[Extension] [POLL] More Wonders for VP

[Dimmy]

I suggest lowering or removing the wonder cost scaler.

Only for speed higher than normal then please, at normal speed it feels right, even a bit unnoticeable I'd say

 

[adan_eslavo]

Only for speed higher than normal then please, at normal speed it feels right, even a bit unnoticeable I'd say

I won't remove it. I will try to adjust it first.
I suspect that everything depends on the mode you play. On light mode, there defnitely more WWs in game, so the scaler go up. Also when you play 8-player game vs 12-player game - this also matters because WWs are spread through these civs on a wider area.
If you have other ideas how to reduce the number of WWs in game without increasing scaler, which as you can see has its flaws, then let me know.

 

[TakkuPanda]

Do you play light or hard version?

I started light one for the testing on 8 players, and to be honest, i have the same feeling. I captured few cities containing wonders, and built a bunch of my own, so now in Information Era I have 650% cost penalty.

I will modify them a bit, to improve that, but, huh, I wonder if there can be done more...

Would it be possible to make the captured wonders not count towards the cost scaling?
You could capture capitals with not-so-beneficial wonders but they would add heavily to your future wonder cost anyway and it's sad when that happens.

Or the scaling could be proportionately similar to the base game scaling of 25/15/10.
If 40/35/30 is too high, then maybe something like 40/25/15 might work?

 

[adan_eslavo]

Would it be possible to make the captured wonders not count towards the cost scaling?
You could capture capitals with not-so-beneficial wonders but they would add heavily to your future wonder cost anyway and it's sad when that happens.

Or the scaling could be proportionately similar to the base game scaling of 25/15/10.
If 40/35/30 is too high, then maybe something like 40/25/15 might work?

Scalers are #Defines in VP. You can make a proposal on Congress for it. I only use available tools.

 

[statusquo]

For example, in my current game I'm steamrolling everything, I have the most yet by industrial era each wonder costs 50-70 turns on epic to complete

My approach to this was usually a follows:

• I don't build wonders which i do not consider "awesome", so the cost don't i want scale too much.. obviously..
• On higher difficulty, i was usually technologically behind AI, so i usually didn't feel this problem, until snowball about Industrial/Modern era
• Gold on some point shouldn't be big issue, so i always assume, i will rush them
• And this is i believe most important, i always save my Great Enginners for wonders, i mean, i start saving them about Renaissance Era,
  When i get the tech, i like to build wonder asap, rush with cash, while already having Great Enginner, or at least expecting one in few turns.
  This allow me usually to shorten 20-30 turns to 2-5 turns or even insta buy. For this reason i always prefer to grab reformation, that allows me to
  buy any Great Person, starting from industrial Era, which for some reason, AI never takes..
  My thinking is that few turns of Capitol is worth much more than few turns in any other city, so saving many turns in capitol is better than 1 even perma juicy production tail.
• I usually start Authority, so to get the edge, you can delay your culture bomb from other great person, so you have another border pop up and get, some free production
  from Authority border pop up. I usually play culture+faith, from expending Great Person, so even expending Engineer, can give me decent amount of culture, to pop up border, but obviously,
  great writer, can do it much better.. Depending on city production, era and religion scaling, it can be few turns or even more worth of production.
  Or you can use Culture process before you get the tech, to assure good timing so that border growth will happen very shortly after you start work on wonder
• This is long shot, but you can have Spys/Diplomats in AI cities, that have very good production/technological lead, to know if the AI is no try to build, same wonder.
  Last game, i discovered that from time to times, your Diplomats can actually give you the info on the i believe "intrigue" screen, that AI is building some wonder.
  But for production reason, im always most worry about what happening in the opponents capitols.

Wiki says hammer scaling on Great Enginner is "250 + 25* Pop Hammers when used to hurry" and i believe 25% per Manufactory. Last game if i recall correctly,
my first rushed wonder got like 2500 production, and second got like 6000, assured me usually or insta purchase or like 1-3 turns of production..

