Poll: Should medicine eliminate existing plague?

[AnotherPacifist]

I don't know how often the random generator has beaten me by 1 move to medicine. It's downright frustrating when you've planned ahead (either by researching it yourself or asking your vassals to do it and having planted a spy to steal it). At the very least, existing plagues should be cut in half, if not completely eliminated by medicine.

 

[blizzrd]

Absoultely it should stop existing plague effects. I was quite surprised to learn that it currently does not (the hard way of course).

If for instance you are in the late 1700s and can research a new tech in less than 4 turns with your growing colonial empire, wouldn't it make sense to tell the scientists to stop their current research and start researching Medicine if a deadly plague had just broken out in all of your cities?

It would therefore also make sense that when the Medicine research was learnt the plague could be cured at this time.

 

[musicfreak]

Oh, I thought it did already. I never really went for Medicine for that purpose so I never found out.

I agree, it should definitely stop it immediately.

 

[Cethegus]

What, it doesn't stop it already? How cheap.
At the very least it should cut the remaining time in half although instant cure would be fine too.

 

[SadoMacho]

I'd rather see an other option:
50% chance to cutting the palgue in half with de discovery of medicine.

The Spannish Flu is the real last plague, but was never cured. Smallpox is destroyed but is took a long time.

It would be nice to end those damn plagues though, but would that be a little to easy?

 

[thadian]

Duration in half! I believe you should still be able to get plague in future tech, come on. by that time, we will have nanoviruses spreading. However, medicine should reduce the plague in half and if your in plague at the time, i can see a 20-50% chance (depending on difficulty) per city for it to end in that city.

i also think it should have a vaccine effect. i don't know if that plague bug is in effect, but you shouldn't get plague bouncing to all your cities over and over and...

 

[thadian]

I'd rather see an other option:
50% chance to cutting the palgue in half with de discovery of medicine.

The Spannish Flu is the real last plague, but was never cured. Smallpox is destroyed but is took a long time.

It would be nice to end those damn plagues though, but would that be a little to easy?

Well, we have AIDS, we have hepititus B, cancer, all on the rise. I believe AIDS is a true epidemic, even though our society doesn't fear it like we did so long ago. when the medieval plagues happened, they weren't understood, and now that we understand the plague comes from many things, and not from a god, we can better withstand them.

Between nanotechnology, genetics and tampering with evolutionary viral strains, we are actually in danger of making worse plagues to weaponize. With the advent of medicine, our societies are able to respond better than we could at those earlier ages.

As far as in-game, i would think that there should be no way to end plague. in a size 20 city, even with health improvements, we can assume there are still factors to breed diseases, and spread them. the game has no way to account for health care systems. some systems like in america, are not designed to cure you - only to provide you "long term treatment" to keep you as a financial investor in the medical system as per debt slavery.

even in a future-tech society - who is to say we will have a utopia where industry exists as a means of improving our species and habitat? Can we really say that money will stop being the primary motivator? Even if the medical industry is permanently reformed with a new direction to focus ONLY on public health and not on making money - who is to say we will be able to cure plagues even then?

there are still types of sickness we can not cure, natural and manufactured. example, radiation poisoning or the leftovers of biological weapons.

Therefore, because humans will probably never see an age where we live without plague - the game should never see an age or tech that ends it altogether.

 

[Cethegus]

Those are all good points, Thadian. A few things you said made me wonder something...

Between nanotechnology, genetics and tampering with evolutionary viral strains, we are actually in danger of making worse plagues to weaponize. With the advent of medicine, our societies are able to respond better than we could at those earlier ages.

there are still types of sickness we can not cure, natural and manufactured. example, radiation poisoning or the leftovers of biological weapons.

In this light, should the Spies be allowed to spread Plague (biological weapons) to enemy cities through espionage after the discovery of a certain technology? Would it be too complex to implement into the game or just too "controversial" to be even considered?

EDIT: I remembered we already have "Poison Water Supplies" so forget that.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Therefore, because humans will probably never see an age where we live without plague - the game should never see an age or tech that ends it altogether.

True, but did the epidemics you cite had such a devastating influence on the world as RFC plague has? I wasn't aware Spanish flu etc. was dealing such severe blows to nations' militiary and poplulation like RFC plague does.

And we already have Health concept that limits population's growth.

 

[thadian]

True, but did the epidemics you cite had such a devastating influence on the world as RFC plague has? I wasn't aware Spanish flu etc. was dealing such severe blows to nations' militiary and poplulation like RFC plague does.

And we already have Health concept that limits population's growth.

While we have not seen a massive plague in our era (AIDS is not airborne, thankfully) we can also not be sure that industry would be capable to resolve one before it becomes epidemic. i remember china with their bird flu's and SARS. While i know nothing of their systems or abilities in medicine, they still get wracked with massive sickness.

