Poland

[sir_schwick]

Yeah, but a system where individual civs did not need to be balanced this would not be an issue. Firaxis could add all kinds of civs it could not before because of play-balance consideration.

I do like your suggestion dh, but some unit classes shoudl look different, such as European Knights versus Muslim Heavy Cavalry versus Steppe Cavalry versus Chinese Riders. Still, that would work for a lot of units, but the names definitely should be different.

 

[dh_epic]

I think you could still recycle some of it. A lot of recycling within the same culture group, while you'd need to differentiate between a lot of asian-looking UUs versus European looking UUs. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[sir_schwick]

I see what you mean and agree, but I also wish they would eliminate culture-groups as they are now. Your culture-group should be who you start near randomnly, not pre-determined by our earth history. This is a game of history possiblities, not recreation.

 

[dh_epic]

Dynamically determined culture groups does tie into this thread on culture spreading...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=102134

But that would kind of make culture-linked graphics nonsensical... or am I wrong on this one?

 

[sir_schwick]

Actually both the graphics and culture-groups would be Dynamic. If Japan, England, Aztecs, and Zulu all are in the same region, some process(save for the thread we are both in) would determine the graphics that go with this unique culture group.

 

[dh_epic]

But this kind of culture-crossing wouldn't happen until the end of the classical age, into the middle ages. You'd need to have a starting point for Japan, England, the Aztecs, and the Zulus... and have them all change depending on how much they interact with each other.

 

[sir_schwick]

Culture groups are not really important except when you interact outside them. That is the truth with any kind of grouping.

 

[Keirador]

Did I miss something? How did this thread turn from an unsubtle yet still widely misunderstood poke at GWB to a heated debate about the mechanics of Civ 4, which we will not be able to change?

 

[dh_epic]

Either it was too subtle for some, or we just have a knack for finding the serious elements in what would otherwise be a joke

 

[Geddy]

Why not make the US militaristic and religious? Much more realistic. Also we could remove it from the game as it doesn't seem to want to be a member of the civilizied nations in this world.

Moderator Action: Warned for nationality bashing.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Padma]

Moderator Action: I just cleaned up most of the not-so-subtle nation-bashing going on in this thread. If you want to discuss Poland as a Civ in the game, fine. If you want to poke fun at GWB/Poland/Canada/Whoever, go to Off Topic.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Jon Shafer]

I didn't see anything changed though...

 

[Camillo]

All right, maybe lets get on topic. I know that it's totally old topic, but forgive me.

Trip - I have red all this topic and I have to say that I really understand Your point of view. Most of people think that everything is so easy until they have to do this themselves. Making additional civs is not only an artist work but it also needs a lot of time spent for thinking over everything, thinking over what unit should be UU for this civ, what leader would be the best, what specialities he should have, then you need to study the history of the country, put it into civilopedia, and so on and on. It's really a lot of work and I understand it.

But the next important thing is to balance everything as good as possible and that's where I agree with You dear Trip. It doesn't make any sense to put two civilizations, which are almost identical like Slovakia and Czech Republic for example. Also we need to balance civilizations to make good and variable gameplay and so maybe the Malinese civilization next to German Empire is not very realistic but on the other hand it makes an interesting variety in the game and also Malinese empire existed in Africa and we had not too much African civilizations in Civ, so in final we can really find a few important reasons to have Mali Empire in Civ or any other civilization.

And thats where I think the Poland would also be the great addition. Poland is a very special civilization and putting it into Civ will make a good variety and will not harm any kind of balance in the game. The main reason for Poland to be in Civ is that it's one the biggest Slavian-culture country. Also it has a special geographical location - the heart of Europe. Poland is a civilization that exists since 10th century A.D. During the middle ages Poland was very, very important country and for some time it was even also one of the most powerful. Also many great people are Polish, like Copernicus, Pulaski, Kosciuszko, Walesa and so on. There are many, many historical reasons why Poland should be included into Civ – it was definately the country, which had a very important role in the Europe, especially during middle ages and what’s the most important – Poland is quite unique country and it would give some good variety and balance to the Civ. And what about it’s leader? No problem! Casimir the Great was one of the greatest Polish leaders in the middle ages and that’s the one who should be made a leader of Poland in Civ. He could be creative and spiritual I think. And what about an Unique Unit? No problem again! There was a very, very famous Polish Hussar, which is a kind of middle age knight – very fast knigt with very long lance – great against melee units and very famous during the middle ages. So this unit could replace regular knight and its special abilities could be +50% vs melee units and i.e. +50% chance of withdraw from battle. So in final I think that including Poland in Civ is a very good thing, because Poland is historically very important civilization, it is also quite unique civilization and putting in Poland would absolutely not harm the balance between civilizations or anything like this – it will only bring many good things.

And I’m really sorry for my English, as You can see I’m from Poland, so English is not my primary language, but I hope You understood everything I wrote...

 

[Camillo]

And one more important thing. We - some Polish fans of Civ - are planning to send some kind of petition to Sid, where we ask to have Poland in Civ4 expansion pack. We know that probably it would not change anything but however we have some hope.

The petition is like below. There are many reasons and historical facts in there telling You why there should be Poland in Civ.

"
Hi!

I'd like to say something about Sid Meier's Civilization IV. And about Civilization series at all.

I was very dissapointed, when I looked on new Civilization's tribes list and I didn't find Poland. Again... I know that my country doesn't have well promotion in the world. I know that polish nation have many opinions abroad - both good and bad. But, looking back at history and looking at present times, I think Poland deserve to be honored in Civilization's expansion pack.

You will ask: why Poland? There are many reasons, why Poland should be added to civilization's list. I send you just few...

