Political Philosophy discussion

[raxo2222]

This whole thread is detached from reality....seriously detached...

Thank billionaires, and their supporters, who made them all powerful

Culture stuff - abortion, euthanasia, LGBT, racism/sexism/other discrimination, migrants are all intentionally politicized wedge issues.
Same with select science/technology stuff like climate change, nuclear power, vaccines, GMO.

All for some billionaire to get 5% bigger wealth next year instead of 2% bigger wealth.

There are some popular science things like Scientific American.
Everything here is true.

 

[BlueTemplar]

Yeah, it misses some classic gems like 9/11

That's what "Jet Fuel doesn't melt steel" is about, though 9/11 is of course much more than that... lack of space in the graphic, or difficulty to place it ?

And really, it would have benefitted from more vagueness over the positions... unless that graphic is specifically *designed* to start flamewars ?

And some of them are just too vague anyway : for instance "Deep State" can mean anything from whatever QAnon think about that to a much milder "The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy."

 

[raxo2222]

That's what "Jet Fuel doesn't melt steel" is about, though 9/11 is of course much more than that... lack of space in the graphic, or difficulty to place it ?

And really, it would have benefitted from more vagueness over the positions... unless that graphic is specifically *designed* to start flamewars ?

And some of them are just too vague anyway : for instance "Deep State" can mean anything from whatever QAnon think about that to a much milder "The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy."

Yeah, I'm not sure why they didn't place 9/11 conspiracy memes at some place.
I treated this pic as more of meme with bunch of random conspiracy theories lol.

 

[BlueTemplar]

In case there's a misunderstanding : "Jet Fuel doesn't melt steel" *is* on the pic.

 

[Thunderbrd]

unless that graphic is specifically *designed* to start flamewars ?

Obviously. Few people don't seriously think there's NO conspiracies and the media can be completely trusted. But everyone thinks they're right when it comes to what they think IS and is NOT a valid theory.

 

[raxo2222]

Obviously. Few people don't seriously think there's NO conspiracies and the media can be completely trusted. But everyone thinks they're right when it comes to what they think IS and is NOT a valid theory.

Yeah, conspiracy of billionaires slowly eradicating middle class, worker rights, human rights and democracy all around world over long time seems like return to 17th - 19th century - mix of reactionary ultra-capitalism.
Problem is where conspiracy theorists blame wrong people, and thus being even worse - that is return to Medieval era.

Globally world is improving, but not as fast as it could improve.
https://ourworldindata.org/global-economic-inequality-introduction
https://ourworldindata.org/democratic-rights
https://sdg-tracker.org/

World GDP would have to increase 5x more if it meant Denmark quality of live and Denmark level of income inequality.
https://ourworldindata.org/poverty-minimum-growth-needed
More realistic (with higher inequality) probably it would take 10x - 50x GDP change.

 

[raxo2222]

Heh funny thing happened in 1970's - American middle class was sacrificed so global middle class can rise: https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/
This may be related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970s_energy_crisis

As for poking nose in other countries: USA has long tradition of it

 

[Pepo]

Yeah, conspiracy of billionaires slowly eradicating middle class, worker rights, human rights and democracy all around world over long time seems like return to 17th - 19th century - mix of reactionary ultra-capitalism.
Problem is where conspiracy theorists blame wrong people, and thus being even worse - that is return to Medieval era.

Globally world is improving, but not as fast as it could improve.
https://ourworldindata.org/global-economic-inequality-introduction
https://ourworldindata.org/democratic-rights
https://sdg-tracker.org/

World GDP would have to increase 5x more if it meant Denmark quality of live and Denmark level of income inequality.
https://ourworldindata.org/poverty-minimum-growth-needed
More realistic (with higher inequality) probably it would take 10x - 50x GDP change.

