Policies

[Txurce]

The +10% and +10% is really less useful than filling out Liberty for a small empire? Hmm... one question then... would yall consider Landed Elite or Monarchy more useful with these stats:

• Landed Elite
  +4 in the
  +2 per defensive building
• Monarchy
  +5
  +2 per wonder
  +15% for wonders

I'd like both sides of the Tradition tree to be about equally valuable. If the tree as a whole is too weak, I can buff its finisher.

Much as I love food, I would take Monarchy with a tall empire.

 

[Thalassicus]

In that case, what about:

• Landed Elite
  +20% Surplus Food (was 4 food in capital)
  +2 per defensive building
• Monarchy
  +2 per wonder
  +20% for wonders (was 15)
• Tradition Finisher
  +15% Food (was 10)
  +1 per 5 (was 10)

 

[Txurce]

In that case, what about:

• Landed Elite
  +20% surplus (was 4 food in capital)
  +2 per defensive building
• Monarchy
  +3 per wonder (was 2)
  +15% for wonders
• Tradition Finisher
  +15% (was 10)
  +15% (was 10)

I really like it - particularly switching LE to %, and the Tradition finisher, which is definitely worth filling out the tree for.

On a side note, I always enjoy semi-dialogues like the preceding one, where you see just how differently people play.

 

[Zaldron]

Much as I love food, I would take Monarchy with a tall empire.

I second this: I would take that Monarchy too. There are just too may *other* ways to get food (river farms for example).

 

[Zaldron]

In that case, what about:

• Landed Elite
  +20% Surplus Food (was 4 food in capital)
  +2 per defensive building
• Monarchy
  +2 per wonder
  +20% for wonders (was 15)
• Tradition Finisher
  +15% Food (was 10)
  +1 per 5 (was 10)

(Sorry about the double post but I'm not sure how to quote multiple posts in the same reply). I like this a lot, it might actually induce me to take the tradition finisher (in my last 2-3 games I did 3 into liberty, 4 in tradition and then started filling out the advanced trees, not even finish liberty OR tradition until near the end of the game). Landed elite becomes a little weaker in the early game at the benefit of possibly being a LOT better later on (for tall, high food empires).

 

[Slin]

I think the main problem with tradition is that most of the "lvl 1" policies sucks.

 

[Thalassicus]

• Oligarchy is useful if an AI rushes us.
• The 4 free temples policy is useful for a quick National Epic.
• Legalism I buffed in the early game, and could improve further to 10 if that'd be helpful.

 

[Zeppelin4]

• Oligarchy is useful if an AI rushes us.
• The 4 free temples policy is useful for a quick National Epic.
• Legalism I buffed in the early game, and could improve further to 10 if that'd be helpful.

I sure don't claim to be a expert or anything but the last thing I think we need is more gold in the game. I never seem to have any gold issues in my games and I consider me to be a above average player at best.

 

[Thalassicus]

In general it seems production is more useful in the early game, and gold is more useful in late game. It's not until the Renaissance or so that our gold income starts increasing significantly. This is why an early bonus seems to help.

 

[Core Xii]

4 free culture buildings is a terrible policy for Tradition, I always take it very last. Firstly, it's boring. Rewards little planning or strategy, pick it, bam, free buildings. Also it's not retroactive. Once I popped it, then had the city captured from me, and when I retook it the free building was gone, and I wouldn't get another one even though I hadn't used all 4 yet. It's also difficult to grasp exactly what buildings you get and where. Furthermore, it gives 1 building in 4 cities, not 4 buildings spread over all of your cities - So it demands having at least 4 cities to get the full benefit, which is counter to tall empires.

If nothing else, I would at least change it such that it actually does what it says; Gives you 4 culture buildings for free. As in, the next 4 culture buildings can be purchased for 0 gold, anywhere, whichever building you want. This involves more interesting decisions than gaming the system about when to pop it for the most benefit.

 

[mitsho]

second that, we need a different solution for 4 culture buildings, it's counterinitiative to Tall empires and it needs to be taken last for best effect (monuments are not good enough if you only get one or two, and by the time you have 4 cities, you can get a monument quite easily and if you don't have 4 monuments yet, you only get 1 or 2 monuments, not worth enough.

I'd suggest depart from the culture idea completely and look at the name of the policy (I honestly have no idea what it is...) or what tall empires could need. Why not a science or gold-related policy?

 

[Txurce]

4 free culture buildings is a terrible policy for Tradition, I always take it very last. Firstly, it's boring. Rewards little planning or strategy, pick it, bam, free buildings. Also it's not retroactive. Once I popped it, then had the city captured from me, and when I retook it the free building was gone, and I wouldn't get another one even though I hadn't used all 4 yet. It's also difficult to grasp exactly what buildings you get and where. Furthermore, it gives 1 building in 4 cities, not 4 buildings spread over all of your cities - So it demands having at least 4 cities to get the full benefit, which is counter to tall empires.

If nothing else, I would at least change it such that it actually does what it says; Gives you 4 culture buildings for free. As in, the next 4 culture buildings can be purchased for 0 gold, anywhere, whichever building you want. This involves more interesting decisions than gaming the system about when to pop it for the most benefit.

