(poll) What civs would you like to see in a hypothetical third expansion?

[Nebel]

No, please develop yours. Because so far all you have done is point out that Portugal was a Catholic-ordained missionary force, that it formed a huge colonial empire (that was for some time incorporated into the Spanish Empire), and that it pioneered trade routes.

I.e., what you attempt to paint as exceptional, Spain already does in VI, with Missions, Conquistadors, and Treasure Fleet. Spain has poached literally all of Portugal's claims to greatness, so there is no reason to add them unless there are still more things they can offer to gameplay.

What I mean is, if you're going to campaign for a new addition, then find a way to argue that it is, in fact, new. Not something that we already have in the game. If VI were only about great empires, we wouldn't have cool things like Georgia and Scotland and Hungary.

Ok, let's remove all the Empires or Civilizations that had similar practices to enlarge their borders & trade because they wouldn't add mechanically anything to the game !

 

[679x]

Just throwing out some ideas that I have had to make Portugal unique and different than Spain, which is easy in my opinion.
Joao II as a leader can give naval units the ability to gain experience from exploration just like Recon units. His agenda would be a combination of the explorer plus he would like to control the most water tiles.
Also naval units and traders can grab territory over coastal tiles (as long as they are three away from the city center.)
Obviously they can get a Nau as a faster Caravel replacement UU (Nau) and a Fetoria as their UI that can be built on land adjacent to a coast and luxury resource which generates extra production for every adjacent luxury resource and fortified strength?

Great ideas right here. I agree - I don't think it'd be too difficult to make Portugal different from Spain. Spain already has a big religious focus: the leader ability/agenda, unique infrastructure, and unique unit are all focused toward religion specifically, so I'd ignore religion in Portugal's uniques just to avoid the overlap. Put emphasis on territorial/colonial control, trade routes + luxury resources, and great admirals + naval prowess. I do admit that Spain already has stuff involving trade routes and naval strength, but that's only in their civilization ability, and the rest is religion-based. Perhaps Portugal should take those types of bonuses and extend them so that all of their uniques tie in to colonies/trade/navy.

Actually, after thinking it through, I would expect such a rendition of Portugal to have more gameplay similarities with Phoenicia than with Spain.

 

[TahamiTsunami]

Needless to say, despite some similarities the 2 countries have, there are plenty of potential ways to make Portugal fun and different from Spain. Assuming another expansion is coming and that it would have focuses on economies, vassals, etc., Portugal would be a very fitting addition for reasons other than it was in the game before. I'm sure the Design Your Own Civ VI civ would be the perfect place to see people elaborate on potential game design for them.

Just to add my two cents about the Sioux that were mentioned on the last page, I personally wouldn't mind seeing them and their notable leaders. However, even ignoring potential Mesoamerican, South American, and Polynesian civs, they wouldn't be my preferred choice for the next Native NA civ or even the one after. While I do think there are ways you could make the Sioux unique and a city list could be made from modern cities/reservations, I just personally think there are other groups like the Navajo, Tlingit, and Iroquois which are more pressing priorities. The Puebloan groups would be up there as a priority too if they allowed it.

To bring up the previous page briefly again, I'd certainly welcome a Hebrew civ too. Is the only reason that it would be 'controversial' to include it being current activities by Israel? If so that is a shame, just like others that reluctantly can't be officially in like the Puebloans, Aboriginal Australians, Tibetans, and Armenians.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Just throwing out some ideas that I have had to make Portugal unique and different than Spain, which is easy in my opinion.
Joao II as a leader can give naval units the ability to gain experience from exploration just like Recon units. His agenda would be a combination of the explorer plus he would like to control the most water tiles.
Also naval units and traders can grab territory over coastal tiles (as long as they are three away from the city center.)
Obviously they can get a Nau as a faster Caravel replacement UU (Nau) and a Fetoria as their UI that can be built on land adjacent to a coast and luxury resource which generates extra production for every adjacent luxury resource and fortified strength?

There we go!

