pre-release info New First Look: Himiko

[Siptah]

If we're going to get a semi-mythological, poorly-attested Japanese leader with no ties to the eras of their history we know the most about, then I am very glad that she mechanically functions as leaders from the familiar eras. We Edo and Meiji leaders here in spirit!

I think the most important thing in such a case is that she is fun to play as/against. And it looks to me that the devs succeeded in this. I‘m quite happy with how this turned out. She’s also the only leader in 7 that I didn‘t know before, so I‘m happy to learn about her.

 

[gdr_willter]

If we're going to get a semi-mythological, poorly-attested Japanese leader with no ties to the eras of their history we know the most about, then I am very glad that she mechanically functions as leaders from the familiar eras. We Edo and Meiji leaders here in spirit!

She is a historical person that recorded and attested, just removed from the record of her own country Japan because of the ancient political issue. She wasn't a member of the Emperor's family, but she need to be.
Nearly no historian in Japan deny her exsistence. They only argue about the historical form of her reign and the way she vanished from the record.

 

[RedCourtJester]

At minimum I am betting that Himiko's "Queen of Wa" and "Yamatai" descriptions soft deconfirm a Yamatai/Wa antiquity Japan. In the same sense that they tend to use "polities that didn't make the official roster" as leader/unit descriptors (ala Xerxes the Achaemenid or Amina Warrior Queen of Zazzau).

Personally I think this suggests that they will push an antiquity Japanese civ back to Kofun or Yayoi (and if Yayoi, at that point they could just pivot to the Jin states since there is stronger evidence of a peninsular origin than the reverse), but it doesn't rule out Heian/Nara/Asuka periods either (even though imo those are too late to be satisfying start points for that region).

If we're going to get a semi-mythological, poorly-attested Japanese leader with no ties to the eras of their history we know the most about, then I am very glad that she mechanically functions as leaders from the familiar eras. We Edo and Meiji leaders here in spirit!

This, ironically, is also something which suggests to me that the antiquity Japanese civ is in fact older than Wa/Yamatai, and possibly even more of a hybrid proto-Japonic/proto-Koreonic civ. Because instead of being an arbitrary mythological figure, Himiko's time placement would now serve as some necessary conceptual glue to connect the antiquity civ to feudal Japan.

 

[Evie]

I don't buy the Kofun/Yayoi civ for Japan a second when some much better documented (and much more interesting for Japan) eras, ie, Heian, are right there. There's nothing wrong with not starting as an archaeological culture.

 

[AriochIV]

She is a historical person that recorded and attested, just removed from the record of her own country Japan because of the ancient political issue. She wasn't a member of the Emperor's family, but she need to be.
Nearly no historian in Japan deny her exsistence. They only argue about the historical form of her reign and the way she vanished from the record.

Even figures like Gilgamesh and King Arthur and Robin Hood were presumably based on real people (or an amalgam of real people), but what we know about them is still only semi-historical. It's a long leap of logic to say that she was based on a real person, therefore the accounts written about her long after she had passed out of living memory must be accurate. It's also a long leap of logic to say that there are no contemporary accounts of her, therefore there must have been accounts that were somehow removed from the record.

"Semi-historical" and "poorly attested" seem to be extremely accurate descriptions of what we know about Himiko.

 

[RedCourtJester]

I don't buy the Kofun/Yayoi civ for Japan a second when some much better documented (and much more interesting for Japan) eras, ie, Heian, are right there.

Also totally possible, although not feeling very "antiquated" when juxtaposed against Han China, not to mention really doesn't serve as a great "origination" point for Japan as a whole when the history extends back so much farther.

It really depends how the devs are viewing Japan/Korea and if they want to devote two whole antiquity civs to that region. We still don't really know yet what scale they want to build the map out to. But I think it would be a bit presumptuous to think that both Korea and Japan will get antiquity civs at this point, too early to tell.

 

[Zaarin]

although not feeling very "antiquated" when juxtaposed against Han China

It feels quite antiquated compared to the Mississippians or Khmer. The devs themselves have said they're not operating on an absolute chronology.

Japan as a whole when the history extends back so much farther.