But generally, yea, i agree, that scaling from conquered wonders could be kinda tuned down a little..
But then again, let say you don't build wonders, and on some point you start conquering cities, you would really deserve to build Modern
Era wonders in few turns, don't think it would be that fair..
Maybe scaler to wonders from conquered city should be "per city" not per wonder in the city? let say capped at the era of "youngest" wonder? Im just thinking out loud..
Hmm.. just realised, i don't know answer to this question.. do human player lose Wonder Scaler if he lose city with a wonder?

 

[Rosete]

Do you play light or hard version?

I play on hard version. But I also play on communitu so the restrictions isn't too bad. I actually think the wonder restrictions are awesome at spreading the wonders around.

Some suggestions to improve wonder spam:
- decrease the cost of wonders in renaissance era and beyond to hedge against wonder cost scaler
- take out the wonder cost scaler, use a harsher pop+city scaler instead. Similar to how courthouse costs are scaled, but harsher.

I think it would be best if wonders take around 20-30 turns to build in your most productive city regardless of era. I don't mind if these changes allow the AI to gobble up all of the available wonders. I just really want to see more wonders present in my games. In the current state, by the industrial era, realistically the only civ that can build wonders are my conquered vassals as they have their wonder count reset (by war). Even strong AI can't build wonders because the costs are too high and there are so many other buildings to build.

 

[gwennog]

Personally, for me there is nothing to change. I play as Emperor on Communitu with MW in hard version.
When entering the industrial era, I generally have 10-16 wonders, as I don't play war, these are very often the ones I built.
At the same time, the number of wonders in play is around 60 (with 8 civs in play), which is quite enough.
Lowering the cost of production would lead to a permanent hunt for wonders when choices must be made.
A very interesting phenomenon with the system in place is that civilizations which started later (due to the UA or UB) can catch up in wonder construction. At the beginning they have none and when they reach their peak of power, they start to build them and can get ahead of other civilizations because as a result, the cost is cheaper for them.
So, for me, don't change anything in the hard version or in the ideas proposed before, I think lowering the increase in cost depending on the wonders in the conquered cities.
Or just change the scaler as recommended @TakkuPanda , Is this data accessible in SQL?

 

[adan_eslavo]

Ok, I read all fo your suggestions and voices are spread out. I have to play once more on hard to see how there it goes.
The problem with most of your ideas is I have no tools for that. Currently I'm using prepared defines from VP, that are also normally in use. The only thing I could change easily is to add a pop scaler in cost of current ones, but... this is also bad in the endgame, even worse, because no matter when you build wonders, the cost is higher and higher, while now, it goes down on era change.

 

[Dimmy]

2 "bugs" I noticed in my current game (Not sure if from VP or this mod or a conflict but since wonder related...):
1) Policy finishers wonders are not showing which other wonders they are exclusive with on info tooltip anymore. Not a big deal though but some other info might be missing?

2)Slater Mill cannot be built but again cannot see why from tooltip. But on the civpedia it shows "only until Medieval" so not going to happen ever ^^. Civpedia also says 14 policies required but it seems to be actually 13 like the wonder Panama canal unlocked at the same time (says 13 policies and "only until Modern Era")

►Any chance for a quick fix for the Slater Mill like editing a file or something?

EDIT: I actually have VP 3.7.4 and not 3.10.x, forgot to update when updating MW... Stupid high me.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Vote for this: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/6-80-show-global-mutual-exclusiveness-in-the-ui.686187/

 

[adan_eslavo]

2 "bugs" I noticed in my current game (Not sure if from VP or this mod or a conflict but since wonder related...):
1) Policy finishers wonders are not showing which other wonders they are exclusive with on info tooltip anymore. Not a big deal though but some other info might be missing?