I personally disagree with this design and/or think it unlikely, however. Generally, it feels a bit too "first expansion" civ and would likely be a lot more complicated in a third or fourth expack. That's whatever it is, I guess, and doesn't obviate Portugal one way or another, although--c'mon, it's Portugal. One of the least complicated nations in Europe. So we have this fundamental paradox where Portugal should be simply designed, but is always left on the back burner until later expacks which practically necessitate Portugal being overly complicated.

Specifically, although I'm not opposed to Portugal having a lot of naval trade-oriented features (even though--Spain's Treasury Fleet aside--I would much prefer Swahili take that role), these abilities just feel...esoteric? Redundant? I'm not sure what Portugal could or would want to do with relatively useless water tiles, and the LA seems like an attempt at being Victoria-but-not-Victoria but instead just being Dido-actually-Dido. Same with the ability to grab coastal territory, which is not only quite similar to Indonesia and Maori, but arguably OP if that means Portugal can just forward settle and steal coastal tiles from the other coastal civs.

Idunno. I appreciate the effort because it does give hope that Portugal won't, in fact, be terribly boring. But this particular build feels like it would need some tweaking, and may even be fundamentally incompatible with a game that already has so many civs which care about coastal tiles. I think its ability and agenda would necessarily need to be tied to trade routes, not coastal tiles. Which then brings up the issue of Wilhelmina, Peter, and again, Spain. The design space for Portugal at this point is so small now, guys, to the point that I feel kind of bad for whatever implementation we get (which is how I've felt for quite some time about Byzantium).

Ok, let's remove all the Empires or Civilizations that had similar practices to enlarge their borders & trade because they wouldn't add mechanically anything to the game !

Yet more reductive non-commentary, thanks.

So far, every "empire" in VI has been designed around what it did exceptionally in history, not merely what everyone else did. It's what makes for varied gameplay. Otherwise, if all you want is for every new civ to just generically be good at war, trade, and religion, you can go back to playing Civ II?

So far I'm very bored and disinterested in your rhetoric. All ideology, not a whiff of pragmatism or nuance. I'm sure you will get your wish for Portugal to be in the game, but absolutely none of that victory will have been earned.

 

[Nebel]

So far, every "empire" in VI has been designed around what it did exceptionally in history, not merely what everyone else did.

But the European Global exploration or the Age of Discovery started with the Portuguese discoveries ! So it was de facto historically exceptional until the others followed them.
(And unless you think The Age of Discovery's period was something minor, your attempt to minimize the importance of Portugal in the the old continent's History is ridiculous. )

although--c'mon, it's Portugal. One of the least complicated nations in Europe.

What condescension !
I think that sums you pretty well.

 

[TahamiTsunami]

I think we can all have fun with discussing what civs can be added in the future, what kind of designs they can have, and the things about history we can learn about without anyone here having to resort to condescension or being mean-spirited.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

But the European Global exploration or the Age of Discovery started with the Portuguese discoveries ! So it was de facto historically exceptional until the others followed them.
(And unless you think The Age of Discovery's period was something minor, your attempt to minimize the importance of Portugal in the the old continent's History is ridiculous. )

What condescension !
I think that sums you pretty well.

Oh yay, calloo-callay. You'd rather take things personally than get good. That makes things so much easier for me.

If calling someone out on bringing forth literally one of the most common knowledge, textbook European accomplishments as if it's some novel, amazing, mind-blowing thing, while repeatedly electing to approach the topic of ludohistorically harmonious and strategically variegated game design with the academic depth of a wallaby is condescending, then yes, I am condescending. It's like I'm trying to talk to you at eye level and you still haven't managed to draw your attention from stooping to admire some other person's crotch. It is not my problem if you have elected to create a situation where everything I do amounts to talking over or down to you.

And no, that is not an ad homonym, mods. That is an objective characterization of these fanatically Portugasmic posts which continue to ignore each and every valid criticism I bring with dismissive accusations that I just don't appreciate Portugal or the age of exploration. Which is is nothing more than an anti-factual smear campaign because I happen to think Portugal is cool-ish on some days and that Spain and England and the Netherlands are awesomely designed civs.

Feh.

