus clumsily attempting to bring the frivilous lawsuit into the possible domain of certain case law and Supreme Court rulings). "

-----

Starlifter, you're wrong. It's not part of MY makeup and I'M an AMERICAN.

It IS part of the Christians within, but not part of the makeup of the USA.

The context of the word "our" refers to the nation of America. As I have repeatedly stated, individuals are free to choose and practice their own religion.

The nation (our Nation, since you count yourself as part of it) is one nation, under God. From day one until this very moment.

Remember, in the context of a nation, an individual exception does not set the rule. That is, when we say "Americans are free" or "our nation, one nation, is free", we are not referring to the exceptions, like incarcerated felons, or those being held hostage be a criminal at some given moment.

America, and the American Government, has never rejected God... even to this very day. Some individuals in America would like to wag the dog and change that, but it has not happpened, not is it likely to happen any time soon. America is now, and always has been, on nation, under God. God the Creator granted America and Americans it's right to exist in freedom. Further, these truths were and are now, self-evident. read the the nation's founding document again and again until you truely understand that. There is no shade of gray.





by the Founding Fathers of the United States of America:

We hold these truths to be self-evident: - that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights

What "self-evident" means is that any person of basic cognative awareness and command of language need no further proof. It is defacto. Apparant to all. Not needing further discussion.

If you maintain this historical documentation is incorrect, altered, forged, false, or whatever, the burden shifts to you to show otherwise, which you have not done.



Thank you, Founding Fathers who risked everything and sacrificed so much to establish our great nation, under God!

 

[Greadius]

Originally posted by starlifter
THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE
(In Congress, July 4, 1776)
This is the first of a multi-part history lesson, both for Americans and for non-Americans.

Here is the start of your history lesson. The Decleration of Independance was not signed in Congress on July 4th.
And the Decleration of Independance is not and has never been a formal legal document. It was a statement of principles a decade before our government came into existence. Its historically relevant but legally irrelevant.

Originally posted by starlifter
But first.... be honest now... how many have really read the Constitution of the United States of America, the Bill of Rights, or even the Declaration of Independence?

I have all three of them within arms reach of my computer for quick back references.
Like double checking to make sure the Constitution never once mentions God, nations under God, the existence of God; yet the only time religion is mentioned is in the explicit limiting of its influence on public life.

Originally posted by starlifter
Some question truisms, like if America was indeed founded under God, and are we now still a nation .... one nation... under God.

The answer is, of course, yes.

I'm glad you convinced yourself. Can you now try a skeptic?

Originally posted by starlifter
You all know it, even if you don't post it... and even if you are an atheist.

You can't speak for me. No, I don't know it. I have spent an obscene amount of time studying that period of history, American history in general, and theories of American political governance. I'm absolutely convinced that I have NO idea what you base your belief on.

Originally posted by starlifter
The "Creator" is God, for those that are unfamiliar with English. Complete with the Capitalization. This is Paragraph Two, first sentence, BTW.

First of all, if the entire nation is under God, why did they wait until the second paragraph to mention it. Wouldn't it start out somethign like "Being a nation under God..."?
Secondly, its a relative statement, which is why I like it.
My parents created me in a hotel room two decades ago. That endowed me with the same rights as your manager in the sky creator did. Nifty, ain't it?

Originally posted by starlifter
There were atheists amongst our founding fathers. They all signed.

Those that opposed slavery signed too. I would have signed it as well. It was a document that embodied compromise, and has lasted as long because its fluidity. However, even then they understood that it would take a long time before the principles of the Constitution would be fully realized. Even in 1954, Congress would still occassionaly overstep their bounds. They still do it today... that is why there is a need for checks & balances.

Originally posted by ApocalypseKurtz
The US Senate passed a resolution 99-0 (!) supporting the Pledge with the words "Under God." I am quite dissapointed in some of the liberal senators for voting this way; I figured at least 20 or so would agree with the Circuit Court ruling.

They have nothing to gain and a lot to loose. Of course they would vote that way.
Who was the abstainer?

Originally posted by starlifter
The Constitution was concluded with the signatures of the delegates, regardless of faith, in the full acknowledgement the the Lord was all of theirs, even the atheists who chose not to believe. It was "our Lord".... not "the Lord" or "some God" or "a Warm Feeling" or " " (blank). This two word phrase is specifically and conspiciously inserted into the very document that you would not exect... the nuts and bolts framework of how our nation is supposed to operate.

So everyone who uses A.D. is acknowledging the existence of God?
It'd be tough to communicate the span of history in your world.

And you have yet to point to the part of the Constitution that pertains to religion in public life, or that depicts the nation under God.
And I don't like the fact that you group all the Founding Fathers into one, quote happy, session. They didn't agree on everything, and it is important attribute the quotes to the individuals in context instead of implying that everyone smarter than me mystically absolutely agreed on the use of the quote in every concievable situations.

I doubt the Founding Fathers would have been a big fan of any pledges of allegiance. There are Constitutional provisions against it, such as Article 6 of the Constitution.
Do you think it would be Unconstitutional for a Congressman to have to recite the pledge in order to take office?

 

[ChrTh]

I believe the abstainer was Jesse Helms, Sen. NC. He's been ill of late. (I can guarantee you he would've voted for it)

If someone knows for sure, though, please let us know.

EDIT: It was Helms. Here's the roll call: http://www.senate.gov/legislative/vote1072/vote_00163.html

 

[starlifter]

by VooDooAce:

Within this nation, there is a group that considers itself to live under god. Also true.

But not all of us live under that God. I don't. And I have a sneaky suspicion that none of you do, actually.

