[POLL] More Wonders for VP

[adan_eslavo]

For me, explanation of why the bonuses are what they are is great, but it belongs in the Strategy text not the Help text.
Also, there will be a large change to how tooltips are created in the future @azum4roll and there, it might make sense in the help text but it will probably be clearer when we have a version of that we can test.

By the future change you mean the style or the coding? Do you mean all help texts will be reworked?
I know they have some flaws. I want to rework them a bit, giving previous feedback from players. Mostly simplify. I don't want to delete them totally, because I spent some time on them, but in worst case I will do that.
Moving this to strategy text might be a solution. Hmm... But there's no such in game, right? Civilopedia then?

 

[Jeddite]

I don't mean if you are talking about the same thing, but I do don't have a clue what I should or shouldn't get in term of terrain to be able to get what wonders, and I specifically switched to more normal texts in options. Some have terrain hill but 1 with circle which in base VP would mean hill on adjecent tile, but require to be on the hill directly. It doesn't concern me as I am still new to the mod and it would be hard to go back anyway, similar to 34UC but yeah. Also many games are Mohendjo-daro or your games will be a tier more diffcult but it might be deity specific so not a mod concern, but it's OPiness can't be overestimated. Other than specific situations like this, I wish this sosoner or related gets trimmed, balanced around the edges and incorporated into the VP, if the author and the community allowes, but it would be another few years probably, considering how long 34UC took to even consider it.

Also happiness is counted separately for every tile of NW, and the number of them remanining also considers separeate tiles, they may be counted as one in map and mod internal calculations, but still. It can be easily evidenced by a screenshot if you want, but it should be the same in your games, right?

 

[hokath]

By the future change you mean the style or the coding? Do you mean all help texts will be reworked?

It's not 100% clear to me which is why I tagged azum. I pinged you something on discord to look at.
Yes unfortunately Wonders don't have strategy text like Buildings do

 

[azum4roll]

Most database columns and tables, including what the building boosts and what boosts the building, will be automatically generated in the tooltip. You can have the rest of the details (Lua stuff, flavour text, etc.) in the Help text, which is still shown at the bottom of the tooltip if it exists.

You can always have Strategy text on wonders, and they should show up on Civilopedia.

 

[adan_eslavo]

I don't mean if you are talking about the same thing, but I do don't have a clue what I should or shouldn't get in term of terrain to be able to get what wonders, and I specifically switched to more normal texts in options. Some have terrain hill but 1 with circle which in base VP would mean hill on adjecent tile, but require to be on the hill directly. It doesn't concern me as I am still new to the mod and it would be hard to go back anyway, similar to 34UC but yeah. Also many games are Mohendjo-daro or your games will be a tier more diffcult but it might be deity specific so not a mod concern, but it's OPiness can't be overestimated. Other than specific situations like this, I wish this sosoner or related gets trimmed, balanced around the edges and incorporated into the VP, if the author and the community allowes, but it would be another few years probably, considering how long 34UC took to even consider it.

Also happiness is counted separately for every tile of NW, and the number of them remanining also considers separeate tiles, they may be counted as one in map and mod internal calculations, but still. It can be easily evidenced by a screenshot if you want, but it should be the same in your games, right?

I know that the number of remaining NWs is in fact number of tiles, so if you have GBR undiscovered, then it shows u 3, not 1.
Requirements go as follows: Plot means the tile underneath the city, Terrain means tiles around and underneath.

 

[adan_eslavo]

Most database columns and tables, including what the building boosts and what boosts the building, will be automatically generated in the tooltip. You can have the rest of the details (Lua stuff, flavour text, etc.) in the Help text, which is still shown at the bottom of the tooltip if it exists.

You can always have Strategy text on wonders, and they should show up on Civilopedia.

I will check that and try out.

 

[Jeddite]

Falun mine, Wieliczka, and perhaps others granted luxes (copper, salt) are not doubled by east india company(or whatever it is called now, i forgot) is it intended?
I also feel like they increase monopoly requirement and number of total luxes in the world, am I right?

 

[azum4roll]

Chartered Company effect is "+100% Luxury Resources from Improved Tiles" (owned by the city). Other sources are not affected.

 

[Jeddite]

Those two salts from moscow spawned by the wonder weren't duplicated.

