Policies: The time has come!

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Yeah landed elite still looks a bit boring, so let add that +GP idea back in.

Tradition

Opener: +3 culture in the capital. +1 food in the Capital for each policy of Tradition taken (including this one).

Aristocracy: +15% bonus to wonders, +1 Happy for each National Wonder

Legalism: Capital gains +2 science. Science buildings in the capital generate 5% more science.

Oligarchy: Palace gains +3 hammers and a specialist slot (engineer).

Landed Elite: +2 yields to Great Person Improvements. Borders expand faster.

Monarchy: +1 Gold per Pop in Capital, Capital provides +1 happy per 5 citizens.

Finisher: Can buy Great Engineers with Faith. Great Person +25% in the capital

I'd change the finisher and one of the capital only ones to be for the first few cities, with the new happiness system you don't really want to focus on a single city too much. You could also give the +x yields to GP improvements to the finisher, and have a policy that gives a boost to GP generation and requires the one that unlocks the engineer specialist.

 

[Stalker0]

I'd change the finisher and one of the capital only ones to be for the first few cities

So you mean, +25% GP in the first 4 cities kind of thing?

So right now, we have the following "general benefits" in teh tree.

1) Wonder production applies to all cities.
2) National Wonder happiness applies to all cities.
3) Border growth affects all cities.
4) Bonus to Great Improvement yields technically can go anywhere.

So as a breakdown:

Opener, Legalism, Oligarchy, Monarchy, and Finisher are Capital Only
Aristocracy and Landed Elite are all city benefits.

If made the Finisher more general, then that would be 4 policies capital only, 3 more general....which is probably a good balance.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I'd rather have 3 capital 4 general, due to the reason stated above and the fact that you don't spend a lot of time with one city only. The focus should be more on small empire than capital imo. the +GP% effect can of course be toned down a bit so it's not too good when it applies to multiple cities, and the ones that work for all cities could be changed to only work for the first 4. that way you can give bigger bonuses since they won't apply to all cities if the player expands a lot ( which is not what the tree is about )

 

[Stalker0]

Another version with some of the comments.


Tradition Version 1.0
--I have been remiss with versioning I shall formally start that now.

Opener: +3 culture in the capital. +1 food in the Capital for each policy of Tradition taken (including this one).

Aristocracy: +15% bonus to wonders, +1 Happy for each National Wonder

Legalism: Capital gains +2 science. Science buildings in the capital generate 5% more science.

Oligarchy: Palace gains +3 hammers and a specialist slot (engineer).

Landed Elite: Great Person Improvements generate +5 Golden Age Points. Borders expand faster.

--Trying out the Golden Age points idea. I'm curious what number people think is appropriate. I think its important to remember that:

1) Great Improvements are fairly rare
2) The number should be pretty meaty, because it has 0 benefit until a GA hits. Until then it has 0 benefit whatsoever.
3) Negative Unhappiness can erode the GA benefit.

Monarchy: +1 Gold per Pop in Capital, Capital provides +1 happy per 5 citizens.

Finisher: Can buy Great Engineers with Faith. Great Person +25% in your first 4 cities.

--Making this a little more meaty by expanding it to the first 4 cities.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

pretty nice. I'd change legalism to be for the first 4 cities and swap the GA points and the GP+25% . the latter could go down to 15% if it's not a finisher, then you could make the GA points meatier

 

[Lord Tirian]

pretty nice. I'd change legalism to be for the first 4 cities and swap the GA points and the GP+25% . the latter could go down to 15% if it's not a finisher, then you could make the GA points meatier

On the finisher, I'd do GA points differently, the finisher should strongly encourage going tall, so I'd say it would add GA points equal/proportional to your capital size.

But I like the latest draft, seems okay power-wise and each policy has enough "oomph" to make it interesting, I think.

 

[Funak]

Another version with some of the comments.

Thime for one of these again, been a while.


Tradition Version 1.0
--I have been remiss with versioning I shall formally start that now.

Opener: +3 culture in the capital. +1 food in the Capital for each policy of Tradition taken (including this one).

This is fine, I would have prefered %food, but I can't get everything I want.

Aristocracy: +15% bonus to wonders, +1 Happy for each National Wonder
Still would have put actual yields on the NWs but I can't have everything

Legalism: Capital gains +2 science. Science buildings in the capital generate 5% more science.

Fun I guess, maybe

Oligarchy: Palace gains +3 hammers and a specialist slot (engineer).

Probably the best made policy in here, probably because it was my idea =D. Would be more fun with more specialists, but I don't know honestly.

Landed Elite: Great Person Improvements generate +5 Golden Age Points. Borders expand faster.