You are correct that we have not faced a serious national epidemic recently. We may be more prepared than i think we are. Hopefully i will never find out, though the time it takes to research, develop and mass produce a cure would better show if the plague wasn't 100% gone with the advent of medicine.

However, i will note that with internationalism our industries might work together for even better, quicker results. Perhaps this issue should depend on having open borders with another country with medicine? If you have open borders with another country that also has medicine, wouldn't the medical industries of both countries work together on it? Then again, that would probably be complex and annoying to code as well as buggy in action.

 

[onedreamer]

I voted yes (I'm in for a change this time around ).

Thankfully none voted the option with the HIV virus. That's not pertinent as it can't be considered a plague IMHO, since this should at least be an epidemic virus transmittable over air (sorry I don't know the technical terms but that's the point) to spread this much and so bad.

 

[onedreamer]

to answer to Thadian, there won't be (except in Hollywood movies) in the future plagues as bad as the Black Death back in the European Middle Ages, and this NOT because of just Medicine but because of a number of other factors that contribute as much as or even more than Medicine, first that comes to mind is mass and light-speed communication.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Medicine and plague in RFC model the old plagues--bubonic plague, measles and smallpox which are easily preventable and treatable once you know the cure (antibiotics). I should not even have mentioned HIV (or hepatitis B, influenza and other viruses for which there is no way to completely eradicate yet) which is in a totally different category (belongs more to the that you see with large cities). So at the very least, uninfected cities should be inoculated and cities with the plague cured quicker.

 

[wr4th]

Although i voted "yes,.." i think the best and most realistic option would be to make cities with hospitals immune and also make the plague disappear in that city as soon as you build one.

 

[SadoMacho]

The Spannish Flu killed 1/3 of Europe's population in 1918-1919, so I think we can see this as something like the old plagues in Europe. Also, in South Africa, the Flu spead across the land following the railroads, soldiers who fought in Europe were returning home and spread it traveling home by train.
Overal, this flu killed more soldiers en civilians in a year dan WWI. This is something completely different than AIDS, cancer,...
SARS could develope to something similar as the Spannish Flu.

Also, there are viral and bacterial infections. Bacterial infections can be cured by antibiotics (= medicine), viral infections are harder to cure. Maybe a new tech: vaccination or a national wonder : general vaccination project, this is how smallpox was destroyed. But also may have been the cause of the Spannish Flu because of massive vaccination (20 or so illnesses) of American Soldiers when the US Army joined WWI (1917, soldiers in the trenches by 1918)

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Again, influenza and SARS are not representative of the general idea that the medicine tech and plague is representing in the game. They are more properly modeled by the random event where a deadly virus either kills 4 of your city's population and spreads to nearby cities, but you can quarantine the city by paying some gold, and even then, there's an option in that event which says "If we only knew medicine!" If Rhye wanted to model the Spanish flu he would have allowed plague to happen after medicine is learned (maybe at a much lower probability)...oops, I just suggested something I shouldn't.

 

[Lone Wolf]

The Spannish Flu killed 1/3 of Europe's population in 1918-1919,

Wiki says:

It is estimated that anywhere from 20 to 100 million people were killed worldwide,[3] or the approximate equivalent of one third of the population of Europe

An equivalent of 1/3 of Europe WORLDWIDE, not 1/3 OF EUROPE.

1/3 of Europe (every 3rd European killed) would have been a downright demographical catastrophe.

 

[onedreamer]

The Spannish Flu killed 1/3 of Europe's population in 1918-1919

Are we going to STOP QUOTING WIKIPEDIA when we have not enough knowledge on the argument ? Because in that case we can't even discern if what's written is reliable or not. But what's worse, is when we even MISSQUOTE the already questionable and/or disputed informations on wikipedia.
Spanish is spelled with one n and the article says that the equivalent of 1/3 of Europe's population was killed worldwide and over a longer period. But that's probably not even correct, the article is disputed.

This proposal anyways is clearly aimed at game playability, not at total realism.

 

[SadoMacho]

The Spannish Flu can be compared to the Black Death of the Middle Ages. Both were caused because the populations was weakened (WWI or farmine for years because of bad climate). The infections could spread fast and kill a lot of people.

About playability: No medicine => get plague
Discouver medicine during plague => need time to end plague (produce medicine, spread medicine, people becomming immune)
I used the Spannish Flu as an example because during WWI Medicine was starting to develop (Penicillin: use of fungi) and yet the flu spread (antibiotics don't work against the flu virus).
If you want to be immune, rush medicine and hope to get it before the plague spreads.

 

[Lone Wolf]

I play withot plague anyway.