 

[hokath]

Duplicated by what? You have edited in a Chartered Company?

 

[Jeddite]

No lol, I'm much further in a game, wieliczka spawns 2 salt resources to the map so they should be doubled, maybe east india company only takes into acccount luxes that were on the map at the creation of the map?
first screenshot was to evidence those salt that were not doubled were in the city territory from the beginning

 

[adan_eslavo]

View attachment 734844
No lol, I'm much further in a game, wieliczka spawns 2 salt resources to the map so they should be doubled, maybe east india company only takes into acccount luxes that were on the map at the creation of the map?
first screenshot was to evidence those salt that were not doubled were in the city territory from the beginning

That might be the issue. What about reloading the game?

If you confirm it you can post the VP issue.

 

[Jeddite]

That might be the issue. What about reloading the game?

If you confirm it you can post the VP issue.

It didn't change at reloading, I managed to finished the game in the meantime and actually forgot about checking with IGE lol.

I will try something I planned to check anyway: Falun Mine in order to double it with east india company and claim that +10% production next game or some games down later. then we'll know for sure that's not just wieliczka but all resources putting wonders so possible lock at map generation.

Spoiler :

 

[Jeddite]

I can confirm that Falun Mine works is some different way than Wieliczka, I was able to perform my brilliant castling move (chess terminology) where I prioritize steel as 1 or 2 medieval tech a bit (not too great, entering through education or theology is usually much better, but still), get Falun Mine in order to built the Chartered Company (I've finally learned the new name lol) in that city and if you have copper as dispersed among many civs lux resource and less or equals 7 total tiles, you will get monopoly from it (it does NOT increase the total number of lux, at least for monopoly requirements).

However I can clearly see an exploitable and unfun mechanism of very stringent requirements to build nealry every wonder. I would be fine if those were binding only to the player, and non to AI, but they aren't. The settings file says there is an option to disable them but it is not working/WIP as of now saddly. What file should I edit to ensure those rquirements are removed to basically all wonders (I would be fine if they stay for the added ones but they are messing VP ones too). The mod is so great that I am willling to go through all the wonders of them manually to remove what is needed, especially if it just about removign something after mass searching a keyword in notepad.

After two longer games with it it's too cheesy to always be able to get terracotta and half of a time the great library/the oracle on even huge maps because the AIs heavily favors fresh water/river and usually non-hill settling. The situation where many tradition AIs cannot take off cause they can't build most wonders in their capital is also unacceptable. I understand that for role-playing games or when wonders are for flavor they may have a place, but if you want competetive (it's term from multiplayer games, but I mean like where AI gets all the bonuses/opprtunities in order to create the toughest envoronment) game, this is handicap for the player you can read requirement in advancement.

EDIT: I've experimentally deleted every second "passage" (between two --- lines) that referenced UPDATE Buildings SET and no river for example, or INSERT INTO Building_ClassesNeededInCity or other lua (hard) from
WorldWOdersDefinitions.sql.

I have also deelted all (without last end) from another file that had checks for requirements but only those which referenced specific wonders, the general ones I left cause they are only fired when there is check activated from WorldWOdersDefinitions.sql. Now let's watch how much the game will break also due to modmod compabilities. It took like ten minutes to understand how the files work and another 5 or 10 to scroll through them and deleted desired passages. Thanks for edan_eslavo, as I think he thought of this and kept what wonders are (and updating their splaschcreens), their requirements, and what they do in three separate sections (I think also fourth one for falvors used) clearl visible for each wonder which hastened both understanding how the files work and then what to precisely do in mass manner.

I will test in a new game and will host the files for you if you guys want the no requirements at all version, cause I chopped each and every one of them.

 

[gwennog]

I've been playing this mod for many years with hard restrictions, and the AI is never behind in terms of the number of wonders.
Indeed, the hills condition is a bit too prevalent in the wonders; I reported it to @adan_eslavo , allowing for wonder series that are less accessible to others, but many AI also have a starting point in areas with hills and can take advantage of them.
The proof is in your screenshot above; the two Polish cities you're playing against are on hills.