--Trying out the Golden Age points idea. I'm curious what number people think is appropriate. I think its important to remember that:

1) Great Improvements are fairly rare
2) The number should be pretty meaty, because it has 0 benefit until a GA hits. Until then it has 0 benefit whatsoever.
3) Negative Unhappiness can erode the GA benefit.


Not a huge fan, would rather see yields or culture on them.

Monarchy: +1 Gold per Pop in Capital, Capital provides +1 happy per 5 citizens.

Still powerful, still boring

Finisher: Can buy Great Engineers with Faith. Great Person +25% in your first 4 cities.

--Making this a little more meaty by expanding it to the first 4 cities.

I honestly don't like these "first 4 cities" policies feels like you're losing out if you settle less or more than that. Either keep them global or local (capital)


If you're still having problems filling the tree I would suggest a yieldbonus to worked specialists Either 1hammer 1food(already exists in freedom, but having 2 is fine) or 1culture would work fine. I want the science on specialists is rationalism, the gold on specialists in commerce and the faith on specialists in piety so don't mess with those please =D

 

[mystikx21]

Powerful effects that are boring are fine in balance terms. I don't see that as a significant compliant that we "have to" change something there versus a weak effect that only becomes "balanced" by making it outrageously strong (and thus easily imbalanced). Gold and happiness are pretty straightforward. If something more interesting comes along, keep in mind we have a lot of trees to work with. Not everything needs to be sexy and glamorous if it works.

I would much rather have GA points than additional happiness, additional culture, or a different yield (from this tree at least). It also mirrors if there's a GA point effect used by Honor for Generals and/or Admirals, which is a good symmetry potentially, one which rewards distinct choices in play with a modest bonus (that accumulates throughout the game as early settlement of GPs can usually pay off). One thing I'd point out as a logistical question is whether that should work with Great Works of Art, Writing or Music or just landmarks.

I would not add any bonus to worked specialists unless it applies only in the capital. Again, from this tree, Funak's suggestions for other specialist improvements may be fine when we get to those.

I am also somewhat skeptical of "bonus in x cities" policies here. They come off as arbitrary in most cases. It is true that's a typical core, but it hardly seems necessary to reward core development in that way.

 

[Funak]

I would much rather have GA points than additional happiness, additional culture, or a different yield (from this tree at least). It also mirrors if there's a GA point effect used by Honor for Generals and/or Admirals, which is a good symmetry potentially, one which rewards distinct choices in play with a modest bonus (that accumulates throughout the game as early settlement of GPs can usually pay off). One thing I'd point out as a logistical question is whether that should work with Great Works of Art, Writing or Music or just landmarks.

I honestly don't like GA-points as a yield. It is either meh, or extremely powerful depending on if you're Persia/Brazil or not.

I would not add any bonus to worked specialists unless it applies only in the capital. Again, from this tree, Funak's suggestions for other specialist improvements may be fine when we get to those.

I don't see why that should be a limit either way. We have the tech to add benefits for specialists in just one city, but considering the majority of your specialists are going to be in the capital I don't really see why that limit is needed. But I'm fine either way tbh.

I am also somewhat skeptical of "bonus in x cities" policies here. They come off as arbitrary in most cases. It is true that's a typical core, but it hardly seems necessary to reward core development in that way.

Right! They just feel weird

 

[mitsho]

Golden Age points are fine, but probably hard to balance (spamming Great Improvements), though they might lead to special strategies like if Great Merchants are easier to get by via Commerce... I like it.

Bonus in x cities are "bad" because it means you need to (have) built those cities and they are up to speed to profit. Tradition as focusing on the capital only is a good way of opposing it to Honor and Liberty (we should keep the names...). A very tall capital has been nerfed a bit by the new happiness system, no? I can't have trade routes focused there either, no? So 'needs playtesting'

 

[Funak]

Golden Age points are fine, but probably hard to balance (spamming Great Improvements), though they might lead to special strategies like if Great Merchants are easier to get by via Commerce... I like it.

Bonus in x cities are "bad" because it means you need to (have) built those cities and they are up to speed to profit. Tradition as focusing on the capital only is a good way of opposing it to Honor and Liberty (we should keep the names...). A very tall capital has been nerfed a bit by the new happiness system, no? I can't have trade routes focused there either, no? So 'needs playtesting'

you also get the same bonus that commerce get to great merchants for great scientists in rationalism (and they are actually useful).

Other than that I'm fine with just capital bonuses and entire empire bonuses, but those X first cities are silly. (not only for the reasons mentioned before, but also because the number of cities you SHOULD found goes up with mapsize)

 

[Stalker0]

Looks like the tradition debate is starting to come down to nitty gritty, which is good indicates we are getting conceptually closer I think.