I was going to reply to your horse shoe theory on the previous page but I think this is much more interesting to discuss. Global well bein can be said to have improved in the last decades with some important things to be aware of. First of, China is a huge disturbing force in that much of the improvement in Gdp per capita can be located in this country. Excluding China the normal indicators use for this estimations are much more moderate, and some regions like latin america or sub-saharan Africa have seen little improvements for the average family overall. Wealth distribution has also been getting worse globally, and in specific for the "western world", general ownership be it of property or of other goods has become more unequal, with less people owning more. There is little surprise to be found in the challenging of the liberal world order by "populist" (I hate this word ) forces because the perceived state of things seem to be going worse for the middle-lower classes. Finally, democratic rigths indicator is, in my opinion, an ideological fueled estimation that should be discarded, as in itself it fails to capture the well being of the people under any regime. Plus "democracy" as we currently understand is an oligarchy with popular support : capitalism and the top of the societal hierarchy fear it too much to allow it to happen.

 

[BlueTemplar]

Heh funny thing happened in 1970's - American middle class was sacrificed so global middle class can rise: https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/
This may be related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970s_energy_crisis

As for poking nose in other countries: USA has long tradition of it

Why "American" ? It was pretty much a worldwide crisis AFAIK ?

And driven by geology, so not as much as "sacrificed", as "let's waste our natural resources on ostentatious consumption - oops, they're gone !"

(So looks like that the mere existence of a powerful middle class is an historical aberration, though things *might* perhaps have been different if we hadn't been so incredibly wasteful..?)

 

[BlueTemplar]

"populist" (I hate this word )

Populism has an interesting history :
https://harpers.org/archive/2020/05/how-the-anti-populists-stopped-bernie-sanders/
(Used to be *pro* globalism / international trade !)

 

[Pepo]

Populism has an interesting history :
https://harpers.org/archive/2020/05/how-the-anti-populists-stopped-bernie-sanders/
(Used to be *pro* globalism / international trade !)

Spot on. I wouldn't say they were pro globalism as they rejected the gold standard but what it is implied in the article is exactly why I dislike the word. If for the establishment it is dangerous for common folk to decide politics; how they can justify then that their governments are democratic? Populist as today is a word use to insult the enemies of the political establishment, regardless of where these enemies stand in the political spectrum.

 

[raxo2222]

Mandatory pampering > Democracy and liberty lol

 

[Thunderbrd]

Mandatory pampering > Democracy and liberty lol

There ARE US citizens that get to feeling this way about even our own jails/prisons - 3 hots and a cot they say... for some, it's worth not having all the stress of having to compete in the realworld. Mind you, your hobby selection is certainly limited. As is your food selection.

 

[raxo2222]

There ARE US citizens that get to feeling this way about even our own jails/prisons - 3 hots and a cot they say... for some, it's worth not having all the stress of having to compete in the realworld. Mind you, your hobby selection is certainly limited. As is your food selection.

I bet we would have Mars bases if entire world was like Nordics or at least Western Europe, Japan, Australia and Canada.
That is rising tide lifts all boats.

Now research is like oil companies during peak oil - resources are scarce.
That is green social democracy is a way to ensure eternal technological advancement
Now on current trajectory it seems like AI would have to takeover humanity to ensure continued technological advancement.

 

[Yudishtira]

I bet we would have Mars bases if entire world was like Nordics or at least Western Europe, Japan, Australia and Canada.
That is rising tide lifts all boats.

Now research is like oil companies during peak oil - resources are scarce.
That is green social democracy is a way to ensure eternal technological advancement
Now on current trajectory it seems like AI would have to takeover humanity to ensure continued technological advancement.

UK (the worst), France, Canada and Australia are in a worse mess than even the US right now. Progressives are at least visible in the US.

The problem globally is politicians owned by kleptocrat individuals and corporations. The solution is not "the right party" or "a representative spread of parties", when all those parties have their candidates selected by kleptocrats. Sweden's situation sounds as bad as the others at present. Your take is so simplistic, yet you persist with it over and over again.

Re technological advancement, again it is positively obstructed by corporatocracy. We had electric milk delivery floats in the UK in the 60s. Sixty years later, electric cars are still struggling to be considered mainstream.

As for Mars bases, I don't agree that they would be an advancement, not until we can get there in days rather than months.

 

[raxo2222]

UK (the worst), France, Canada and Australia are in a worse mess than even the US right now. Progressives are at least visible in the US.