Prehistory extends further, certainly, but history doesn't extend much further. They could go with Nara or Asuka, but Heian is better attested.

It really depends how the devs are viewing Japan/Korea and if they want to devote two whole antiquity civs to that region. We still don't really know yet what scale they want to build the map out to. But I think it would be a bit presumptuous to think that both Korea and Japan will get antiquity civs at this point, too early to tell.

I don't think "building civ chains" is a high priority for the devs. They did for China and kind of India if you squint, but I don't think connections or building three-age civs are a high priority for them (again, per their own statements on how civs are selected).

 

[AriochIV]

I don't think "building civ chains" is a high priority for the devs. They did for China and kind of India if you squint, but I don't think connections or building three-age civs are a high priority for them (again, per their own statements on how civs are selected).

Yes, I think the speculators are having a difficult time wrapping their heads around this. Firaxis didn't implement civ-switching so that they could fall back on giving each nation three connected Age-specific civilizations.

 

[Evie]

True, although one does have to imagine that they probably are wary of any possible "Japan unlocking Korea" or "Korea unlocking Japan" that might arise if they don't make sure to give both sides fairly complete paths.

 

[Zaarin]

True, although one does have to imagine that they probably are wary of any possible "Japan unlocking Korea" or "Korea unlocking Japan" that might arise if they don't make sure to give both sides fairly complete paths.

There was a time I thought the same, but I'm no longer so certain. Especially since even if we got, for example, both Silla and Heian in Antiquity, almost certainly both would also unlock Goryeo and Edo Japan (as speculative names) simply as regional unlocks in Exploration.

 

[PorkBean]

I really like Queen Himiko's design. Everything we know about her comes from foreign records of trade and tribute, so it makes a lot of sense to give her a diplomatic angle.

Less keen on Shaman Himiko, but I usually squirm at designs with maluses anyway. More than that, though, the LA "Miko of Amaterasu" puzzles me a little - "Himiko" is etymologically unrelated to the later Shinto "Miko", and Amaterasu first appears in writing more than 400 years after the end of the Yayoi period. The only connection between the two I can think of are attempts to conflate Himiko with Yamatohime-no-mikoto, the daughter of the legendary Emperor Suinin, who founded Ise Shrine to Amaterasu in the 1st century according to the Kojiki - though this is almost certainly mythological. There's no evidence (that I know of) to suggest Himiko or anyone in the Yayoi period would have worshipped Amaterasu in any recognizable sense.

 

[Leucarum]

Yes, I think the speculators are having a difficult time wrapping their heads around this. Firaxis didn't implement civ-switching so that they could fall back on giving each nation three connected Age-specific civilizations.

Some of it is definitely wish fulfillment, but I understand it. A lot of people want to play X or Y specific culture group, and with so few civs per age, very few links feel satisfying. It's why I'm a little against "historic" unlocks, the official routes feel forced, and their existence makes people feel like there shohld be historic chains.

 

[gdr_willter]

Even figures like Gilgamesh and King Arthur and Robin Hood were presumably based on real people (or an amalgam of real people), but what we know about them is still only semi-historical. It's a long leap of logic to say that she was based on a real person, therefore the accounts written about her long after she had passed out of living memory must be accurate. It's also a long leap of logic to say that there are no contemporary accounts of her, therefore there must have been accounts that were somehow removed from the record.

"Semi-historical" and "poorly attested" seem to be extremely accurate descriptions of what we know about Himiko.

It's inaccurate, are you belive Cao Rui is poorly attested, semi-historical figure like them? No one negate the historical value of Book of Wei, Records of the Three Kingdoms as the probative evidence. Especially for the official actions of Emperors on administrations and diplomatics. You really belive the Chinese historians created a semi-fictional Japanese queen, and even invented her appointment which was the most important diplomatic factor in ancient East Asia? No way.

Her existence and historical footprints become more clear when she was also found in the Korean records. You can find her from Silla's Record (Silla Bongi), Histories of Three Kingdoms of Korea. She tributed also to King Adala of Silla, so historians recorded it. They even referred the contents of the Book of Wei to describe who she is.

