pre-release info New First Look: Himiko

[gdr_willter]

You're pretty much making his point for him. We may know she existed, but historians know next to nothing about her. You say so yourself. If I write a story about, or assign a personality, like Firaxis has done, to a person that we know existed, but know nothing about, I don't know how you could describe that character as anything but semi-historical and poorly attested. It's not a slur, it's a factual assessment.

Hey, it's such a different point. He said she is like Robin Hood who only has story but no evidence, and I'm saying that's wrong. And historians know something about her based on the written Wa and Yamatai history. Just I skipped it because I mentioned it before. She ruled 29 small countries, and tried to subjugate one left country from the diplomatic approval. Even we know there was an eclipse when she died, and it deified her and forced to Yamatai politicians throne Queen Toyo as the successor of her. Quite a detailed and neutral knowledge about the ancient leader before the centralized authority.

 

[8housesofelixir]

You're pretty much making his point for him. We may know she existed, but historians know next to nothing about her. You say so yourself. If I write a story about, or assign a personality, like Firaxis has done, to a person that we know existed, but know nothing about, I don't know how you could describe that character as anything but semi-historical and poorly attested. It's not a slur, it's a factual assessment.

As a historian of early Chinese history, I can confirm that nobody in modern academia - whether in the US, China, or Japan - thought Himiko was not a historical figure.

The section about her in the Book of Wei is actually very detailed, much more thorough than any other ancient Japanese rulers shown up in the Chinese records before Prince Shotoku (or most of the ancient Korean or Vietnamese or Xiongnu rulers shown up in the Chinese records). Such an info dump and disparity suggest that there was some genuine communication and/or back-and-forth between the Wei and the Yamatai courts, or the Chinese records wouldn't have much to say about her. Himiko is not someone we "know nothing about" or "poorly attested" (and on that matter, "poorly attested" does not equal "semi-historical"), but someone with enough info that the modern East Asian historians have dedicated much serious research on.

 

[gdr_willter]

Yes, I don't know why people want to believe she isn't real without reading the records about her.

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

If this discussion is about how I mistakingly called her semi-historical, then let it be known that I repent

This is a not a belief I cling to, and I only dislike Himiko as a choice because she’s relatively minor and from what I understand we don’t really know what her life was like and what her accomplishments were.

I just carelessly used the wrong phrase.

 

[AriochIV]

Yes, I don't know why people want to believe she isn't real without reading the records about her.

Calling her semi-historical does not mean she wasn't real. I don't know why you're fixated on that.

Semi-historical means that there is some historical evidence, but usually more subsequent legends or historical fiction. "Ahistorical" or "fictional" means not real. No one here is saying that Himiko is fictional or that she didn't exist.

I just carelessly used the wrong phrase.

Not at all, I think your phrase was entirely accurate.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Calling her semi-historical does not mean she wasn't real. I don't know why you're fixated on that.

Because she is historical, not semi-historical. Semi-historical means that the figure is based on a certain historical person, but the transmitted references we can see now heavily blended the historical person with myths, tall tales, and rhetorical imaginations, a larger-than-life creation that cannot hold with rigorous source criticism. Himiko is not such a case, and calling her semi-historical is inaccurate, especially from an academic standpoint.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Also totally possible, although not feeling very "antiquated" when juxtaposed against Han China, not to mention really doesn't serve as a great "origination" point for Japan as a whole when the history extends back so much farther.

It really depends how the devs are viewing Japan/Korea and if they want to devote two whole antiquity civs to that region.

Japan at least was specifically mentioned by the devs about a potential 3 path. I personally think Heian Japan is a good starting point because that's when Japan as a singular culture started to emerge and it the best attested time period, at least pre-shogunate, to make a list of potential great people, civics, infrastructure, and military UUs.

Mutual unlock are probably fated to happen, yes.

But the mutual part is important here. If they both unlock each other, then they almost certainly also have unlock thrir next age self which will help mollify people a lot. It's the implication that one is the successor of thenother I think they'll still want to avoid.

I guess that raises the question of would that diminish Silla's chances of appearing in Crossroads, without another Korean civ to progress into? How would they feel about progressing into Ming?
Due to regional and cultural similarities, I don't think that Silla progressing into Edo Japan, or inversely Heian Japan into Goryeo is as egregious as other progressions, but maybe I'm just in the minority?

 

[stealth_nsk]

Because she is historical, not semi-historical. Semi-historical means that the figure is based on a certain historical person, but the transmitted references we can see now heavily blended the historical person with myths, tall tales, and rhetorical imaginations, a larger-than-life creation that cannot hold with rigorous source criticism. Himiko is not such a case, and calling her semi-historical is inaccurate, especially from an academic standpoint.

So it's a question of terminology. And since dictionaries don't have a clear definition, the discussion looks a bit pointless.

I'm in the camp of those who don't like this term being used, but not because it's necessary wrong, but because it has too different meanings.

 

[gdr_willter]

Calling her semi-historical does not mean she wasn't real. I don't know why you're fixated on that.

Semi-historical means that there is some historical evidence, but usually more subsequent legends or historical fiction. "Ahistorical" or "fictional" means not real. No one here is saying that Himiko is fictional or that she didn't exist.


Not at all, I think your phrase was entirely accurate.

In this case, there are too many historical knowledges and studies on her to say those are less than legends and fictions. Just you don't know about it. (Book of Wei is a record of the time!) She is fully historical, regardless how later medias treated her.

 

[Guandao]

I bet the real Himiko looked like an old Japanese grandma, not the young woman they portray here.

 

[Siptah]

I bet the real Himiko looked like an old Japanese grandma, not the young woman they portray here.

Yes, she was born a grandmother. Right after she became a high shaman, of course.

 

[Guandao]

Yes, she was born a grandmother. Right after she became a high shaman, of course.

My post was partly a reference to a Korean poster saying Seondeok of Shilla was actually old when she became the leader.
Firaxis does have a habit of making leaders look younger than they did when they actually ruled.

 

[Lord Lakely]

My post was partly a reference to a Korean poster saying Seondeok of Shilla was actually old when she became the leader.
Firaxis does have a habit of making leaders look younger than they did when they actually ruled.

To be fair, she sounds fairly mature in this short:

 

[PorkBean]

As mentioned above, the Wajinden and other Chinese/Korean sources are actually quite detailed. The semi-historicity only occurs when you attempt to conflate her with a figure from the Kojiki or Nihon Shoki. The long-standing problem for Japanese scholars has been that these foundational texts allegedly describe events during the time in which Himiko lived, without mentioning either her or her kingdom, so suggestions have been made that she may have been a character under a different name, or an Empress, or an Emperor's wife/sister/daughter etc. In my view it's also likely the reason that there have been strong efforts to link her kingdom - Yamatai - to sites in the Nara basin, from where the Imperial family is said to have originated.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

I bet the real Himiko looked like an old Japanese grandma, not the young woman they portray here.

Japanese media loves to portray her as young, attractive shaman queen. Any mangakas who did her story or portrays her tend to do that.

 

[AriochIV]

Civilization leaders exist completely outside of time. The physical age at which they're portrayed doesn't seem terribly important, beyond meeting some kind of popular perception.

 

[The Fanatical]

I bet the real Himiko looked like an old Japanese grandma, not the young woman they portray here.

At some point in her life she was young too. There is nothing wrong with portraying her like that. Look at Pericles for example. Young in Civilization IV, old in Civilization VI.