The problem globally is politicians owned by kleptocrat individuals and corporations. The solution is not "the right party" or "a representative spread of parties", when all those parties have their candidates selected by kleptocrats. Sweden's situation sounds as bad as the others at present. Your take is so simplistic, yet you persist with it over and over again.

Re technological advancement, again it is positively obstructed by corporatocracy. We had electric milk delivery floats in the UK in the 60s. Sixty years later, electric cars are still struggling to be considered mainstream.

As for Mars bases, I don't agree that they would be an advancement, not until we can get there in days rather than months.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare
Some Americans think that countries I mentioned are socialist or communist.... so extremists gonna be extremist.
So even if those countries are in decline, they still are best.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_inequality-adjusted_Human_Development_Index
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Fragile_States_Index
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Competitiveness_Report
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_research_and_development_spending
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_social_welfare_spending
Of course still there are problems. Then there are libertarians and anarchocapitalists, who think that countries aren't capitalist enough.

As for technological progress some stuff should be nationalized/government funded, especially if things aren't profitable.
Education and healthcare also should be mostly nationalized and government funded.
As for other sectors it depends if bad monopolies are possible.

 

[tmv]

Then there are libertarians and anarchocapitalists, who think that countries aren't capitalist enough.

I don't know whom you are talking about.

On a completely unrelated note (and for completeness' sake), for these people (that I have certainly never heard about) this would be an interesting index: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom

 

[Thunderbrd]

Freedom is a funny word. True freedom pretty much amounts to absolute anarchy which also amounts to the freedom to exploit others to no end with the power you were able to obtain. So sometimes, this kind of freedom is not exactly desirable. As with everything, it's always a balancing act in so many ways and nobody will agree on where the balance is just right because they are all going to look at it from their personal perspectives, fears and concerns, hopes and dreams, and the realities of their existing struggles. Obviously everyone is impacted by policies differently and every policy is a double edged sword. But it still can't be simplified to an all or nothing, total freedom or total protection or total control approach or we pretty much all fall down to the same thing, too much centralized power and/or wealth being wielded somewhere to eliminate the possibility of competition, as monopoly is the natural gravitation.

Playing with Civ IV is the most illuminating experience I've had with this - the steamroll effect is absolutely what happens in the economy, particularly for the winning oligarchs.

 

[raxo2222]

I don't know whom you are talking about.

On a completely unrelated note (and for completeness' sake), for these people (that I have certainly never heard about) this would be an interesting index: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom

@DC0 for example
He was much more extreme compared to you.
Also all sorts of extremists are religious or spiritual. Just curious
They all want to give all power to state or church or corporations, while stuff should be balanced.

 

[Maltazard]

Expectations are set in the culture we experience and live in. Oddly enough, in the current mass culture there is a constant pandering of wealth by rich and privileged people on all media, and of course especially social media. This matters because when a cultural system sets an expectation but then doesn't provide the means to reach that expectation, and in truth it turns out social progression is almost nonexistant and for the most part not at all merit based, there's going to be a growing sentiment of frustration towards that system and those at the top. It's different from the old class struggle of course, no one in the west is being exploited 14 hours in a factory, though you might have a highly educated person locked in an unfulfilling job that doesn't allow them to set up a family while a gangbusting rap artist makes millions on fake album sales. No one likes that. There's only so much fairness can be abused. To be fair I'm amazed it's still holding up with all that's been going on recently. IE essential workers being for the most part on the poverty line. I guess in the US you did get some helicopter money so that must've relieved some pressure. In EU we got fudgall as usual.
However this is very basic social science so the fact that this phenomena is emphasized and incentivized by the elites is possibly yet another sign or hint that they WANT to provoke some form of collapse of social values and order.
What I can't figure out for the love of everything is why the US don't just go and nuke China and call it a day. They so very clearly act as if that is the unavoidable outcome of the future, and yet they're dragging this along so dramatically. Constantly trying to bring the conflict back to europe, MENA, SEA regions to divert attention. Even Kazhakstan now of all places got in the spotlight. These people are not held back by moral values so there's something else that they're waiting for before they let it all unfold and I can't find any reasonable explanation outside of conspiracy theories.