Polish Cavalry 1939

[tom2050]

The problem with this is that the palette is going to be all wrong. For a tutorial on how to make a unit_32 see this post.

True, I made this one incorrectly so it shows blue color in the game. But I didn't have much time when I made it, so just resorted to the quick route. Forgot to mention that in my post. I haven't messed around with palettes in a while, although I still remember them somewhat well from last year. Thanks for the link, it will help refresh my memory.

I'll redo the 32 pcx for calvary, it will be good refresher practice.

Tom

 

[Domen]

It doesn't look like Polish 1939 cavalry at all (especially his cap looks like from Napoleonic period rather than from 1939).

It should look like this (and they used helmets in combat - French-made helmets type 1915, so called "Adrian"):

http://www.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~bolas/main/home.htm







And some OOBs:

http://niehorster.orbat.com/029_poland/organizations/brig_cav.html

http://niehorster.orbat.com/029_poland/organizations/co-cav.html

http://wp39.struktury.net/pulk-kawalerii.html

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Lances were not in use in 1939 (except of parades).

The last use of lances in combat by Polish cavalry was in Polish-Soviet war of 1920.

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Polish Horse Artillery (2nd Horse Artillery Battalion from Volhynian Cavalry Brigade) in the battle of Mokra:







http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=15600&start=30

Pre-war military exercise of Dywizjony Artylerii Konnej (Horse Artillery Battalions):


Link to video.

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And here some (very rare for the Polish side) combat photage from September 1939:

17th Uhlan Regiment soon before attacking German positions in Walewice, 10 September 1939 ("Adrian" helmets can be seen):



Commander of 15th Uhlan Regiment saying goodbye to his soldiers, Warsaw, 28 September 1939:



And one more - Warsaw, 27 September 1939, Uhlans of Greater Poland Cavalry Brigade:



Warsaw, September 1939 - soldiers in "Adrian" helmets (so either cavalry or some reserve / improvised infantry unit) defending baricade:



Late August / early September 1939 - 1st Uhlan Regiment march to the front from garrison in Augustow:



Pre-war photo (probably early 1930s):



Cavalry with AT gun (described as wartime photo):

 

[Wyrmshadow]

It doesn't look like Polish 1939 cavalry at all (especially his cap looks like from Napoleonic period rather than from 1939).

It should look like this (and they used helmets in combat - French-made helmets type 1915, so called "Adrian"):

Better?



You posted about a 6 year old unit. I've since remade a better one with czapka and Adrian helmet.
[download]

 

[Domen]

Better?

A bit better. But still looks Napoleonic, rather than WW2 (1939), in my opinion...

Colorful uniform, lance (lances were not used in combat in 1939, they were left in garrisons before units marched to the frontline), rogatywka cap similar to that used in Napoleonic times (at best in 1920) or during parades in 1930s, rather than those used in the field during real war.

And where is this "Adrian" helmet that you mentioned?

In general the uniform of your cavalryman, looks more like parade uniform, rather than field uniform...

It is simply too beautiful, to look like field uniform of this period.

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BTW - here are types of caps used in the field (especially "rogatywka" cap of soldier on the left) - photo taken in Warsaw after capitulation:



Garrison of Warsaw marches to captivity (after capitulation):





And here is a pre-war photo in field uniforms (with "Adrian" helmets):

 

[Domen]

If you want cap instead of "Adrian" helmet - it should be like this - "rogatywka polowa wzór 1937" ("field cap type 1937"):



You can see it also below. On the photo below number 1 is field cap ("rogatywka" model) type 1937. And number 2 is field cap ("furażerka" model) type 1923, some of them were still in use in 1939, but type 1937 "rogatywka" cap was much more popular. And number 3 is "Adrian" helmet:

http://paw1989.blogspot.com/2010/05/uan-szeregowy-kawalerii-polskiej.html



Guy on the left has field cap type 1937 and lance, guy on the right has helmet type 1915 ("Adrian") and Browning light machine gun:



But lances - as I wrote above - were not used in combat in 1939 (last combat use was in 1920, Polish-Soviet war). Cavalry used sabers & pistols in charges (but charges were very rare, cavalry usually fought like infantry - on foot - and used grenades + rifles with bayonets in close combat, rather than sabers).

 

[Wyrmshadow]

Well if you think you can do a better job, I'd like to see you try.

 

[Domen]

I don't think I can do a better unit graphics.

But I showed you that the unit you made is not similar to Polish cavalry of 1939, even though the graphics looks beautiful.

If you don't mind, please make this unit once again (this time make it as beautiful as last time, but with more historically accurate look ).