Grow some thicker skin, dude. If you don't like that your Portugal arguments are so easily torn apart; take a lesson from Alexander's Heteroi and make better arguments.

Moderator Action: Please stop trolling. Your dismissive attitude is not civil in this discussion. leif
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

I think we can all have fun with discussing what civs can be added in the future, what kind of designs they can have, and the things about history we can learn about without anyone here having to resort to condescension or being mean-spirited.

Thanks for the tone-policing, but I didn't start this nonsense. I merely asked what would make Portugal fun, and I still have yet to receive an answer from this guy as he continues to use cheap diversion tactics without having made any argument for how Portugal would be implemented at all.

Moderator Action: Yes, you did start this nonsense. Please do not continue it. leif
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[awesome]

There we go!

I personally disagree with this design and/or think it unlikely, however. Generally, it feels a bit too "first expansion" civ and would likely be a lot more complicated in a third or fourth expack. That's whatever it is, I guess, and doesn't obviate Portugal one way or another, although--c'mon, it's Portugal. One of the least complicated nations in Europe. So we have this fundamental paradox where Portugal should be simply designed, but is always left on the back burner until later expacks which practically necessitate Portugal being overly complicated.

Specifically, although I'm not opposed to Portugal having a lot of naval trade-oriented features (even though--Spain's Treasury Fleet aside--I would much prefer Swahili take that role), these abilities just feel...esoteric? Redundant? I'm not sure what Portugal could or would want to do with relatively useless water tiles, and the LA seems like an attempt at being Victoria-but-not-Victoria but instead just being Dido-actually-Dido. Same with the ability to grab coastal territory, which is not only quite similar to Indonesia and Maori, but arguably OP if that means Portugal can just forward settle and steal coastal tiles from the other coastal civs.

Idunno. I appreciate the effort because it does give hope that Portugal won't, in fact, be terribly boring. But this particular build feels like it would need some tweaking, and may even be fundamentally incompatible with a game that already has so many civs which care about coastal tiles. I think its ability and agenda would necessarily need to be tied to trade routes, not coastal tiles. Which then brings up the issue of Wilhelmina, Peter, and again, Spain. The design space for Portugal at this point is so small now, guys, to the point that I feel kind of bad for whatever implementation we get (which is how I've felt for quite some time about Byzantium).



Yet more reductive non-commentary, thanks.

So far, every "empire" in VI has been designed around what it did exceptionally in history, not merely what everyone else did. It's what makes for varied gameplay. Otherwise, if all you want is for every new civ to just generically be good at war, trade, and religion, you can go back to playing Civ II?

So far I'm very bored and disinterested in your rhetoric. All ideology, not a whiff of pragmatism or nuance. I'm sure you will get your wish for Portugal to be in the game, but absolutely none of that victory will have been earned.

To be fair, I'm sure we'll get one fairly straightforward civ in the third expansion, though most of them will definitely be complicated with powerful bonuses and probably some maluses (or maybe they'll save that for civ7, which wouldn't be a bad idea, and only 1 or 2 will have maluses), but I agree that Portgual probably shouldn't be the simple one. Portugal will probably get something involving vassals or corporations, while the straightforward civ will be something like Ethiopia or Vietnam.

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Please get back on topic and cease the personal finger pointing.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Specifically, although I'm not opposed to Portugal having a lot of naval trade-oriented features (even though--Spain's Treasury Fleet aside--I would much prefer Swahili take that role), these abilities just feel...esoteric? Redundant? I'm not sure what Portugal could or would want to do with relatively useless water tiles, and the LA seems like an attempt at being Victoria-but-not-Victoria but instead just being Dido-actually-Dido. Same with the ability to grab coastal territory, which is not only quite similar to Indonesia and Maori, but arguably OP if that means Portugal can just forward settle and steal coastal tiles from the other coastal civs.

Idunno. I appreciate the effort because it does give hope that Portugal won't, in fact, be terribly boring. But this particular build feels like it would need some tweaking, and may even be fundamentally incompatible with a game that already has so many civs which care about coastal tiles. I think its ability and agenda would necessarily need to be tied to trade routes, not coastal tiles. Which then brings up the issue of Wilhelmina, Peter, and again, Spain. The design space for Portugal at this point is so small now, guys, to the point that I feel kind of bad for whatever implementation we get (which is how I've felt for quite some time about Byzantium).

