Political Debate Thread!

[Norseman2]

You imagine brutaly suppressing state power in the situation we are today. It wouldn't drive us to Anarchy, but to chaos !! Effectively, some people would replace people in place (by other ways, ok). I think that an Anarchist Revolution is, at first, a "way of thinking" revolution. Freedom for all and for each one, does that noboby want to leave his freedom, and so, when people will have taste that, they will do everything to maintain it.
An anarchist society is an organised society (solidarity, federalism, etc). That's not, like I hear everywhere (and like you seems to think), a society where the big one would have all possibility to eat the small one (a free fox in a free henhouse...).
That's my definition of capitalism !

I'd like you to read a story from Iraq. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...0sep20,1,226790.story?coll=la-headlines-world

You'll need to use bugmenot.com or register with them to read it. Here's a brief quote from it:

BAGHDAD — On a recent Sunday, I was buying groceries in my beloved Amariya neighborhood in western Baghdad when I heard the sound of an AK-47 for about three seconds. It was close but not very close, so I continued shopping.

As I took a right turn on Munadhama Street, I saw a man lying on the ground in a small pool of blood. He wasn't dead.
...


No one did anything. No one lifted a finger. The only reaction came from a woman in the grocery store. In a low voice, she said, "My God, bless his soul."

I went home and didn't dare tell my wife. I did not want to frighten her.

This is the mentality that results when violent organizations take over, or in this case, haven't even taken over. Everyone is too afraid to stand up to them. Everyone looks out for their own neck, their own material gain and wellbeing, and doesn't stop for a moment to think about what they're doing to the planet, to their society, or to each other. People act like sheep. When guns get involved, everyone waits for someone else to do the right thing so that they don't have to risk their own lives. This is why there will always be people in power, and people who are subordinate to that power. Getting rid of one power source doesn't change this, it just means you get a new power source in its place. A week or a month of anarchy isn't going to enlighten anyone, and that's all the time it needed for gangs and mobs to start taking over and establishing new authorities that are far more oppressive.

Anarchy can only exist in a society where all, or at least 95% of the members would put what is moral before their own lives every single time. Right now, success in life is defined as accumulating a lot of fancy crap and living a long time. This style of thinking is considered normal, and even encouraged, and you can see what it has brought humanity. Millions of people starve to death daily while we buy thousand dollar security systems to protect all of our junk.

 

[Fabrysse]

Do you mean that Camarad George W and his US Revolutionary army leaded an anarchist revolution in Irak ?


You know, when people will be strong enough to kill capitalism AND create something else where they are free, I think they will also be strong enough to resist to other exploiters (this MK47, with Bible, or anything else...). If not, we will say that revolution aborted, and a new revolution will be to do !!

 

[ArneHD]

Personaly I'm more of a socialist, and I belive in induvidual freedom, within the framework of a strong government, perhaps it is a by-product of living in Norway. Anyway, a benign government is needed to enforce values, unless everybody confirms to the same values, in which case, enforcing them is not needed. But without the guiding hand of government, we will, considdering todays political spectrum and culture, fall appart.

Also, I see the internet as the greatest tool for the revolution that the world has ever seen.

 

[GarretSidzaka]

You imagine brutaly suppressing state power in the situation we are today. It wouldn't drive us to Anarchy, but to chaos !! Effectively, some people would replace people in place (by other ways, ok). I think that an Anarchist Revolution is, at first, a "way of thinking" revolution. Freedom for all and for each one, does that noboby want to leave his freedom, and so, when people will have taste that, they will do everything to maintain it.
An anarchist society is an organised society (solidarity, federalism, etc). That's not, like I hear everywhere (and like you seems to think), a society where the big one would have all possibility to eat the small one (a free fox in a free henhouse...).
That's my definition of capitalism !

FABRYSSE!!!! I LOVE IT! You have very eloquently put how the real revolution should be. The meta-revolution will be a revolution of freedom and choice, and a change of paradigm from the conventional to the anarchist mindset, focused on true freedom.

Your english is beautiful by the way.


