Political Debate Thread!

[Bahmo]

It's not the ideas that are the issue. The issue is that for every second we delay progress, more suffering is caused by the uneducated or immoral. If we want to eliminate suffering entirely, we must educate and enlighten them. However, if we want to reduce suffering immediately, we must take action in the most decisive way possible.

What we ought to do is study to become good leaders. The vast majority of the people are not going to be uncomforatble enough for a revolution for a while. Once China and India grow to be such economic powerhouses that they no longer need US dollars to be rich, they'll probably boot out US companies. Then Americans will grow uncomfortable. If there is more war against a percieved axis of evil, and more counter-terrorist warfare in the innefective way Bush wages it, then there will eventually be a draft.

We'll need to wait until such events cause the people to grow angry, though. Simply forcing ideas on them when the man gives them a good life will make them think we're the bad guys.

 

[Dead Flag]

A forceful revolution has to be reasonably popular, otherwise there wouldn't be enough revolutionaries to actually carry it out in the first place.

However, I disagree that the best thing to do is wait. Look at how far it's gotten us so far. If we can predict a collapse then the authorities can prevent it. What we have to do is continuously agitate and educate while building up committees, collectives and associations with which to replace the old order with when the time comes.

 

[GarretSidzaka]

@Bahmo
You're right. I think things can get alot worse if the Status Quo continues along it's current path. And I especially think that if things get really bad, a bloody revolution would be a minor part, since the great majority and the middle class will be uprising. A nice, long, general strike would be nice

@Dead Flag
Please do not try any of these things you talk about. you sound like I did about 4 years ago when i first found out the extent of the hideous system and globalization and the ruling elite, you want to take it all down in rage. But this is incorrect and you need to further meditate on the lessons of history and the good that exists in man (not just the evil)
any actions by groups in the manner you talk about would leave you in a pool of blood, posthumously labeled a terrorist. Don't even think about going down those roads, when there are alternatives to dying like Che.

 

[Dead Flag]

Don't worry my friend, I shall take a different path.

I'm not going to waste my life on a foolish and impatient gesture. I'm not going to shed blood only to see the struggle collapse in self-contradiction. But neither will I stand idly by while innocent lives are lost. Neither while I meditate and reflect while the elite continue to deceive and brainwash the masses.

What I am going to do is achieve victory. It may take me ten, twenty or thirty years but I, personally, will not rest until I know that my existence has been justified by a measurable contribution to humanity. If this requires bloodshed, though I hope very dearly it does not, then what must be done, must be done.

Until the time comes when I must answer the call, I will be waiting. And in that time I will be studying. I will be learning. But most of all I will be laying the foundations for the next great era of mankind. To turn inwards is the greatest death for a revolutionary. To build communities is the greatest life.

 

[GarretSidzaka]

I never asked to to turn inwards to become insular. Quite the contrary, you should be spreading the ideas of a better way, and more importantly, be always attempting to pop the bubble of brainwashing that so many have like a wet blanket on their head.

But you should realize that bringing people out of the matrix of lies that most live in since childhood should be your primary goal. I only ask you look within and regard history so you do not unknowingly give out the wrong idea. You should constantly read books and constantly catalog the discrepancies of information we are bombarded with, as well as mentally document all the atrocities that are hidden as forbidden knowlage. Then you should mentally map out a method for telling people in a way that doesn't scare them off, and allows them to further open their own eyes to the world.

 

[Dead Flag]

I'm merely skeptical of the influence one radical or a group of radicals can have over a population that does carry around a bubble of brainwashing, as you said. In fact I'm not hopeful of the capability of the majority in the 'developed' world to contribute to the progression of society. I believe that the future lies within the poor countries which we exploit. However, how are they supposed to peacefully claim their share of the earth's resources?

 

[Bahmo]

I believe that the future lies within the poor countries which we exploit. However, how are they supposed to peacefully claim their share of the earth's resources?

They're not. Sadly, when people in poor countries react against foreign oppression, their justified anger is usually utilized by bad men such as Hitler and Osama for their evil cause. That is not to say, however, that better men couldn't organize and come along. If a bunch of people from around the world were to pool their funds out of generosity, they could raise enough to outbid bad men.

A concentration of benevolent people from America, China, and Europe, for example, could easily shell out enough money to completely solve the starvation and economic woes of less-developed countries. That would be the way to really build support internationally for a global liberation movement.

 

[GarretSidzaka]

Yes, i think that the future of the world will rest in the undeveloped countries.
this is primarly because they have the largest amounts of untapped resources, and large populations. there will be a point, IMO, when the developed world will be greatly overextended, and they will end up succumbing to the revolutionary might of the Third world. But this time will be far from now, and with globalisation doing it damnedest to crush those countries, coupled with probable orbital weapons platforms, it would be an extraordinarily difficult undertaking.

Please, dead_flag, use your knowledge to spread the 'virus of understanding' amongst the people you are around. When something worthy of an outright revolution happens, like a draft or nukes or mass starvation, at least there will be many people with the right idea before it starts. And as a person 'out of the matrix', the responsibility rests solely on your shoulders to spread this ideology.

 

[Partizanac]

I don't have the time to read every post you guys have wrote, but I think I get the picture, what are you guys talking about...