Something I thought of later is maybe Portuguese trade routes can gain gold for every water tile in the origin city, just like Mali does with desert. Maybe extra era score as well for discovering new continents and wonders to go with the "age of discovery." My idea is that I wanted them to explore around and grab up all the water tiles they could get to create a big ocean empire, which is why I decided that might be more fitting than just a simple trade route agenda. Maybe just traders grabbing water tiles wouldn't make them OP, instead of naval units as well.

At first glance it does seem like it's a bit of a mix and match with other Civs, but it seems more unique the closer that you look at it. And if they take your coastal tiles you can always go to war with them.

 

[gallowsCalibrator]

After thinking on it a bit, I do think Portugal could possibly work separately from Spain. If it were up to me, Spain's primary distinction would be an increased emphasis on extracting wealth from colonies and conquered territory through its Treasure Fleets, while Portugal would have a bit more focus on exploration and ("selfish"?) commerce. Abilities relating to a deeper use of trading posts and traders in general- possibly something themed around this concept?- could provide enough development space for Portugal to get its own niche. Here's a rough concept, for example:

Feitoria: A tile improvement unique to the Portuguese; may be constructed by [Naus / Carracks / Etc.] at the price of gold. Portugal may construct one Feitoria for every [number of] trade route slots they possess. Feitorias must be built on unclaimed or city-state territory adjacent to coast, and not adjacent to other Feitorias. Feitorias provide Portugal with all resources adjacent to them. If built in city-state territory, Portugal gains a trading post there. Portuguese naval units may heal when adjacent to a Feitoria.

The main idea I have in mind here is a 'light' colonial empire- you wouldn't quite conquer cities, moreso just grab a little of their territory and use it to push farther and farther out. This is a rough idea, of course- there'd probably be other ways to do this. One more quick note- I definitely wouldn't imagine this Portugal as having religious traits. Spain already has that covered, for sure. ;P

 

[Jkchart]

I picked the Big 5 missing:

• Babylon: The only OG civ still missing. I would kind of like them to either a) be a great science player like usual, but in a more unusual way, or b) find a cool new niche based on their history that we haven't touched in gameplay, possibly related to the Code of Laws by Hammurabi (loyalty? Free cities? Empire conquest?). A fusion of both, if we brought back Hammurabi, would be cool. I'm assuming that they would get an archer UU again, which is kind of iconic for them (but please go with the tradition of not naming things so generically like you've been doing so great at, Firaxis! Don't just go "bowman" and be done with it). As for the UB...Ziggurat is taken. Not sure I want to relive the "Walls of Babylon" in every city either. Perhaps something related to how cities were centered on the temple? Not sure.
• Byzantium: I know we can easily fold this one into Rome by making Justinian an alt-Rome leader...which I'd be okay with if they got a cool replacement. But otherwise, give me a WELL-DESIGNED Byz this game. Not that having an extra religion bonus wasn't cool, but that was it so if you didn't get one, after your classical UUs then you were SOL on uniqueness...give me a Hippodrome! Give me my Kataphraktoi! Or a medieval Dromon if you so choose. But just make Byz really cool. Perhaps go with Basil II? Bring back Theodora if you wish, I don't mind. Just...I want a well-designed Byzantium. I know I've said it three times, but the Civ V incarnation was underwhelming for me.
• Ethiopia: I can see a fun Russia-Inca cross here with emphasis on mountains and faith. There's a wealth of leader options too - Hailee Selassie, Menelik, Zara Yaqob, or as someone else suggested the warrior queen Yodit. Make them a religious civ super fun to play. All kinds of possibilities here.
• Maya: Okay...as fun as long count was...do something different here. The Mayans were master builders and astronomers. Super cool and interesting civ/culture. STILL a thriving culture in central America (though sadly oppressed). We also have the opportunity here as has been discussed on this forum to have a female native American leader - there's a few to choose from! Just ask @Zaarin Also, can we give them a better UU than III or V? I'm not a fan of the Atlatlist/Javelin Thrower. The Holkan would be a cool return though. Also, those Mayan Pyramids were the bomb and can stay.
• Portugal: First off, we have BRAZIL but not its former colonial master. Kind of silly if you ask me. Second, they usually refine the previous Xpack's features - water trade (and other "easy trade" tiles) got buffed/reworked, so I can see Portugal filling its Civ V niche here, possibly with a nice twist to it. I do hope that they bring back Feitorias, because those were cool. I'm fine with them bringing back the Carrack/Nau as a UU, but I'm holding out hope for Cacadores or Bandeirantes instead this time around...