I think 'banning' the pledge takes things a bit far. Its harmless. Nobody, or at least the majority, when they say it, don't really believe the part about God anyway.

Your point #1 is nonsequitor to the consideration of the phrase "under God". The pledge is to the nation. You are equivocating with that part by stating a truism.

Statement #2 is a combination of truism, and personal opinion of your own faith. As a whole, it is likewise true, but does not modify the meaning of "under God". The last statement is baseless and is prima facia false.

Point #3: Without foundation. The majority are in fact believers in God, as shown be every objective measure ever taken in US history, even though the darkness and immoral leadership of the Clinton Years. imp: :flamedevi



Our nation, America, under God, granting all of us Liberty to this day!

 

[Greadius]

The pledge of allegiance was written by a socialist in 1892. Why doesn't that suprise me?

The words "Under God" were added because in the context of the Cold War it seemed odd that American schoolchildren were being indocrinated into patriotism by reciting a socialist pledge. Perfectly understandable. Would have made more sense to me to have kicked the pledge all toghether, but in 1954 the reasoning was understandable.

Now, in 2002, we don't have the red scare, and we have better methods of indocrinating our children into what America really is rather than a mindless pledge murmored and ignored by schoolchildren everywhere.

 

[starlifter]

Don't use "Year of our Lord" as an argument, please--you're undermining your case. That phrase was not invented by the Founding Fathers, and I can guarantee you when they wrote that they didn't consider the terminology. You're over-analyzing.

Actually, not. If you read the documentation of the disagreements and debates fo the time about these seemingly small and insignificant phrases, you realize that every word and phrase was thoroughly thought out. It was not a "rubber stamp" like you might expect on Capital Hill today. They knew. And they knew the message they were sending by signing it.


In the year of our Lord 1787, by unanimous consent... Constitution = "done"!

 

[Sanaz]

If I missed this, I apologize, but I didn't see it mentioned in the thread. The vote was 5-4 - does anyone know the split (conservative/liberal, and which presidents appointed which voters), and the minority/majority stances? Sometimes these are surprising, and the reasons given don't match exactly with the public information.

 

[Graeme the mad]

'and are we now still a nation .... one nation... under God.

The answer is, of course, yes.

You all know it, even if you don't post it... and even if you are an atheist

STARLIFTER EXPLAIN THIS

IT seems to show complete ignorance - you believe everyone in their hearts thinks god created America - I find that suggestion so laughable and as Ive pointed out b4 only believe it in the sense I believe the earth was created by mice.
Why do I therefore now it to be true.

 

[ChrTh]

Originally posted by Sanaz
If I missed this, I apologize, but I didn't see it mentioned in the thread. The vote was 5-4 - does anyone know the split (conservative/liberal, and which presidents appointed which voters), and the minority/majority stances? Sometimes these are surprising, and the reasons given don't match exactly with the public information.

Wrong vote. It was 2-1, but yeah, you bring up a good point. I'd imagine, though, that the dissent argument was similar to what others are saying...although I don't know if Appeals Courts print dissents.

 

[starlifter]

Creator could be your Judeo-Christian god. Creator could also be the Hindu god Brahma. Or creator could be my parents. Or the "primordial soup." For all we know, the word "Creator" was chosen because it could mean anything, not just the Judeo-Christian god.

Sorry Dralix, you speak with authoritative factual inexactitude. The records exist, to this very day, of the proceedings. The Creator refers to God, not just "anything".

I will allow you the honor of reearching this yourself. I've already done that in person, in Philadelphia .

You have no proved to me that the founding fathers believed that all men were endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights. This is not a statement of fact. "We hold these truths to be self-evident." You may hold them to be self-evident as well, but that certainly does not make them fact. It makes them the beliefs of the founding fathers.

It appears you need to revise your statement. It contradicts itself. You begin by asserting the beliefs of the Founding Fathers are not "proved" to your individual satisfaction. The last sentence asserts that they are indeed the beliefs of the Founding Fathers.

The clear cut print and words of the Declaration of Indepenence make it fact. Are you disputing they signed it? Or are you saying the DoI is false? Your statement makes almost no sense. You may choose to deny historical record, but that does not change the fact that it is the historical record!

PS, There are many other supporting documents form that convention, too. The DoI is not just a made up , false document.

We hold these truths to be self-evident: - that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights...
God Bless America, one nation, under God, from the moment of our founding...

 

[Graeme the mad]

STARLIFTER -

'STARLIFTER EXPLAIN THIS

IT seems to show complete ignorance - you believe everyone in their hearts thinks god created America - I find that suggestion so laughable and as Ive pointed out b4 only believe it in the sense I believe the earth was created by mice.
Why do I therefore now it to be true.'

'You can't speak for me. No, I don't know it. I have spent an obscene amount of time studying that period of history, American history in general, and theories of American political governance. I'm absolutely convinced that I have NO idea what you base your belief on.'

 

[starlifter]

IT seems to show complete ignorance - you believe everyone in their hearts thinks god created America - I find that suggestion so laughable and as Ive pointed out b4 only believe it in the sense I believe the earth was created by mice.

Graeme, this forum would definately be a duller place without you! Yes, that's a way of saying I'm glad you're here!

Now about mice.... it depends on what the definition of the word "mice" is.

Any congnatively functional life form capable of comprehending written language can read the Declaration of Independance. It is a matter of historical record, both in the Declaration, and the complete records of the convention in Independence Hall, that God the almighty Creator of man was the inspiration and His laws were self-evident and form the basic of legitimacy for the birth of America.

God does Bless America, our nation under God