1. HISTORY

- 10th century roots of first Polish Kingdom;

- XVI century - Poland both with Great Dutchery of Lithuania; (Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) was at this time one of Europe's most powerful countries;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth

- revolutionary heliocentric theory of the solar system developed by great Polish astronomer and mathematician, Nicolaus Copernicus;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copernicus

- Poland was a country of religious liberty and tolerance, "country without burning stakes";
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Confederation

- Polish troops were the only conquerors of Kremlin, Moscow;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_of_Troubles

- heavy cavalry - Polish Winged Hussar - was one of the most dangerous mounted unit of its time - even against gunpowder units such as musketman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Husarz.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kirchholm.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hetman_Zolkiewski_z_husaria.jpg
More ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussar )

- Tadeusz Kosciuszko and Kazimierz Pulaski - both Polish and American heroes of independence wars (American Revolutionary War and Polish Kosciuszko Uprising):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosciuszko
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazimierz_Pulaski
Phrase "For your freedom and ours" is commonly shown on polish military banners

- Constitution of May 3, 1791 - second, after American, modern constitution in the world and first in Europe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_third_May

- November 11, 1918 - Poland regained independence after 123 years of foreign (Germany, Austria, Russia) occupation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jozef_Pilsudski

- October 1920 - Battle of Warsaw called "18th most decisive battle in
world's history" (expression of lord d’Abernon, prominent military
historician) - culmination of Polish-Soviet War and great victory of Polish soldiers - they stoped invasion of Soviet Red Army to the Western Europe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Soviet_War

- 1932 - polish cryptologists broke Enigma's code, Nazi german portable cipher machine used to encrypt and decrypt secret messages - it is belived that breaking of Enigma's code shortened World War II by
12 months
http://www.enigmahistory.org/text.html

- September, 1 - October, 2 1939 - World War II - Poland fought against Nazi Germany and Soviet invasions and fell - Polish government moved to France and later to England - Poland never surrender and never collaborate with occupying authorities (the only exception in Europe). The Poles formed Home Army - one of the largest underground resistance movement during World War II largest underground army in Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Army

- World War II: 600,000 Polish soldiers fought on Allied side

- 1978 - Archbishop of Cracow, Karol Wojtyla, elected pope - John Paul II, one of the most beloved and influential Head of the Roman Catholic Church, begins to dismantling comunism in Europe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karol_Wojtyla

- August 1980 - Polish trade union federation rised conducted by Lech Walesa - "Solidarity" era begun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lech_Wałęsa

- June 4, 1989 - first democratic elections in Warsaw Pact - peaceful revolution in Poland starts chain reaction in Central and Eastern Europe - Cold War begun to end


2. PRESENT TIMES

POLAND
Population: 38,635,144 (above 58,000,000 with Polish diaspora)
Area: 312,685 km2
Member:
- NATO
- OECD
- European Union

More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland

====================================

These are FACTS, it is not my interpretation. In the end Copernicus' Observatory - Great Wonder in EVERY part of Civilisation series (except 4th part) - something mean - creation of Polish Side in Civilization would be a great final for all Polish fans of Sid Meier's Civilization.

If you are interested in common Polish and American history relations, I recommend you a book wrote by American authors Lynne Olson and Stanley Cloud: "A Question of Honor: the Kosciuszko Squadron in World War II" - briliant work!
http://www.questionofhonor.com/
"

 

[Elmstr]

what has poland done true history what is realy remarkable??

 

[Camillo]

All things I mentioned above. And even if Poland is obviously not so historical remarkable country like Russia or Germany, then so what? Was Mali? Was Inca? There are many reasons for Poland to be in Civ. Read everything I mentioned and gave You links and You will see.

 

[Poltjek]

Hey!
Listen folks:
We must admit that Camillo is right! Nice work Camillo

I also think Poland deserve to be honored in Civilization's expansion pack or perhaps in Civilization V !!!!!!
Please read all this what Camillo has linked, and you will probably understand why an addition of Poland is important. Poland has a great history.

Besides, there are no slavic civilizations except Russia that can't present the Eastern Europe. Just take a look on the Western Europe with the Germanic countries and the Southern Europe with the Romance countries and you will understand why Poland needs to be in the next Civilization game.

"The main reason for Poland to be in Civ is that it's one the biggest Slavian-culture country. Also it has a special geographical location - the heart of Europe. Poland is a civilization that exists since 10th century!"

So actually, I really don't understand why you are against this idea.

See-ya l8r folks..!

Poltjek

 

[KrikkitTwo]

All things I mentioned above. And even if Poland is obviously not so historical remarkable country like Russia or Germany, then so what? Was Mali? Was Inca? There are many reasons for Poland to be in Civ. Read everything I mentioned and gave You links and You will see.

Well no, Mali and the Inca are included for geographic balance only. The fact is, civs seem to get in for

1. recognizability as historically significant
2. geographical balance

Poland clearly fails the second so it has to make up the first, and here it competes with Portugal, the Netherlands, Austria, various Nordic powers, Ukraine, etc. (some of those it beats, others... not so well)

 

[Poltjek]

Hey again!
If some of you are interested in Poland as a playable civilization, you can download the mod on this site, where people have chated about how it should be created etc.:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=144016

Enjoy it. It's very nice, and I can't wait for the replacement of the current leaderheads with animated leaderheads!!!!!!

 

[Poltjek]

And Krikkitone...
I don't agree at all with you. Poland doesn't fails anything. It has a perfect geographical balance, and if you want to talk about "recognizability as historically significant" Poland is the most important nation of all the mentioned above. Learn it!

L8r.......