2)Slater Mill cannot be built but again cannot see why from tooltip. But on the civpedia it shows "only until Medieval" so not going to happen ever ^^. Civpedia also says 14 policies required but it seems to be actually 13 like the wonder Panama canal unlocked at the same time (says 13 policies and "only until Modern Era")

►Any chance for a quick fix for the Slater Mill like editing a file or something?

What version of VP and MW do you have?

1. Slatter Mill is now an Amercian WW. One of the three.
2. It has 0 Policy requirement like f.e. Policy WWs.
3. MaxStartEra aka "only until..." is, I suppose, only used for the games where you do not start the game normally, but let's say from Renaissance. This paramter has no impact on regular gameplay. Int he mod all American WWs are set to Modern era.

As I can see there's something wrong on your side. For Palace of Westminster you have "Flavoures Help Text", with appropriate prefix informing you about the requirements. For Slatter Mill you have original VP one, and the requirement is missing, but it should be there.

 

[adan_eslavo]

v21 is on with some new stuff and fixes. Remember to download and install new effects mod at least v6.0. Link here and in the op.

- added Aurora Borealis Natural Wonder - unique 3-tile wonder exclusive for Snow/Tundra terrain (credits to @gwennog and @ghost toast);
- revamped era scalers for WWs to 50-30-20-10 (was 40-35-30-20);
    - now older WWs have lower impact on the cost, but if you build one or two of the actual era, then the cost jumps more;
    - if you capture a city with a bunch of older WWs, it will be a bit less punishing for you, so less chance contemporary WWs will be blocked;
- some WWs have now SingleLeagueVotes parameter (not scaling) instead of ExtraLeagueVotes (scaling):
    - Old Bridge in Mostar (2), Orszaghaz (1), Mount Rushmore (1), Anitkabir (1), Arecibo (1), Taipei 101 (1);
    - St. Peter's Basilica have the scaler left (similarly like original Palace of Westminster, but only 1 instead of 2);
    - Rock of Gibraltar also has the scaler left;
        - as a compensation, defensive bonus lowered to 5% (was 10%);
    - all corresponding texts corrected;
- minor text corrections;

Uploaded updated PDFs with the World Wonders and Natural Wonders details.

 

[APLion]

Aurora Borealis? At this time of year? At this time of day? In this part of the forum? Localized entirely within your thread?

 

[adan_eslavo]

Aurora Borealis? At this time of year? At this time of day? In this part of the forum? Localized entirely within your thread?

Sorry, but I didn't get what you mean...

 

[APLion]

Sorry, but I didn't get what you mean...

Old Simpsons meme (you can google "aurora borealis simpsons")

 

[adan_eslavo]

Old Simpsons meme (you can google "aurora borealis simpsons")

Oh, boy, that's a good one

 

[gwennog]

Adan, I saw a problem with promotion with VP 4.2.5 and the previous version of MW:
Roof of the World in the list give the description of Descending Dragon

 

[adan_eslavo]

Adan, I saw a problem with promotion with VP 4.2.5 and the previous version of MW:
Roof of the World in the list give the description of Descending Dragon

But only in Pedia, right? There was an error in db.

 

[gwennog]

But only in Pedia, right? There was an error in db.

Yes

 

[adan_eslavo]

v21.1 with reworked El Dorado and Cerro de Potosi and some fixes:

- reworked Natural Wonder's abilities giving free luxuries:
    - Cerro de Potosi:
        - deleted free Silver;
        - now spawns 2 Silver around;
        - all Silver gain +1 Science;
    - El Dorado:
        - deleted free Gold;
        - deleted +2 Gold to all Gold; now all Gold gain +1 Faith;
        - now spawns 2 Gold around;
- added FlagPromoOrder and OrderPriority for new promotions;
- fixed text issues:
    - fixed Ha Long Bay's promotion pedia entry;
    - Statue of Zeus now mentions Workers not Settlers (immunity);
    - Updated Great Lighthouse text (now mentions about Navigation II, not Great Lighthouse promotion);