 

[Jeddite]

It doesn't matter, they were underperforming already and conquered. Those were marginal cities when I was conquering Poland's capital in renaissance with single digit pops, latte settles from tradiditon civs, not really representative. Meanwhile I specifically moved settler to get Wieliczka. Then made moved a city from where I would normally do it, to get something terraces *which also went nongrabbed by AI 1.5 era, guess why. I was the only one with good cities on tundra and in mountains, so I got a lot of that stuff. And then settled strategically and fuelled production to cities that have completely ridiculous req like snow. Not to mention I've never seen St Mont something or Monastery something (one tile island, seriously? - AI tends to builds those craps cities yes, but in industrial by the earliest, modern more likely, those wonders are disabled are 2 era I think).
Even policy finisher wonders have requirements which can rule you out completely and AIs too and you can ensure what you/who gets who if you check their cities. Meanwhile nearly every game mausoleum of halicarnassus gets unbuilt as it requires coastal hill (?!) which is basically useless to anything but tradidtion/progress capitals. You can feel safe if the other tradiditon is on the desert, he gets Djenne, the other too you have 100% which goes against any Civ tradition of wonders being a gamble.
Policy wonders requirements go against anything seen in VP. Indeeed while I was removing all those requirements, they were immensely exclusive and abundant. In basic VP there was a lot more tension in this aspect, and game kept you much more invested in any particular wonder - you couldn't guarantee it and everybody could get it. There were maybe like 10 wonders with requirements and they fit the theme (tradition halicarnassus didn't get coastal hill for example, Zeus had hill, and Petra desert (abusable but this was the only abusable/guaranteed one in VP for the most part) With this mod, along with all possibilities it creates and freshness, you can basically guarantee or rule out or just have it disabled for at least 75% of wonders. It actually makes wonder game much less exciting unless you play on IDK map four times the huge size with all civs.. Chopping off requirements would catapult this mod into really competetive experience and I would really like to feel the pressure of finding other ways to try to play well besides cheesing some strong wonders (I will also try to stop using culture process before writers trick, it's really make culture civs too strong, even if that's the only way to solve some situations)

And the method I used to remove requirements: it doesn't work, they clearly only had terrain requirements removed, and all cost and tech and effects are in the files. However they just appear all (including those requiring holy cities, which requirement I did not remove, it is in the separate section) like 40 wonders to be built from turn 1 in new game. It had broken something hard, which isn't surprising as it was trying to bruteforce the modmod coding. So my question still stands

EDIT: It does work (throwing requirments from WWdefinitions file) but only until buddhas of bamyan, early classical, up to that, WW are visible in the tech tree and are buildable in every city (kuk which needed marsh iirc, altamira, mohenjo without river with proper cost). After Gate of the Sun all wonders disappear from the tech tree, and they appear also from turn 1 to be able to get (all up to information era) and they have 1 cost (production). Interestingly, those early ones tech and cost requirements tech work, halicarnassus is for example or stonehenge have cost in civilopedia and appear in tech tree. stonehenge is buildable on any terrain after researching wheel. afterclissical all wonders disappear from tech tree and are buildable with one production already. they have tech and cost requirements intact in the files. I am SURE that the fact all wonders break after gate of the sun included, is because it is the first wonder that is referenced not only in WWdefinitions,sql but also in WWuniquerequirements.lua

I'm not talking/caring about text files, the game will still display requirements, theya re noy used in game, just flavor text and they will remain that way, it will be too much with no effect to do.

I am aware Edan probably will probably say it is nearly impossible/tedious due to modmod being naturaally grown over years with those requirements put there and referencing different files and so on. So I'm not asking you to make another version without requirement (unless you have too much time like me lol) but maybe you will remember how the mod was structured to hint me how those requirements could work, what is the basic interplay between lua v sql wonder settings, as they are split. I will try to try and assemsble it myself to not bother you too much. After all it is a rather niche wish of mine to try total war wonder edition. Maybe I will fail, it is still amazing mod, it's scope is so vast and comprehensive. I might sound a bit pretentious and critical with my comments on the requirements - please do not take it as the attack on the mod, I'm a great fan of it and would love it to be enhanced, if I criticize those requirements it's because I very like it and it's like you are more frustrated by the shortcomings of something you like because you care, right?. it's byoend a monumental addition to the VP, only comparable to the 34 UC, and a lot of fun. I understand your role-playing/more historical approach and I bet it's fitting for many. I just think the mod would be even more fun with no requirements, just my niche preference. If nothing can be done on easy, large scale way- it's alright, I will just test how much requirements I can remove without breaking something badly in bit by bit manner and share results for those interested!


