Political Correctness and Civ VI

[DanQ]

While that's true... [and] I was appreciative of the panelists' conclusion[, I] felt a counter source could have been incorporated in the discussion and mentioned in the podcast summary for those who were just glancing. The current podcast summary only cites the negative source

I appreciate the thoughtful and detailed reply, MC. To make the show notes a clearer representation of the material covered in relation to the topic, I have updated them.

 

[Morningcalm]

I appreciate the thoughtful and detailed reply, MC. To make the show notes a clearer representation of the material covered in relation to the topic, I have updated them.

Many thanks DanQ! Keep up the good work. I don't always agree with the podcast's focus, but I appreciate it greatly, and I would be upset if you guys weren't around to podcast about Civ VI.

Also, for reference, the Reddit thread counterattacking critics of Seondeok is here: https://www.reddit.com/r/civ/comments/7i9jsx/seondeok_is_not_a_horrible_choice_a_koreans/

 

[Dachs]

Anyone who reads a history book on China can tell you that there is an entire roster of Emperors, Generals and Revolutionaries that can represent China better than Wu Zetian. She wasn't incompetent - far from it - but not a leader you will represent China with, there are other women they could have picked, like Dowager Cixi and her efforts to preserve Qing Empire from colonialism..

Cixi would certainly check the "incompetent" box that Wu does not.

 

[Pythakoreas]

Cixi would certainly check the "incompetent" box that Wu does not.

Some of Cixi's decisions were indeed questionable, and China lost more than one war to the West during that period. But she is far more iconic for China as she was the face of the imperial family during its encounters with the Western colonial powers and China's attempts at modernization. Much of it has to do with the fact that China itself was undergoing a dethroning from being a global superpower, and now that Rise and Fall introduced Dark Ages her ability could revolve around keeping her empire safe despite undergoing a crisis.

And of course, there is an entire roster of Emperors they could have picked, brilliant Generals who reunified China and Revolutionaries who ended some 2000 years of imperial rule and another who claimed to be a younger brother of Jesus. But for some reason that is probably lack of research, they go with Mao Zedong and Qin Shi Huang every time.

 

[Dachs]

Some of Cixi's decisions were indeed questionable, and China lost more than one war to the West during that period. But she is far more iconic for China as she was the face of the imperial family during its encounters with the Western colonial powers and China's attempts at modernization. Much of it has to do with the fact that China itself was undergoing a dethroning from being a global superpower, and now that Rise and Fall introduced Dark Ages her ability could revolve around keeping her empire safe despite undergoing a crisis.

And of course, there is an entire roster of Emperors they could have picked, brilliant Generals who reunified China and Revolutionaries who ended some 2000 years of imperial rule and another who claimed to be a younger brother of Jesus. But for some reason that is probably lack of research, they go with Mao Zedong and Qin Shi Huang every time.

Since she was largely unsuccessful in protecting the empire from foreign imperialism, and since the methods she employed were often astoundingly poor, and since her legacy was a constitution that neither she nor anybody else really wanted and that created a major precondition for the demise of the Qing empire, I don't think that "questionable" really covers it. Cixi wasn't the ogre of reformist propaganda, but apart from her ability to stay in power (admittedly no small achievement) she largely failed at everything she was trying to do. I think that "incompetent" is well warranted. Admittedly, "incompetent" hasn't exactly stopped Firaxis before. Perikles and Moctezuma II are in the game. But I think it's not unreasonable to have it as a mark against.

Besides, if "iconic" is a good reason, then what makes Qin Shi Huang and Mao such awful picks?

If Empress Myeongseong would be a controversial pick - something with which I don't necessarily disagree - I don't see why Hong Xiuquan wouldn't be. Hong's career was colorful and exciting but his primary achievement in Chinese history is connected to the deaths of millions of Chinese people. Surely there are more obvious strikes against him than against the likes of Wu Zetian.

 

[Pythakoreas]

Since she was largely unsuccessful in protecting the empire from foreign imperialism, and since the methods she employed were often astoundingly poor, and since her legacy was a constitution that neither she nor anybody else really wanted and that created a major precondition for the demise of the Qing empire, I don't think that "questionable" really covers it. Cixi wasn't the ogre of reformist propaganda, but apart from her ability to stay in power (admittedly no small achievement) she largely failed at everything she was trying to do. I think that "incompetent" is well warranted. Admittedly, "incompetent" hasn't exactly stopped Firaxis before. Perikles and Moctezuma II are in the game. But I think it's not unreasonable to have it as a mark against.