For the x number of cities debate, I don't have a strong preference myself but I will go ahead and defend the concept:

1) we have to assume some standards with our balancing. It's true that a larger or smaller map would make x city stronger or weaker. But then again raging barbarians and always war options would make honor a lot stronger.

2) one of our goals is to make it so that you don't have to take the whole tree to get value.

So if there is a policy that wouldn't give me as much in a specific situation...I don't have to take it.

3) finishers can break the mold a bit I feel. So if we did x city only as a finisher I don't think that is too out of place.

So that's my argument for...but as I said at the beginning capital only would serve me just fine.


For landed elite, ga points or yields? I general I will say that yields would be a stronger bonus. As we saw comparing the passive tradition culture to active honor...it takes a lot to beat the steady always there bonus.

That said ga points i think are a more interesting yield, as there are few things that provide it.

 

[Funak]

For landed elite, ga points or yields? I general I will say that yields would be a stronger bonus. As we saw comparing the passive tradition culture to active honor...it takes a lot to beat the steady always there bonus.

That said ga points i think are a more interesting yield, as there are few things that provide it.

I'm again going to voice my opinion that GA-points are extremely boring, and if that's the only option you'd accept than I would rather we scratched the whole thing and figured something new out.

 

[mystikx21]

I'd rather they be GA points personally. I find it interesting. I don't find more yields that early to be that useful. It's possible we could combine these effects, with a very minor yield bonus plus some GA points, to go with however the citadel is bonused, but if there isn't an early bonus to citadels, there's little need for them in other GIs. Their value early on is as yields already. Rewarding having settled them should come later.

 

[Funak]

I'd rather they be GA points personally. I find it interesting. I don't find more yields that early to be that useful. It's possible we could combine these effects, with a very minor yield bonus plus some GA points, to go with however the citadel is bonused, but if there isn't an early bonus to citadels, there's little need for them in other GIs. Their value early on is as yields already. Rewarding having settled them should come later.

Fine by me.
Most of them need a buff atm however, no one is going to settle a great engineer for 4 hammers vs a free wonder. (academies are fine imo. With CSD you don't really have a choice with merchants since the trademissions don't provide any influence anymore)

Anyways if that's your feeling on it how about we just drop the idea entirely and just figure out a new bonus? Can't be that hard. +1 food on specialists in the capital or +1 production on specialists in all cities?

Not really related to anything but I always wanted a foodbased great person, but I guess foodbased specialists would make no sense. Abilities could have been great farm improvemen or an instantboost for X citygrowth, maybe build a unique growthbonus building in a city. He will always be in my dreams, the Great Farmer

 

[Gazebo]

We can probably setup the x # of cities stuff for buildings and/or policies to scale with mapsize. I'll need to look at it.

That said, I'm in the minority, but I happen to like free buildings from policies.
G

 

[mystikx21]

@Funak GI tiles were adjusted in the CEP folder of changes I put up on Github. Manufactories I don't know that any amount of production early on is worth it that they can be balanced properly (you can almost always get a wonder or save it for an upcoming one). But scientists as academies or merchants as CH are usually going to be worth it early on.

Food based specialist would make no sense yes. That's called a fish or wheat tile.

I'd still prefer to have GA points than to improve specialists significantly in that tree. But a +1 production from them in the capital only might be okay (instead of +3 on the palace). There's no way I would think +1 production for all specialists everywhere in tradition would be balanced as it is a late-game wonder effect presently.

 

[Stalker0]

I think we have given enough production in the capital with tradition currently, so I wouldn't want to add more to the specialists. Culture I think would be fine, but would that be too boring?

I heard the compromise idea of doing both GA points and Yields...so how about we start with that.


Tradition Version 1.1

Opener: +3 culture in the capital. +1 food in the Capital for each policy of Tradition taken (including this one).

Aristocracy: +15% bonus to wonders, +1 Happy for each National Wonder

Legalism: Palace gains +2 science. Science buildings in the capital generate 5% more science.

Landed Elite: Great Person Improvements generate +2 Yields and +5 Golden Age Points. Borders expand faster.

Oligarchy: Palace gains +3 hammers and a specialist slot (engineer). Requires Legalism

Monarchy: +1 Gold per Pop in Capital, Capital provides +1 happy per 5 citizens. Requires Legalism

Finisher: Can buy Great Engineers with Faith. Great Person +25% in your first 4 cities.

 

[mystikx21]

I'd rather the GP improvements get bonuses in commerce/rationalism/aesthetics/freedom. The border expansion and the GA points is good honestly as is without some other feature in my opinion. The only reason to put some yields with it is if the citadel is also boosted by honor.

+2 science per academy early on is potentially a large bonus, if that's the route.

 

[skodkim]

That said, I'm in the minority, but I happen to like free buildings from policies.
G

Well you're not alone

\Skodkim