To clarify: everyhing i've said is about light wodners requirements. I've played with 1 setting (light requirements from settings file) and this is what I'm talking about, every wonder have terrain req, including pyramids, sonehenge (grassland flat iirc, no competition), even heck the brandenburg gate. They aren't light in any way: many have no water or said hills, or river, or leaning tower of pisa have marsh (lol). And I didn;t know I can't get great wall, nor anyone if I have the tech and the allr equirements it lists are met. I might have overlooked it in game, but the files states you need to be at war or have specific attitudes from AI. I dread what might that looked like in 2 which is dfault.

By he way small resources icons v5 for MWfVP seems to be bugged a bit? A minor issue, nothing to worry about but it doesn't give natural wonders icons like resources, so there's no difference to v4. It my be my issue, cause I have many modmods adding new resources , you can see for example eye of the sahara doe snot give them. It would be great to also gave option to read what some natural wonders do when first settled (like some give uniwue Great art, or yields) but it is only able to know that by reading the initial notification when you discover them. they aren't in civilopedia, and I don't remember what advantages AI or me can get, I just don't know/forget all those abilities on wonders. Here's a screenshot with eue on the sahara not visible. I am using (overhaul) More Wonders for VP (beta v24 ver 2) if that matters.

Spoiler :

 

[Jeddite]

Okay, my intuition was right: as I tinkered a bit more, my method does work.

I will probably make 2 version one for with many requirements removed for many wonders (not for those which may break, or are hardcoded from VP, not More Wonders, not for those that are a fitting niche, for example Majorville for Tundra). Second is the same but with new policy wonders detached from policy finishers at all and non exlusive, just normal ones. Those ones from VP (Djenne, etc) single wondre for a policy, will still need them, but no other requirements (desert, river that were added with MWfVP) and not excluding other wonders that were previosly from those policies. For example Notre Dame is no longer tradition finisher and doesn't require a river, it can be snatched by AI who built Djenne.

Unique old and new ideology wonders are still mutually exclusible, you have to chose and aim to be first, and still give all the others to competitors.
The same is the fact for the infrastructure wonders (you can only get one Interstate Highway, Transsiberian, Concorde) They are great boost to late AIs and even up the field. Their requirements for resources (aluminum) and actually reasonable and it's late enough for you to take into acount and aim/be excluded.
Karnak was a weird bad designed wonder: always your first building is monument, you will fall back entirely irreperable, at least on deity i it is not. Having a free mounment on a wonder that is on granary already is just not conceivable. It is now reduced in cost in line with those wonders from agriculture and moved to it.
First techs tier, Wieliczka, Stonehenge and Pyramids are now no requirements to make a player have to compete with AI and not have them unavialble or guaranteed.
Some wonders still have their req like Habitat something i don't recall that gives +3 pop to tundra, Majorville, Nazca, they are very valid and part of the wonder core and niche, while they will not have hill/river anymore unless it's very core of the wonder and necessitated by its strength and character.
Some like Rockefeller will have coast, but lose river/hill which are too exclusive and not usually available on most AI coast cities.
Nealry all hill or flat land are removed, there will be few that will still be present due to balance reasons that substantiates and is offset by their power.
I can't remove citadel/fort for req (too interdependent lua coding) I think so they stay for now, btu Brandenburg doesn't require river anymore.
Some req like very saddly a landmark of all things to the Louvre stay cause they are hard coded in lua in some way.
Removed are most if not all jungle/forest req that are not from VP
TBH anything that is from VP, like Statecraft for Westminster, Desert for Perta are not modifiable in this modmod, so they stay but are very rare and known.
The cheesiest thing available: looking who build which religious wonder and being able to guarantee you get one, as they were mutually exclusive (someone who built el gibra couldn't build hagia sophia and 7 more wonders etc). They still al require holy city but are not mutually exlusive so plan wisely, you are no longer quaranteed anything.