@Norseman2
You do have a point, and it will take nearly 95% of the population for this to work. but when you look at the concentration of power consolidated to 1% of the population and the dissolution of the middle class, we might actually get there, if people take the time to educate themselves. The analogy of the dead iraqi and the ak-47's is not just iraq, it is my home town. the cops here shoot people first, then plant weapons on them later. and what is worse here, is that they are touted as insane criminals or tweakers after they are dead on the fukking evening news!!! @#$%@#$%@

@ArneHD
I have been to europe; it is a better place than america. when i was there in '99, cops didnt carry guns, just beat-down-sticks, which is alright by me (and makes me think them real men). and i had heard that if you were unemployed, you didnt starve.
but socialism and strong government can sometimes become a framework for facsism, just as capitalism is. That is why i believe the leftist slant of ideals of taking care of a populace and preserving freedoms of the socialist governments of europe should be preserved in "anarchism" with little or no actual governing.

whew

 

[prplhazed]

I'm left of center, but not super radical, so here il sorta lay out my positions before i start in on this debate:

On education (American): It doesnt work, im in highschool right now, and too many teachers are simply not good. There are too few requirments, and too few intelligent people willing to be teachers. People seem to take seriously the saying "those who cannot do, teach". I have a rather lengthy fantasy/vision for the future of education, but I'l type it up later if anyone is interested

On Violence: My main driving political force is pacifism. This is the area where I am most "radical" i guess, and why i can never participate in any sort of violent revolution. There are causes I will die for, but none I will kill for.

On Social Issues: Progress has been made, but there are still leaps and bounds to take before all people are equal in the eyes of the state, as they are in the eyes of God

On Government: I think the government should serve the people. I have problems with America's specific and current state of democracy, but i believe the majority should win and that democracy can and will work. If I am a minority, who am I to say I'm smart enough to decide the fate of everyone.

On Economy: I don't have entirely developed ideas on this yet, but I definitly support unions and such. Labor rights are important, and i dislike exploitive large companies

http://thesimpleway.org/shane/index.html
I read this guys book, and it is amazing. I would like to be able to live my life the way he outlines, and I am working on it, I highly recomend it.
Jesus is actually awesome, while many people are turned off by mainline christianity, Jesus is amazing


whew, didnt intend it to be that long...umm respond?

 

[GarretSidzaka]

On education (American): It doesnt work, im in highschool right now, and too many teachers are simply not good. There are too few requirments, and too few intelligent people willing to be teachers. People seem to take seriously the saying "those who cannot do, teach"...

yes. and these morons are put there on purpose, not because they can't get a real teacher in a classroom. they are there to teach lies and whitewashed bullsh!t history.

On Violence: My main driving political force is pacifism...There are causes I will die for, but none I will kill for.

no. Pacifism as Pathology. If you are a true pacifist, then you support the government with your useless death. You don't die for a cause, you live for it.

On Economy: I don't have entirely developed ideas on this yet, but I definitly support unions and such. Labor rights are important, and i dislike exploitive large companies

Start your search on economics with ideas like "True-cost Economics" and "Eco-Economics" (you can google or wiki those terms)

Jesus is actually awesome, while many people are turned off by mainline christianity, Jesus is amazing

I actually do like Jesus, despite my scathing critisisms of all of Christianity for all timeperiods, and my love for the works of Nietzsche. I think Jesus was murdered by his disciples, and had his good nature and message of ture evangelism raped by Paul and the spreaders of original Christianity.


Welcome to the Second Revolution subforums!!

 

[turquoiseninja]

I am a complete libertarian, I believe in complete freedom for people's personal choices as long as they don't harm others. The government has NO right to set moral values, and yet the government does it all the time in America! We are supposed to have something called "seperation of church and state", and yet I've never seen it. "In God we trust"?!!? "One nation under God"?!!? Let people exercise religous and moral freedom YOU FREAKIN' CHRISTIAN THEOCRATIC WARMONGERING CRUSADING FASCIST FEDS!!! /end rant (for now)

 

[prplhazed]

i somehow doubt the govnt has the resources/will to place bad teachers
my mom was a teacher for 10-12 years (then i came along ) and while i have no idea if i would have found her a good teacher, she is definitly competant and intelligent so probably