I also went with the following 3 from your choices:

• Hittites: If I could see ONE civ that has appeared only ONCE return, this is one of my top 2 picks. The Hittites were one of the first superpowers (next to ancient Ebla, which is also fascinating, but I'm not sure how attested to they are - would be a cool city state!), could play nicely into the new strategic resource system, continue with being a wonderful science civ as well since they did have a number of advancements key to the development of early civilization. Bring Suppiluliuma I in here! I'm not sure we need another chariot UU, but the 3 Man chariot was a TANK in those times. They also I believe had excellent spearmen.
• Morocco/Moors: The other civ I would love to have return. North Africa is STILL unfilled (sort of - I know we have Phoenicia). It was such a welcome presence in Civ V; great opportunities for a different style of trade nation here. Morocco could also have nods to its military might in North Africa. i suggested Sayyida al-hurra, their pirate queen of Tetouan, at one point, but it looks like Barbary Corsairs are filled by Ottos now, so just bring back Ahmad al-Mansur. He's cool. And Kasbahs!
  
• Native American, not Navajo: I know everyone want's Navajo, but I kinda wanna see another off the wall choice like last game where they went with Shoshone, and this game with Cree/Mapuche. I would be happy with Navajo though, or a Shoshone/Sioux redux. Also, the nostalgia of Iroquois is something for consideration as well. But there are so many unique cultures we could go through, so I hope it's a total surprise.

 

[Frenrill]

What about the Inuits ? it will be fun to have a civilization who work only on ice and snow ..
I can imagine a gameply like , they can improve iceberg the would get special bonus on snow (Like +2 food 1 production) and like the Maori , they will get 1 more production when they discover a special tech...
they were only hunter so you could add like they can't build farm...it would be fun !

 

[The Kingmaker]

I picked the Big 5 missing:

• Babylon: The only OG civ still missing. I would kind of like them to either a) be a great science player like usual, but in a more unusual way, or b) find a cool new niche based on their history that we haven't touched in gameplay, possibly related to the Code of Laws by Hammurabi (loyalty? Free cities? Empire conquest?). A fusion of both, if we brought back Hammurabi, would be cool. I'm assuming that they would get an archer UU again, which is kind of iconic for them (but please go with the tradition of not naming things so generically like you've been doing so great at, Firaxis! Don't just go "bowman" and be done with it). As for the UB...Ziggurat is taken. Not sure I want to relive the "Walls of Babylon" in every city either. Perhaps something related to how cities were centered on the temple? Not sure.

Babylon should get a unique improvement instead of a unique building: the kudurru (or boundary stele).

Build it at the edge of your territory. It should provide a little “culture bomb” for grabbing resources or key strategic locations before your neighbors can get them.

Babylon should be a forward-settling fiend.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

The more I have thought about it, the more I am liking the idea that the Maya could be a contender for another Holy Site UD.

Because of Gathering Storm there can now be more than one type of UD as in the Cothon and the Royal Navy Dockyard.
Also the latest ones have unique architecture for their buildings.

In that case, I would love for the Maya to have their own unique shrine and temple architecture in a Holy Site UD, called a Pyramid Complex, instead of just making it unique to a singular building.

 

[gallowsCalibrator]

The more I have thought about it, the more I am liking the idea that the Maya could be a contender for another Holy Site UD.

Because of Gathering Storm there can now be more than one type of UD as in the Cothon and the Royal Navy Dockyard.
Also the latest ones have unique architecture for their buildings.