You're underestimating the power of cross checked records in the study on the ancient East Asian histories. Yes, the doubtable Kojiki and Nihon shoki which don't tell about her are also one of the sources to track the historical facts. However, because of their consistency and cross-validation, the official records of China and Korea are significantly more reliable than those Japanese records. That's why even Japanese historians also believe there was the Queen Himiko based on those records. The point is not her existence. The reason why she vanished and the trace she left are the points that historians are working on.

 

[RedCourtJester]

It feels quite antiquated compared to the Mississippians or Khmer. The devs themselves have said they're not operating on an absolute chronology.


Prehistory extends further, certainly, but history doesn't extend much further. They could go with Nara or Asuka, but Heian is better attested.


I don't think "building civ chains" is a high priority for the devs. They did for China and kind of India if you squint, but I don't think connections or building three-age civs are a high priority for them (again, per their own statements on how civs are selected).

And yet we got India and China "paths," as well as an inordinate amount of "French" and "German" content despite nothing Frankish, as well as pretty clear indicators of a decent Rome -> Norman -> England path with very likely something Norse planned at some point.

I'm not convinced they aren't yet. I think there are plenty of players who like a sense of order and continuity that they want to cater to, at least to some extent. I think the two DLC packs will confirm either way if they are adding things randomly or if the aim is to give players some reasonably plausible civ paths.

That I think stands regardless of whether they go with Heian/Nara/Asuka or something earlier. Either way everyone--even most people arguing one way or another on this issue--are tacitly admitting that they expect Japan to have a full three-act structure at some point. The only thing we are undecided on is what that first act will be.

 

[Evie]

There was a time I thought the same, but I'm no longer so certain. Especially since even if we got, for example, both Silla and Heian in Antiquity, almost certainly both would also unlock Goryeo and Edo Japan (as speculative names) simply as regional unlocks in Exploration.

Mutual unlock are probably fated to happen, yes.

But the mutual part is important here. If they both unlock each other, then they almost certainly also have unlock thrir next age self which will help mollify people a lot. It's the implication that one is the successor of thenother I think they'll still want to avoid.

 

[Black Gate]

Also totally possible, although not feeling very "antiquated" when juxtaposed against Han China, not to mention really doesn't serve as a great "origination" point for Japan as a whole when the history extends back so much farther.

Maurya wasn't the first dynasty of the Magadha Empire, which was far from the only great empire in antiquity either. It got picked because it was a great Indian empire that we have lots of information on - which is also why Ashoka got his two personas, because that change in personality is well documented. With the Asuka/Nara/Heian periods, I could tell you of the grief Fujiwara no Tadanobu felt at the passing of a family member, or the specific sutras Kukai promoted and why (although most specific religious talk tends to go over my head). It's hard to say much about the Kofun or Yayoi periods without getting into the partially mythologised histories presented in the Kojiki or Nihon Shoki. Aesthetically I'd prefer something like Kofukuji as a wonder for antiquity Japan than the Mozu Tombs, as impressive as Emperor Nintoku's tomb is.

Yes, I think the speculators are having a difficult time wrapping their heads around this. Firaxis didn't implement civ-switching so that they could fall back on giving each nation three connected Age-specific civilizations.

If you're picking out interesting points of history, and have a personal upper limit of civs set at say, 80, I think the concept of a well-connected path just naturally appears. Of course some people are micro-analysing history and demanding an England for every Henry, but I think the statement "we will have many three-age civilisations" is inevitable if the game keeps getting content for the better part of a decade.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

It's inaccurate, are you belive Cao Rui is poorly attested, semi-historical figure like them? No one negate the historical value of Book of Wei, Records of the Three Kingdoms as the probative evidence. Especially for the official actions of Emperors on administrations and diplomatics. You really belive the Chinese historians created a semi-fictional Japanese queen, and even invented her appointment which was the most important diplomatic factor in ancient East Asia? No way.

Her existence and historical footprints become more clear when she was also found in the Korean records. You can find her from Silla's Record (Silla Bongi), Histories of Three Kingdoms of Korea. She tributed also to King Adala of Silla, so historians recorded it. They even referred the contents of the Book of Wei to describe who she is.