Pasifist but not passive
Im definitly not going to avoid conflict in an interest to continue being pacifistic, thats cowardly to hide behind false ideals
however i disagree with most revolutionary forces when they advocate violence
iv heard arguments for violence that the revolution doesnt have time to wait non-violently, however i think violent revolutions take as long and dont lay as firm a foundation for perpetuating whatever change was achieved

gandhi is my favorite philosopher/politcal guy/whatever
iv been meaning to read nietzche...gotta go get it off my dads shelf i guess

 

[GarretSidzaka]

definately read nietzsche! it is inspiriring and affirming. disregard hitlers love of nietzsche, he only took what he wanted from his books, and nietzsche would have killed himself to avoid hitler becommin enamoured with him (i only mention this as people will critisize nietzsche on the grounds of the Uber-Mench principle being related to hitler's aryan super race, and this was brought up at nuremburg)

"beyond good and evil" is excellent. and so is "human, all too human". i haven't finished "thus spoke zarathrustra" and cannot vouch for it, but his all time best work, in my opinion, is "The Antichrist"




edit: breathe, turquoiseninja, breathe!!

 

[Ferrum Rex]

i somehow doubt the govnt has the resources/will to place bad teachers
my mom was a teacher for 10-12 years (then i came along ) and while i have no idea if i would have found her a good teacher, she is definitly competant and intelligent so probably

You're it would be insanely conterproductive to everyones aims to place bad teachers. But if you create a bad system,good teachers are far less likely to arise. The Gov controls the situation,the rest of screwing up education is left to the schools themselves. At the top their like anything else, inept politicians,not great principles or superintendents,or whomever

 

[Drtad]

I believe in absolute Imperialism. (as long as I am the Emperor )

 

[GarretSidzaka]

You're it would be insanely conterproductive to everyones aims to place bad teachers. But if you create a bad system,good teachers are far less likely to arise. The Gov controls the situation,the rest of screwing up education is left to the schools themselves. At the top their like anything else, inept politicians,not great principles or superintendents,or whomever

yes! could it be coincedence that america is the lowest among all its peers (wester world) in education funding and students test scores??? An intelligent american populace might realize the crimes being commited in their names!! They might just stop cowing down and letting all this sh!t happen! They just might rise up.

 

[Drtad]

I agree with GarretSidzaka.

 

[GarretSidzaka]

I think idiocy and Neo-liberalism are a danger to all childeren. I'm glad there are a few teachers who have their heads on their shoulders. But to get a real education you usually have to pay (ie university). And the people who need it or could use it the most, cant afford it.

 

[Fabrysse]

About teachers :
If I understand what you say, I think that the problem is that persons who would be the best teachers go working and searching in firms. In a firm they are better payed than in a school... That's it in France too. The solution that the syndicalist I am purpose is simple : best pay for teachers, and you'll have the better !

About violence :
I agree with you, prplhazed. I violently fight for pacifism !
Seriously : I want a revolution as pacifist as it can be. But I'm afraid (i'm sure really), that the Boss of big firms, the presidents of states, deputies, and such people having power, won't agree to abandon their power to the people. So, as pacifist as we can be, we'll have to explain them a little more loudly, and a little more, and a little more... And at final, we'll have to put them out with violence.
And to say exactly what I think : we won't be able to explain anything because capitalists (boss and government allied as usual) will send us police and army, and it won't be the time to discuss. The only solution we'll have is to fight them. After that, it'll be time to talk about pacifism, and it'll be important to do it.

 

[GarretSidzaka]

yes, i dont advocate murder and pillaging, what im trying to say is that i would rather live for a cause than to become a statistic, or a "dead terrorist" as they will name any who oppose them

 

[Fabrysse]

I agree with you. A "martyr" (does it exists in english ?) is at first a dead activist. You're right.

 

[Drtad]

I love rebellions. Sounds like fun.

 

[turquoiseninja]

I love rebellions. Sounds like fun.

Ummm....so are you an emperor or a rebel

I think it is pretty much impossible to win a revolution with pure pascifism. I definately want to be always persuading people with speeches and books and stuff, (Like Subcommander Marcos/Delegate Zero) but in the end the revolutionaries have to start assinating and rioting to get their way. Sitting there won't make the President just agree to you demands.

 

[GarretSidzaka]

I think the only place pascificism will make a great impact would have to be a passive-aggressive general strike, where entire cities' populations stop working and stay at home. this would be the best blow pascifism could deal