The USA is in Iraq and Afghanistan trying to set peace there and destroy all terrorist groups, if thats true, why is USA supporting Kosovos independence where there are many terrorist organizations and many drug routes go trough Kosovo... cause USA is in Iraq and Afghanistan because of the oil and gas, and by supporting the independence of Kosovo they are saying hey we don't hate Muslims... you see? we help them... and +Kosovo is in the Balkan near Russia, so they can manipulate it and use it for strategic blackmale!
All in all USA has become a big Bully who's days are numbered, cause Russia is weak no more, and China, India, do I need to say more?

 

[GarretSidzaka]

yeah, USA foreign policy is not consistent except for its self-serving nature. i really can't stand the fact that as US citizen, i have no control over what my county does or doesnt do or who we bomb or put sanctions against and kill babies, but as a citizenry we get all the contempt that the other nations hold against america. not fair, but then again neither is our foreign policy.

 

[Dead Flag]

It would be extremely unfair to blame Americans for the actions of their government. In the developed world, the wealthy purchase votes through the media and advertising. Therefore, no individual, or group of individuals, can change the situation while the majority continue to receive their instructions directly from Command HQ.

 

[Partizanac]

Well I think Americans deserve for being treated that way!
Because Americans are not interested in politics so they only here about it in TV and they believe every thing they see on it! In this part of the world people are very interested in politics we know everything thats going on! and when the ruling political party makes that many mistakes it ratings go from roof sky to 5-10% and they can disband the party cause the people will not vote for them any more... in the US there are always Republicans and Democrats you only see the candidate not being the same! but your not seeing the people that are coming to power with that man that is representing them
I just think that if the Americans got more involved in politics these things wouldn't happen!

For instance, if I was to ask an average American where Serbia is, he would say Africa or Asia... that says it all!

 

[GarretSidzaka]

yeah, but tell that to the people who hate all americans. you will find some in europe and canada even (as this is places i have been to)

i think it is bullshisse, and i wish there was some way for us to reverse this trend. unfortunately, with hilary 'the beeotch' clinton slated to be the next president, i foresee it only getting worse.

 

[GarretSidzaka]

Well I think Americans deserve for being treated that way!
Because Americans are not interested in politics so they only here about it in TV and they believe every thing they see on it! In this part of the world people are very interested in politics we know everything thats going on! and when the ruling political party makes that many mistakes it ratings go from roof sky to 5-10% and they can disband the party cause the people will not vote for them any more... in the US there are always Republicans and Democrats you only see the candidate not being the same! but your not seeing the people that are coming to power with that man that is representing them
I just think that if the Americans got more involved in politics these things wouldn't happen!

For instance, if I was to ask an average American where Serbia is, he would say Africa or Asia... that says it all!

well, i gaurantee that the people in this thread (for the most part) are not your average americans. that includes people who play my mod fervently too. but even though some americans have "Left the Matrix" and rejected the lie-trap we are raised in, we still get dissed by other countries, even though we (as a subgroup) are the only ones who really recognize what is going in america, and can see the world from a different point of view than the bullshisse media.

 

[Partizanac]

Yes I understand and respect that, but you have to realize you guys are a minority and you have to face the fact that people from around the world think that Americans are stupid... and this is going to happen until a revolution hits America like it did in Vietnam war

 

[GarretSidzaka]

Yes I understand and respect that, but you have to realize you guys are a minority and you have to face the fact that people from around the world think that Americans are stupid... and this is going to happen until a revolution hits America like it did in Vietnam war

I think you underestimate the power of the Evil American Propaganda system! I don't know when there will be a revolution (not sure the one to which you refer to) because people here are still too comfortable. And when there are massive peaceful protest about something, the gov't takes it seriously and only then perhaps curbs their behaviour (in the case of making felons out of undocumented immigrants).

I think that perhaps if drastic things happen here, there may be some kind of refusal to the powers-that-be, but I'm also afraid the Elite class would simply starve us off before we could do anything.

Edit: I don't like hippies aka yuppies

 

[Partizanac]

well, in the US as it is! I'm just waiting (not happily) for another sep. 11th
Your enemies list is just going higher and higher...

PS. I'm not talking about the people in America but about the government

 

[GarretSidzaka]

im hoping we don't have another 9/11. coz if it happens it will be because it is allowed to happen, and i dont want to watch more innocents die.

 

[Bahmo]

Edit: I don't like hippies aka yuppies

I dislike pacifism; however, the criticisms directed at America's military-industrial complex are very valid, even if the more-radical conspiracy theories aren't. The system of using private contacting to produce weapons has led to a number of immense problems. When profiteers get a chance to suck up American tax dollars, they can and will fund the election of politicians who will return the favor by spending more tax dollars on weapons, sometimes ineffective and unneeded. This wastes far too much money on things America's military does not really need; most of it is Soviet era stuff that is now not relevent to counter-terrorism, and it would be better for economy or infrastructure if left in the hands of the people or spent on such things as public transportation.

Furthermore, the use of so much money on bombs and other killing machines means that America has built an immense amount of hard-power at the expense of dwindling their soft-power. When there is a terrorist threat, all America has is lots of bombs to drop in the general area. What is being ignored is that these so-called terrorists are mostly civillians who are so fed-up that they will join and fight for anybody if they gave them food. That's what Osama and company do, and meanwhile, as our bombs kill more civillians; that just makes them hate us more. If we instead allocated our inflated military budget towards providing food to the starving people of the world, and building infrastructure, we could easily outbid Osama. However, this simple solution is going ignored due to the Military-Industrial-Complex's grip on politics. That is by far the biggest reason the USA is so hated in the world today.

 

[GarretSidzaka]

Yeah, and according to Chomsky, the US spends more on its Defense Budget than the rest of the entire world, combined.