Now, look in the civilopedia (right click on a wonder on tech.production) and scroll down to the technical info only there is now actual info. There you will get info if coast or hill or smth is required. Texts are outdated and they were anyway in the normal More Wonders which I discovered by checking files, many times they stated hard (option 2) requirement in text even if 1 was enabled leading to even more confusion. TIf you play with those default texts you probably don't know what the wonders does anyway, I didn't as it is a new invention, and even switching to normal texts doesn't clarify much (it's also impossible as texts for civilopedia must be one for the mod regardless of internal modmod options). Wonders like ROman Forum were said to require marsh while they didn't with option 1. Maybe I will clean it up one day just for my version. It is not the oversight on part of Edan Eslavo, his intended wonder texts are correct and they cannot be automatically changed due to engine limitations if someone switch to 1 option of requirements.
Policy screens and wonders unique to them don't mention their exclusivity or for wonders that have them removed (pre ideologies) so at least that is cleaned up, remember that those base VP ones still requires them Wartburg for example says it needs progress finisher but it doesn't and no longer says it is exlusive to Forbidden palace and it indeed isn't. Policy screen don't mention it at all.



I will EDIT this post when I test more and finish initial versions.

If you remember Adan, can you just briefly explain what those two mean, and if anythign at all all important?
some coding involves second bracket when denoting ([...] AND (Value=1 OR Value=2)) and some don't, I assume it's a vestige of former system that was differerntiating between them
what sometimes appearing UNION ALL denote? it could be explained in the file, sorry for lack of due dillegence, trying just seem faster and would have have to be done anyway so I skipped learning the files, in place of checking and applying patterns.

I almos got everything to work as of Wednesday and will post changelog I compiled for each wonder and new rules (this time in more clean and properly formatted way with no typos, from my dystrophy weak topress and chaotic fingers haha)
Then @adan_eslavo, you and everyone can review it and I can send you initial version if you wanna test or check. You can decide if you want this version of modmod I compiled for my personal tastes meets your quality criteria and if youw ant to see it hosted in your main thread of this monumental mod. Then I will post two versions of this modmodmod. I want to regularly use it in the future so I will try to keep up with updates for the mod. Mod, as of only affects only WorldWOnderDefinitions, sql, is basically one file and requires correct versions of settings in GlobalSettings file, which I will also provide or anyone can switch a their own initiative
I actually left a bit more requiremnts that I thought I would that aling with how AI expands on higher difficulties, and every biome (coast, requiring no coast, tundra, plains willl have 2-3 niche wonders) but desert or grassland no more, hills req have been halved but is still retained for some fitting wonders in no cheesy way (so many req that only human willl conciously aim and meet them) and even a few rivers/flat remain (including aj mahal cause it is so powerfuL) but those are like only 1/3 of what they were aand I am quite happy with the design, flow and hopeful for stability (each era tested so far with IGE, first full new game incoming). Hopefully now AIs will get and compete with you for twice or thrice (if you will use policy and religious wonders unchained) as many wonders, so be prepared. This will also stand for medium difficulties I hope.
In the future it is probable that I will update texts for this version, so they match correctly with requirements/exclusions and effects.

Remember that you will get less wonders and will need to plan and strategically chosee wonders and devote to them, surveying AI cities no longer is enough. There will still be a lot of flavor and specific req for some wonders but not to be annyoing for the player or excluding for the AI. The modmodmod is intended to reduce complexity (AI can't compue all that) and increase the number, varaiety and speed of getting wonders by the AIs. It will NOT make you get more wonders, but pool will be equalized you vs. AIs for both a bit. The increasing costs will still work very well as it is in VP, and won't leave you completely out of reach.

Everyone feel free to comment and add any insights or proposals for the changelog listing all wonders and if/what change that will come in a few days maybe even today or tomorrow!
I also cqught this line from Adan "
Nope. v24 is under construction. It was leftover I should have deleted, because it has multiple bugs spread out." I was one of those who grabbed v24 and played with it, thinking it was more stable, but it was still WIP by Adan, so I revert to use 23.7 as base for my tweaks, I am glad I found that, and maybe it will bring some answer why some things were working and others not like smal icons. It shouldn;t be used as it is probably something only Adan know how works as he cooks new version, he knows what he is doing, but it is stable and good, I unkownignly played it, just not the good place to start tweaking.