Öjevind Lång
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The Baltic states and Ukraine had a separate national identity. What they didn't have was independence.
Poland as 1 of 10 new Civilizations added in BTS?
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The Baltic states and Ukraine had a separate national identity. What they didn't have was independence.
Öjevind Lång
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They did. That's why they became independent countries in 1918 and 1991, respectively.
Öjevind Lång;5519803 said:
@Öjevind Lång: Good point. I'm not actively debating here, but good point.
@Anyone interested in the Austrian name from earlier: The 'p' is an English thing--the Germans use a 'b' if I'm not mistaken. I'm not fluent in German, so I'm not too sure, but if you go to an American university, you can expect to see the 'p' spelling appear quite often. At least when I took my history classes I saw the 'p' spelling.
What I don't like here is that people tend to say that Poland should be included before X and Y... I wrote it several times, but I will repeat - as a petition creator - it was meant to be solely in favor of adding Poland, never against any other country.
Of course I think that it is possible to find some arguments which in my opinion should put Poland in first row of civs to be added, but I know that Firaxis is using totally different criteria and I know that if Poland will exist in BtS, then it will only in a scenario, like it was in Warlords. Maybe this time they will go one step further and make Poland playable in WW2 scenario, but probably not - there will be simply Axis and Allies...
Of course I think that it is possible to find some arguments which in my opinion should put Poland in first row of civs to be added, but I know that Firaxis is using totally different criteria and I know that if Poland will exist in BtS, then it will only in a scenario, like it was in Warlords. Maybe this time they will go one step further and make Poland playable in WW2 scenario, but probably not - there will be simply Axis and Allies...
doronron
King
Poland would be an interesting choice, largely due to their dominance in the medieval period. Australia might be interesting for a post-modern choice. Not certain regarding the smaller Baltic states that were subsumed by the Russian bear. Ukraine would be kinda neat, considering Kiev's and Moscow's struggle to become the dominant political power during the early medieval period.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
Well, it would probably make for a pretty dull game. Best you could hope for would be to become Hitler's vassal, which basically involve sitting put while he invades the USSR.
TheLastOne36
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well i think they want to make an "amazing" WW2 Scenario this time so i wouldn't be surprised if each nation that had something to do with the war, in this case Poland, Will each be playable for the scenario. But would you be surprised if they make it in?
Sofista
Deity
Germany attacked Poland on 1 September 1939. On the 17, the Soviet joined them. The Polish army surrendered on 6 October.
For comparison, the Battle of France lasted from 10 May to 25 June 1940.
For comparison, the Battle of France lasted from 10 May to 25 June 1940.
TheLastOne36
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Actually we never surrendered, there was no treaty or anything.
And we kept on fighting till the end, My great grandfather fought in the Battle of Poland, Monte Casino, D-Day and Market Garden himself. Many other poles fought even more then he has.
And yes we played a big part to the war, it's just the American view is very limited to the Western front and the Pacific. And how are we supposed to fight against Germany, Russia, and Slovakia at the same time? In comparison to the French who had only fought the Germans and surrendered nearly the same time as the Pole's "unofficial" Surrender. And besides i though Poland's "surrender" was a bit later then that, well whatever i'm probably wrong.
And we kept on fighting till the end, My great grandfather fought in the Battle of Poland, Monte Casino, D-Day and Market Garden himself. Many other poles fought even more then he has.
And yes we played a big part to the war, it's just the American view is very limited to the Western front and the Pacific. And how are we supposed to fight against Germany, Russia, and Slovakia at the same time? In comparison to the French who had only fought the Germans and surrendered nearly the same time as the Pole's "unofficial" Surrender. And besides i though Poland's "surrender" was a bit later then that, well whatever i'm probably wrong.
ww2commander
Emperor
TheLastOne36,
On a side note, being that today is the anniversary of D-Day (June 6th 1944), I hope the importance of what your great grandfather was a part of is remembered and celebrated.
On a side note, being that today is the anniversary of D-Day (June 6th 1944), I hope the importance of what your great grandfather was a part of is remembered and celebrated.
Sofista
Deity
Notice I wrote the Polish army surrendered, not Poland, not the Poles themselves. And I put in the dates of the French campaign exactly because it didn't last much longer, and they weren't sandwiched as you between two overwhelming forces. So if I gave the impression that I was trying to diminish the worth of your effort, I apologise.
dutchking - you really need some history background Polish forces were one of biggest in WW2 - according to www.ww2.pl portal fourth in terms of numbers Allied Army. They fought all over the Europe and Middle East in five groups: 1. regular Polish Army, 2. army formed in France in 1939, 2. army formed in UK 1940, 3. gen. Anders Army - 1941, formed in USSR - then they fought in Southern Europe, 4. 1943 again in USSR, this army fought together wuth Red Army on Eastern Front, 5. Polish Home Army (Armia Krajowa) - underground army acting in occupied Poland.
I have no time to enumerate all places, but I will post at least few best known: Battle of England, Narvik, Tobruk, Monte Cassino, Narmandy Invasion, Falaise, Chambois, Arnhem, whole eastern front, Polish Navy operated on Atlantic and Northern Sea all the war. At the end of war there was 600 thousands of Polish soldiers fighting in Western and Eastern Europe.
I don't think that if in this WW2 scenario when Nazi invades Poland and before Soviets invade (so between 1st and 17th September) France and UK would actually invade western Germany then situation of Poland would be so bad... we had quite big army, if Soviets wouldn't join Nazis and France and UK tied up some forces in the West, then it might be possible to defend Poland.