You're underestimating the power of cross checked records in the study on the ancient East Asian histories. Yes, the doubtable Kojiki and Nihon shoki which don't tell about her are also one of the sources to track the historical facts. However, because of their consistency and cross-validation, the official records of China and Korea are significantly more reliable than those Japanese records. That's why even Japanese historians also believe there was the Queen Himiko based on those records. The point is not her existence. The reason why she vanished and the trace she left are the points that historians are working on.

You're pretty much making his point for him. We may know she existed, but historians know next to nothing about her. You say so yourself. If I write a story about, or assign a personality, like Firaxis has done, to a person that we know existed, but know nothing about, I don't know how you could describe that character as anything but semi-historical and poorly attested. It's not a slur, it's a factual assessment.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Introducing Himiko, including her High Shaman persona!​

Himiko, Queen of Wa (Base Game) ​

The queen of Yamatai, an early Japanese state, Himiko used her political wiles and, according to legend, shamanic charisma to bring (Japan/the land/her people) under her sway. Her political prowess was recognized by the Chinese kingdom of Cao Wei, who dubbed her a "friend of Wei." Her authority has echoed in Japanese folk history for over a thousand years.

Agenda:
Yamatai: Decrease Relationship by a Small Amount per Settlement with constructed Culture and Happiness Buildings. Increase Relationship by a Small Amount per Settlement with constructed Science and Gold Buildings.

Starting Biases:
None

Attributes:
Diplomatic
Scientific

Unique Ability:
Friend of Wei: Gain a Unique Endeavor called 'Friend of Wei' that can be performed in an Alliance to grant you and your ally increased Science. Can support Endeavors for free. Adds Science per Age for every leader you're Friendly or Helpful with.

Himiko, High Shaman (DLC Persona)​

The queen of Yamatai, an early Japanese state, Himiko used her political and religious authority as, possibly, a shaman of the sun-goddess Amaterasu to rule. Other accounts claim she had enthralled her subjects by magic. Whatever the truth behind Himiko's legend, her charisma was a powerful force, and resonates until the present day.

Agenda:
Shaman Queen: Decrease Relationship by a Small Amount per Settlement with constructed Science and Gold Buildings. Increase Relationship by a Small Amount per Settlement with Culture and Happiness Buildings.

Starting Biases:
None

Attributes:
Cultural
Diplomatic

Unique Ability:
Miko of Amaterasu: Increased Happiness per Age on Happiness Buildings. Increased Production towards constructing Happiness Buildings. Gain increased Culture but slightly reduced Science, with increased effects during a Celebration.


Game Guide here: https://civilization.2k.com/civ-vii/game-guide/leaders/himiko/

1. No 'Head to toe' long hair like female characters frequently shows up in Leiji Matsumoto's manga

Himiko

Himiko or Pimiko (卑弥呼, d. ca. 248) was an obscure shaman queen of Yamataikoku in ancient Wa (Japan). Her existence however, much like her kingdom is strongly debated on whether or not it had existed. Within the works of Leiji Matsumoto, Himiko's name comes up a few times as reference material...

tokinowa.fandom.com

1. But playthrough shows her that she began as Missisipian.
2. I don't see Yamatai as Age I Japan either. this could be because its history was very vague particularly military and culture. beyond Haniwa cemetry

Haniwa: Death-Cult Pottery with Personality

At around 300AD Japan saw an explosion in the production of pottery. The Jomon people put lots of character into their pieces.

digventures.com

^ The best example. including what could be a potential UU (Sakimori or Bushi)

 

[Krikkit1]

Mutual unlock are probably fated to happen, yes.

But the mutual part is important here. If they both unlock each other, then they almost certainly also have unlock thrir next age self which will help mollify people a lot. It's the implication that one is the successor of thenother I think they'll still want to avoid.

That’s why I think those civs would be introduced from the Modern back.. ie Modern civ first, then Exploration, then Antiquity.

 

[Archanist]

That’s why I think those civs would be introduced from the Modern back.. ie Modern civ first, then Exploration, then Antiquity.

The more players go through the Modern Age Cultural legacy for the civ the faster we'll unlock the the Exploration and Antiquity versions I suppose :^)