I found the underlying vanilla rules confusing as well at first, although I finally absorbed them. I disagree with the rest of of your opinion, but mostly for equally subjective reasons: I think getting a free building (as opposed to a % increase of something) is fun, and don't feel screwed if I only have a 3-city empire.

Speaking more definitively, none of the policies require planning or strategy: you pick one and it delivers. When you pick a policy is about the only element of strategy involved that I can see. So I was confused by your opinion that doing so is gaming the system. Don't you generally pick a policy for when it will give you the most benefit?

 

[Ahriman]

I also dislike the effect, and would gladly replace it with something completely different. But we need a sensible proposal if we want to argue for a change. There are very few things we can do with policies.

I don't think "next 4 culture buildings cost 0 gold, anywhere" is technically feasible.

We already have Legalism that boosts gold in the capital.

A % culture yield in all cities seems like a possibility, this would tend to favor tall empires that built temples early on or concentrated on wonders.
Other % yields might also work.

But none of these seem obviously more interesting than the existing policy.

 

[Gamewizard]

I like the policy actually. You have many options with it. Use it early for Monuments or Temples, use it later for Opera Houses/Museums, or use it much later for Broadcast Towers. As long as your first 4 cities have a culture building to build, it is a useful policy. And I believe in Thal's mod the policy is on its lonesome in the middle of the tree, unlike vanilla, so you're not forced to take it early in order to get the later policies.

 

[Core Xii]

Speaking more definitively, none of the policies require planning or strategy: you pick one and it delivers. When you pick a policy is about the only element of strategy involved that I can see. So I was confused by your opinion that doing so is gaming the system. Don't you generally pick a policy for when it will give you the most benefit?

I disagree. Consider some of the other things policies grant for free:

• Free Settler. Big decision involved about where to plonk that city
• Free Worker. What improvements will you build?
• Free Great General. Make combat decisions with him
• Free Great Merchant. Customs house, trade mission or golden age?

All of these involve decision making after picking the policy. Free cultural buildings generally do not, except maybe adding a specialist. You pick the policy, get your buildings and then forget about it as if the policy didn't even exist. Other policies have you doing something interesting with that bonus.

You have many options with it. Use it early for Monuments or Temples, use it later for Opera Houses/Museums, or use it much later for Broadcast Towers. As long as your first 4 cities have a culture building to build, it is a useful policy. And I believe in Thal's mod the policy is on its lonesome in the middle of the tree, unlike vanilla, so you're not forced to take it early in order to get the later policies.

Problem is, with the introduction of policy finishers, not taking it could be costing you the benefit of the finisher, if it's the last policy remaining in the tree (which is almost universally the case for me, because the later you stall it the greater the benefit). +15% is nothing to scoff at when going tall.

 

[Thalassicus]

Ahriman is right. Our options for policy effects are limited, so it's hard to find things to replace it with. The free-culture-buildings policy is completely coded in the game core we don't have access to (yet).

The strategy with it is:

1. Build 4 cities
2. Buy monuments
3. Get Philosophy
4. Get the policy
5. Four instant temples
6. Immediately start building National Epic.

Temples are normally rather expensive to buy in the early game, so it can provide a very quick and early culture boost. This is mainly valuable in a culture victory game. I've used it in a science game too, when I had numerous clothing resources around my cities, which are good for Temples (religious institutions often have more elaborate clothing than average).

 

[The_J]

Moderator Action: The post by DragonGreen is now here.

 

[Gamewizard]

I don't know if this is currently possible or not, but I think all policy trees should be open from the start, and that the various tiers in each tree should require the tech eras to unlock. This way, the later policy trees (Order and Autocracy in particular) would be more attainable. As it is now, I don't ever see myself finishing those 2 trees, which I find unfortunate.

With this method, policy finishers could prolly get a boost, since they would all be first available at the beginning of the Industrial Era. I think finishing Autocracy as Infantry and Artillery come online would be alot of fun and would really replicate the World War II type of war.

 

[GoodRevrnd]

I don't know if this is currently possible or not, but I think all policy trees should be open from the start, and that the various tiers in each tree should require the tech eras to unlock. This way, the later policy trees (Order and Autocracy in particular) would be more attainable. As it is now, I don't ever see myself finishing those 2 trees, which I find unfortunate.

With this method, policy finishers could prolly get a boost, since they would all be first available at the beginning of the Industrial Era. I think finishing Autocracy as Infantry and Artillery come online would be alot of fun and would really replicate the World War II type of war.

I agree with this, to an extent. You might not need ALL unlocked at the start (for instance 1st tier Order might not unlock until Medieval era), but I think most of them should be available sooner and then contain tiers within them. This would probably require a massive policy effect overhaul across the board, though. I also realize this is probably all completely impossible w/o dll access.

 

[Txurce]

This would probably require a massive policy effect overhaul across the board, though.

Exactly. And then you would effectively have the same situation, with later-tier policies replacing later-tier trees.