Polish forces were one of biggest in WW2 - according to www.ww2.pl portal fourth in terms of numbers Allied Army. They fought all over the Europe and Middle East in five groups: 1. regular Polish Army, 2. army formed in France in 1939, 2. army formed in UK 1940, 3. gen. Anders Army - 1941, formed in USSR - then they fought in Southern Europe, 4. 1943 again in USSR, this army fought together wuth Red Army on Eastern Front, 5. Polish Home Army (Armia Krajowa) - underground army acting in occupied Poland. I have no time to enumerate all places, but I will post at least few best known: Battle of England, Narvik, Tobruk, Monte Cassino, Narmandy Invasion, Falaise, Chambois, Arnhem, whole eastern front, Polish Navy operated on Atlantic and Northern Sea all the war. At the end of war there was 600 thousands of Polish soldiers fighting in Western and Eastern Europe.
I don't think that if in this WW2 scenario when Nazi invades Poland and before Soviets invade (so between 1st and 17th September) France and UK would actually invade western Germany then situation of Poland would be so bad... we had quite big army, if Soviets wouldn't join Nazis and France and UK tied up some forces in the West, then it might be possible to defend Poland.
TheLastOne36
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Well Civ 4 is a "what If" Game, So it would be funny if it ended up Poland conquering Germany before Soviets get a chance to play there part 
Don't forget that the Poles cracked the code for the Enigma machine.
"The German military model, the Wehrmacht Enigma, is the version most commonly discussed. The machine has gained notoriety because Allied cryptologists were able to decrypt a large number of messages that had been enciphered on the machine. Decryption was made in 1932 by Polish cryptographers Marian Rejewski, Jerzy Różycki and Henryk Zygalski from Cipher Bureau. In mid-1939 reconstruction and decryption methods were delivered from Poland to Britain and France. The intelligence gained through this source—codenamed ULTRA—was a significant aid to the Allied war effort. The exact influence of ULTRA is debated, but a typical assessment is that the end of the European war was hastened by two years because of the decryption of German ciphers."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_machine
It can also be added that the Polish military consisted of 1.7m soldiers (a lot for a 30m populated country), but only 900k were employed largely due to confusion in the first days of the invasion. German planes also bombed most of the main transportation/communication centers making it even harder for the Poles to organize a decent defense, and out of those 900k only ~200k had reached their assigned units on August 31.
The Polish army was "large" in essence, but it was horribly equipped. The infantry, the tanks, planes everything was out-dated. There was also a great lack of anti-tank guns. There were already newer models of tanks&planes in production or at least on the drawing table in 1939, but the Poles weren't expecting a war until 1942 (that is when their 10 year non-aggression pact with Germany ended), therefore all their war preparation was based on that.
I believe Poland couldn't had done much more in preparation for the war,being a financially weak nation and already pouring 1/3 of its income into the military. After all it had just regained its independence 20 years before the war and at that time the country was a mess and in the first years the Governments expanses were 3x larger than the income.
Poland's big mistake was trying to keep an equilibrium between Germany & Russia and counting too much on their British and France allies. Poland didn't want to side with Germany to not provoke Russia and via versa.
The sad fact remains that France had a larger and more powerful army than Germany at the start of the war, if they would had the courage to invade Germany then perhaps Europe could had been saved from the war.
"The German military model, the Wehrmacht Enigma, is the version most commonly discussed. The machine has gained notoriety because Allied cryptologists were able to decrypt a large number of messages that had been enciphered on the machine. Decryption was made in 1932 by Polish cryptographers Marian Rejewski, Jerzy Różycki and Henryk Zygalski from Cipher Bureau. In mid-1939 reconstruction and decryption methods were delivered from Poland to Britain and France. The intelligence gained through this source—codenamed ULTRA—was a significant aid to the Allied war effort. The exact influence of ULTRA is debated, but a typical assessment is that the end of the European war was hastened by two years because of the decryption of German ciphers."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_machine
It can also be added that the Polish military consisted of 1.7m soldiers (a lot for a 30m populated country), but only 900k were employed largely due to confusion in the first days of the invasion. German planes also bombed most of the main transportation/communication centers making it even harder for the Poles to organize a decent defense, and out of those 900k only ~200k had reached their assigned units on August 31.
The Polish army was "large" in essence, but it was horribly equipped. The infantry, the tanks, planes everything was out-dated. There was also a great lack of anti-tank guns. There were already newer models of tanks&planes in production or at least on the drawing table in 1939, but the Poles weren't expecting a war until 1942 (that is when their 10 year non-aggression pact with Germany ended), therefore all their war preparation was based on that.
I believe Poland couldn't had done much more in preparation for the war,being a financially weak nation and already pouring 1/3 of its income into the military. After all it had just regained its independence 20 years before the war and at that time the country was a mess and in the first years the Governments expanses were 3x larger than the income.
Poland's big mistake was trying to keep an equilibrium between Germany & Russia and counting too much on their British and France allies. Poland didn't want to side with Germany to not provoke Russia and via versa.
The sad fact remains that France had a larger and more powerful army than Germany at the start of the war, if they would had the courage to invade Germany then perhaps Europe could had been saved from the war.
Healz
General
Yes, sadly. That will always remain a what could have been.
PimpyMicPimp
Regrets His Username.
I would reeeaaalllyy like some different civs. By different I mean ones that arn't used in many other historical games. I'd love Poland, or Australia, or, Canada!
I just think it would be interesting and unique.
I just think it would be interesting and unique.
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