And also - your cavalryman has large moustache, but I think everyone has to be shaven in the army, or at least it is recommended (so I don't think you would find many soldiers with moustache in Polish cavalry formations in 1939 - especially with such large moustache... ).

As I already told you - you rather made a Polish cavalryman at Somosierra, 1808 (at best from 1920) - not a Polish cavalryman from 1939.

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You are simply unlucky - a WW2 (especially Poland in WW2) history buff found your unit.

 

[T-mun]

And I think you tried to poke the dragon and had luck the first time but didn't understand it. Wyrmshadow redoing his unit was a nice move that I wouldn't have expected, even though he is a nice guy. Take it or leave it, but please stay polite. And put your big pics in spoilers please.

 

[Domen]

Wyrmshadow redoing his unit was a nice move that I wouldn't have expected, even though he is a nice guy. Take it or leave it, but please stay polite. And put your big pics in spoilers please.

I am polite. If you make something you have to be open for criticism.

Redoing his unit was a nice move, yes. But it is still not 100% accurate. I don't play Civ 3 so I don't really care about all these units, no matter who made them, I just found this thread and decided to point out what is good & what is not good, since I know a lot about this part of history (WW2).

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BTW (from some far away page of this thread):

I've been hearing everyone talk about how WWII became the end for massive cavalry use.

I've been hearing everyone talk about how WWII became the end for massive use of... armed forces. So far, at least.

Cavalry was used in WW2 where motor transport was insufficient and / or there was lack of motor transport.

Today cavalry is also used in difficult terrain (as someone pointed out - PRC in Afghanistan), but there is no "massive use", because there are no massive conflicts fought in such conditions (there are no ANY massive conflicts, on the same scale as WW2 - especially Eastern Front of WW2).

 

[Gary Childress]

If you don't mind, please make this unit once again (this time make it as beautiful as last time, but with more historically accurate look ).

At civ scale it's hard to tell one hat from the other. I think it's only in the extra large preview that anyone can notice the difference and the extra large preview isn't going to appear in game anyway.

One of the things that has always bummed me out about Civ III is the tiny scale. I have a great collection of props myself but at Civ scale it doesn't make much difference if I use a Lee Enfield or a 1903 Springfield, they all look about the same.

 

[Domen]

At civ scale it's hard to tell one hat from the other.

Ok then. But still this lance is not accurate.

As I wrote - there are no examples of combat usage of lances by Polish cavalry in the 1939 Campaign. They were used only during parades.

Sabers, yes (even though cavalry in 1939 fought on horseback only occasionally). But lances, no.

Cavalry in the Polish army in 1930s was not much more than elite, mounted infantry. It fought 95% of its engagements dismounted (on foot).

It moved to battles on horseback, but fought dismounted (only horse-keepers were being left behind the lines to keep the horses).

And actually the motorization of cavalry was already in progress - in September 1939 Poland mobilized 11 "horse-drawn" cavalry brigades, but also 2 motorized ones. All cavalry was planned to be motorized, but Poland was a poor country & Hitler invaded before motorization could be completed.

Apart from shortage of money, there were other problems. Such as low level of motorization of the country as a whole (= shortage of people with driving license, shortage of motor vehicles & industry producing them). Only Romania and a few other European countries were less motorized than Poland.

One of the things that has always bummed me out about Civ III is the tiny scale.

Yes the tiny scale makes improvements in graphics less visible.

BTW I still think that Civ I was the best of Civ series, even though it has terrible graphics by today standards.

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Edit:

And this huge "Bóg, Honor, Ojczyzna" is also a bit annoying to me. It would fit to Mel Gibson's pathetic / nationalistic movies.

Alongside with his large moustache and all this archaic look (in my opinion Napoleonic, as I already wrote), the "Bóg, Honor, Ojczyzna" ("God, Honour, Fatherland") - looks ridiculous. I posted some photos of how cavalry in 1939 really looked like - including even wartime photos.

The "Za Waszą i Naszą Wolność" ("For Your and Our Freedom") also fits more to Napoleonic period, or to the Spring of 1848, when Poland was occupied (partitioned) and fought for independence abroad (including Poles fighting in American War for Independence or in Hungary).

 

[Wyrmshadow]

If you do not play Civ3 I do not care what you think. Simple as that. And digging up a 6 year old thread is annoying.

I made this unit as accurately as possible with the tools I had on hand. I added the lance because it was part of the equipment and if it was seen I also wanted it to be used.

Also, you may think you are being polite pointing out all the things that is wrong with it.. you're not. You're just being an anal retentive annoying know-it-all that I could not care any less for. Welcome to my ignore list. Goodbye.