In that case, I would love for the Maya to have their own unique shrine and temple architecture in a Holy Site UD, called a Pyramid Complex, instead of just making it unique to a singular building.

That sounds pretty cool! The Pyramid Complex could also work as a Campus, too, right? They were centers of education in the empire as well, as far as I can recall. What kind of focus do you think the UD / Maya in general could have? I'd definitely love to see them return, but I'm not the best at drafting concepts myself admittedly.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

That sounds pretty cool! The Pyramid Complex could also work as a Campus, too, right? They were centers of education in the empire as well, as far as I can recall. What kind of focus do you think the UD / Maya in general could have? I'd definitely love to see them return, but I'm not the best at drafting concepts myself admittedly.

Making it a Holy Site works better, in my opinion, since shrines and temples were often found in these places. But at the same time I would let the buildings produce extra science as well as faith.

 

[monstercat]

Since I still yearn for a proper Babylon, I also have some ideas. My preference would be to have the Walls of Babylon as an ability that grants free Ancient Walls to any city. You would also have the Babylonian Ingenuity ability, which gives +15% Science and Great Scientist generation inside your Capital per Great Scientist ever recruited.

Hammurabi would lead Babylon, and would give them Code of Laws free from the start of the game, Governors in a city would provide +5% Science and +1 Loyalty per promotion they have.

I would prefer a Sabum Kibitum as a UU, replacing the Spearman, it would earn promotions faster, and earn Science on gaining a promotion, scaling with the level of promotion attained.

UB, not too sure, my only thought is the E-temenanki, replacement for the Shrine that provides additional Food and Culture to the City, and more bonus Food to the Capital.

Basically Babylon is a one-city science juggernaut, the UB helps with early growth and expansion, whilst the CUA protects Babylon from early rushes, then slowly they can ramp up their Capital's science and hoard all the Great Scientists in the game.

Thoughts?

Making it a Holy Site works better, in my opinion, since shrines and temples were often found in these places. But at the same time I would let the buildings produce extra science as well as faith.

I would also add the Mayan can perform a ritualistic sacrifice in their Holy Site, if a military unit is occupying it. This destroys the military unit, but generates a large quantity of on the spot Culture and Faith, scaling with Era and the sacrificed unit's Combat Strength.

 

[Zaarin]

E-temenanki

Sumerian name and was a specific ziggurat. I'm not sure it's the best choice.

I would also add the Mayan can perform a ritualistic sacrifice in their Holy Site, if a military unit is occupying it.

The Mayans certainly performed human sacrifices, but on the whole they were more into blood sacrifices and mutilation. Wholesale slaughter was more of an Aztec thing (as is already represented by turning captured units into workers and using worker charges to rush districts).

 

[Krajzen]

After reading about Babylonian history more, I think I'd prefer them to not appear this time and their slot going to somebody else.

Sumer is very close to them culturally and geographically (it even took obvious Babylonian UI - ziggurat). In the same time, Sumer also took Assyria niche of "extremely early ancient era conquest + science bonus". On top of that, Babylon is not that badly represented by city state - the city itself was huge metropolis and had vast cultural influence, but for most of its history Babylon as empire was in the shadow od Assyrian empires, with its own imperial periods being very short. That empire of Hammurabi? Collapsed soon after his death after like 50 years. Neo-Babylonian - same.


I really think that slot should go to some interesting civ from more underrepresented part of the world COUGH Maghreb COUGH, Babylon is really very similar to Sumer in all aspects. Assuming we are going to get Maya, Portugal, Byzantium, Ethiopia, Native Americans, Vietnam and Italy - I'd really dislike if the last slot went to Sumer 2.0, leaving North Africa empty.

In civ5 it was Morocco, with very "desert lifestyle" focus, and I disliked that (it also had very mediocre music) but that region offers so much more. You could make civs called Moors, Andalusia, Berbers, Algeria, Tunis, Mauritania, or once again Morocco, and really this area has so much historical depth it can fulfill any gameplay niche, from science through agriculture to navy.

I'd be really disappointed if among 50 civilizations we got Canada but not this