Besides, if "iconic" is a good reason, then what makes Qin Shi Huang and Mao such awful picks?

If Empress Myeongseong would be a controversial pick - something with which I don't necessarily disagree - I don't see why Hong Xiuquan wouldn't be. Hong's career was colorful and exciting but his primary achievement in Chinese history is connected to the deaths of millions of Chinese people. Surely there are more obvious strikes against him than against the likes of Wu Zetian.

For Korea, I would advise to just stay away from anything from Gojong/Myeongseong/Daewongun period, too much of a political material there. We might see an uproar on a national scale of Firaxis picks anyone from that period in Korean history.

For China, Dowager Cixi covers the period of Chinese history that has always been a big deal and even more so as China returns to its previous position as a global superpower. Much of the focus in China today is on reversing the humiliation it once faced in the 19th Century and returning to its formal glory. Although not always a positive icon, she is far more iconic for Wu Zetian regardless, for some as a symbol the Chinese imperial family standing its ground rooted in tradition, for some as a symbol of inability to modernize as much as Japan, etc. The Chinese resistance to Western colonialism itself tells a thousand tales, in which Dowager Cixi can embody as some Dark Age bonus. On the other hand, Wu Zetian just happened to be someone extremely competent, period.

I never said that Qin Shi Huang and Mao Zedong are "awful" picks, but if they're really looking for underdogs (as they did for Japan and France at least) they should do more research. China happens to be a country of exceptionally memorable leaders across history spanning five millennia.

The Taiping Rebellion was rejected by the West by theological disapproval but who knows, the real reason might have been again colonialism. Nevertheless, their ambitious project of creating a Heaven on Earth was what influenced a future generation of Chinese Communists who became influential enough to be a major player in the Cold War. On Gender Equality the Taiping had some radical views there too.

 

[Pythakoreas]

Admittedly, "incompetent" hasn't exactly stopped Firaxis before. Perikles and Moctezuma II are in the game. But I think it's not unreasonable to have it as a mark against.

How was Pericles incompetent? I just know him as someone who expanded Athenian democracy and a legendary orator. And as far as I know Montezuma in Civ5 was Montezuma I, not sure about Civ6 one. (Aztec is the only DLC I have so far btw)

 

[God of Kings]

And as far as I know Montezuma in Civ5 was Montezuma I, not sure about Civ6 one. (Aztec is the only DLC I have so far btw)

Montezuma I is also leading the Aztecs in Civ VI.

 

[Dachs]

For Korea, I would advise to just stay away from anything from Gojong/Myeongseong/Daewongun period, too much of a political material there. We might see an uproar on a national scale of Firaxis picks anyone from that period in Korean history.

For China, Dowager Cixi covers the period of Chinese history that has always been a big deal and even more so as China returns to its previous position as a global superpower. Much of the focus in China today is on reversing the humiliation it once faced in the 19th Century and returning to its formal glory. Although not always a positive icon, she is far more iconic for Wu Zetian regardless, for some as a symbol the Chinese imperial family standing its ground rooted in tradition, for some as a symbol of inability to modernize as much as Japan, etc. The Chinese resistance to Western colonialism itself tells a thousand tales, in which Dowager Cixi can embody as some Dark Age bonus. On the other hand, Wu Zetian just happened to be someone extremely competent, period.

I never said that Qin Shi Huang and Mao Zedong are "awful" picks, but if they're really looking for underdogs (as they did for Japan and France at least) they should do more research. China happens to be a country of exceptionally memorable leaders across history spanning five millennia.

The Taiping Rebellion was rejected by the West by theological disapproval but who knows, the real reason might have been again colonialism. Nevertheless, their ambitious project of creating a Heaven on Earth was what influenced a future generation of Chinese Communists who became influential enough to be a major player in the Cold War. On Gender Equality the Taiping had some radical views there too.

It's certainly possible to push Cixi based on the themes of her reign rather than her actual personality.

If revolutionaries are an option (as they apparently are, based on Gandhi), I think Song Qingling would be an interesting choice. Maybe that's too politically freighted and awkward for different reasons.