 

[Domen]

Ok, so you simply can't handle any criticism. That's your problem, not mine.

I would like you to treat my comments rather as advice, than as "insults", or whatever.

You had the opportunity to learn something about Polish cavalry in 1939, how it fought, etc., but in such case - i'm not going to waste my time any longer.

I'm out. Happy Easter everyone (even though it just ended).

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Edit:

And digging up a 6 year old thread is annoying.

It just popped up out of nowhere when I was searching something using the "Search" option in the upper right corner.

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Edit 2:

Also, you may think you are being polite pointing out all the things that is wrong with it.. you're not. You're just being an anal retentive annoying know-it-all that I could not care any less for. Welcome to my ignore list. Goodbye.

This response only confirms, that sharing information in this thread, is a waste of my time.

You're just being an anal retentive annoying know-it-all

Well, that's your point of view. A very polite one, by the way. Much more polite than my comments.

I made this unit as accurately as possible with the tools I had on hand.

Ok. Then apparently you had some shortage of tools on hand?

I added the lance because it was part of the equipment

Yes - parade equipment.

and if it was seen I also wanted it to be used.

It was seen and used during parades.

Also, you may think you are being polite pointing out all the things that is wrong with it.. you're not.

I wasn't rude definitely (until this post - in this one I am rude, but I'm just responding to rudeness). Maybe you are simply over-sensitive?

You're just being an anal retentive annoying know-it-all

This is a response sooooo typical for those who consider themselves as know-it-alls (but they don't think they are annoying, of course).

 

[Gary Childress]

Artists and critics seldom seem get along very well I'm afraid. On the one hand you throw your time and energy into something that you are proud of and someone comes along and shreds it to pieces. OTOH you have a good point about the merrits of accuracy.

Ok, so you simply can't handle any criticism. That's your problem, not mine.

I would like you to treat my comments rather as advice, than as "insults", or whatever.

You had the opportunity to learn something about Polish cavalry in 1939, how it fought, etc., but in such case - i'm not going to waste my time any longer.

I'm out. Happy Easter everyone (even though it just ended).

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Edit:



It just popped up out of nowhere when I was searching something using the "Search" option in the upper right corner.

====================

Edit 2:



This response only confirms, that sharing information in this thread, is a waste of my time.



Well, that's your point of view. A very polite one, by the way. Much more polite than my comments.

 

[Domen]

Artists and critics seldom seem get along very well I'm afraid. On the one hand you throw your time and energy into something that you are proud of and someone comes along and shreds it to pieces. OTOH you have a good point about the merrits of accuracy.

Ok, so maybe I was a bit too harsh.

Actually his 2nd version of this cavalryman is fine - but it rather looks like a Polish cavalryman from 1920 Polish-Soviet War:




Not a big deal - just rename the unit from "Polish uhlan 1939" to "Polish uhlan 1920" and it will be perfectly OK.

Often the result of artist's work is something different than he initially intended (like in this case, as it seems) - but it is also very good.

He wanted to make a cavalryman from 1939 - he made a very accurate one from 1920. Just compare the pictures above...

And when it comes to artistic aspects - I already wrote that his graphics is very beautiful.

 

[Plotinus]

Moderator Action: Everyone, keep the tone civil, please. Thanks.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Yang Liu]

Moderator Action: Provacative statements - along with material not appropriate to this thread and subforum - removed.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Yang Liu]

Moderator Action: Offensive content removed.

Pumping up your own ego by belittling others' contributions is offensive & inappropriate. So is posting in a deliberately provocative way - especially after an admin's public & general reminder to be civil
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[W.i.n.t.e.r]

@Domen. Just as an example: Remember all those images from the Napoleonic wars, the bearskins and the pretty white facings on the french uniforms and how common soldiers of the line will always be depicted carrying sabers along their equipment? Well - those were allso all but mere parade issue items. However, they make the particular unit unmistakeable -something which is actualy quite useful (not only at CivIII scale) and a commonly employed artitiscal freedom.

As far as the rest of the (now edited/deleted) comments are concerned I have to say that I have nothing to say. At least nothing that wouldn't get me into trouble. Must you jump into every puddle you see on the way only to complain about how it got your shoes muddy? Esp. when you already know whats comming for ya. Just enjoy Civ...

Moderator Action: warned for trolling and pdma
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Blue Monkey]

Moderator Action: It's time to end a discussion that will change nothing. The unit is made. It was released long ago. Take the arguments over historical accuracy to some OT thread. Drop the personal comments altogether.


The thread is closed.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889