I think that the Taiping project occupies too awkward a place in both Chinese and Western historiography and memory to make for a particularly good or noncontroversial leaderhead. Maybe that's just me.

How was Pericles incompetent? I just know him as someone who expanded Athenian democracy and a legendary orator. And as far as I know Montezuma in Civ5 was Montezuma I, not sure about Civ6 one. (Aztec is the only DLC I have so far btw)

Perikles was a leader who chose to embark on one of the most destructive wars in classical history based on a fundamentally flawed appreciation of power politics. During the period when he was the most important man in Athens, the Athenian Empire's tax levy financed the construction of a large number of architecturally significant structures on the akropolis. That, and his oratory (of which we have few if any extant examples, sadly), were his claims to fame; his political leadership at a time of great disaster for his city is less remarked upon.

Perikles mostly got away with it because he was associated with the happy times before the war. He avoided responsibility for the disaster of the war partly because he died of plague shortly after the war broke out. The war's most well-known historian, Thoukydides, also happened to be one of Perikles' adherents, and wrote the history of the war largely to exonerate Perikles - and himself, and his other political allies - from charges of wrongdoing during the war. Surface impressions matter, and for most of Western history we have taught classical history using Thoukydides' text, in which Perikles comes off rather well.

Montezuma I is also leading the Aztecs in Civ VI.

If the Aztec leaderhead is Moctezuma I rather than Moctezuma II, I apologize for the error.

 

[orasis]

What would be a good list of politically incorrect, or at least truely controversial leaders?

You could start with 'Irene' of Byzantium. So bad. The mistakes(?) of her rule are still being felt today some 1300 years later...

 

[orasis]

Also since we're on the subject. Tomyris would not look the way she does in-game. She was part of the Massagetae... there is no way they looked like Southern Italians. Almost everyone in this game is pretty inaccurate ... because ... game.

(Similarly they apparently scheduled to meet with Tootoosis to discuss the Poundmaker controversy.)

Honestly?

Don't people have things to do anymore?

Omg it's true...

""It perpetuates this myth that First Nations had similar values that the colonial culture has, and that is one of conquering other peoples and accesing their land," he said. "That is totally not in concert with our traditional ways and world view.""

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Belly_River

Every civilization has been a bunch of liars and killers.

 

[Karpius]

""It perpetuates this myth that First Nations had similar values that the colonial culture has, and that is one of conquering other peoples and accesing their land," he said. "That is totally not in concert with our traditional ways and world view.""

I was unaware the Cree were a different species of humans.

 

[True_Candyman]

The subaltern movement has gone literally bonkers lately.

There’s some credit to be said for painting past European colonial powers with patronising other cultures, and painting them with a brush of inferiority.

Now we’ve reached a stage where poatcolonialism is the living and breathing culture of the metropolitan west, and yet subaltern cultures still paint the west with the brush of patronising coloniser.

Rejecting globalism to preserve cultural traditions is a fine choice if you wanna make it, but I don’t think culture or collective identity should have a right to trademark in commercial representation, so frankly I’d support their inclusion even if that “peace” guy wasn’t a loony living in the clouds

 

[Abraxis]

They still look outward to expand their interests at the expense of the vulnerable. Systemic oppression and even extermination of aboriginals still exists. Methods built around exploiting slavery, instead of altering to no longer be reliant on slaves, have instead just targeted new groups of vulnerable people to maintain their profitability.

I used to manage a business just outside Toronto in a place Called Niagara on the Lake. Beautiful area with vineyards, wineries, estates, and custom desinged mansions everywhere. Meanwhile every morning and every night pickup trucks filled with 15+ black people from the Caribbean are ferried from whatever basement they've been crammed into in order to work the fields for far below minimum wage.

I'm not sure I'm apprised of whatever has made you think these subaltern folk are going crazy. I think they have a very valid point of view.

 

[Karpius]

I used to manage a business just outside Toronto in a place Called Niagara on the Lake. Beautiful area with vineyards, wineries, estates, and custom desinged mansions everywhere. Meanwhile every morning and every night pickup trucks filled with 15+ black people from the Caribbean are ferried from whatever basement they've been crammed into in order to work the fields for far below minimum wage.

Before making any comment on that specific situation, i would first have to ask the following questions;

Is it forced labor?

Are the workers held as captives?

Are the employers breaking laws in regards to Canadian minimum wage?

 

[leif erikson]

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