Poll: What new African civilizations would you like to see included in the franchise?

[tetley]

Indonesians migrated to Africa 1,300 years ago, and they were colonialized in Africa. And I'm looking at geographically where Madagascar sits. Yep, that is Africa.

 

[Patine]

Indonesians migrated to Africa 1,300 years ago, and they were colonialized in Africa. And I'm looking at geographically where Madagascar sits. Yep, that is Africa.

I think you missed my point. I'm saying Madagascar is very much an outlier, culturally and in much of historical image, to the bulk of Africa. It's "among the least unrepresentative," but I didn't say it wasn't geographically part of the continent.

 

[tetley]

I think you missed my point. I'm saying Madagascar is very much an outlier, culturally and in much of historical image, to the bulk of Africa.

Which makes it an awesome civ.

It's "among the least unrepresentative," but I didn't say it wasn't geographically part of the continent.

They literally are Africa. So by definition, they represent Africa.

 

[TahamiTsunami]

Which makes it an awesome civ.




They literally are Africa. So by definition, they represent Africa.

I'm pretty sure Patine's point is, although Madagascar is part of Africa, it doesn't represent as significant of a chunk of Africa (ethnically at least) as some of the other potential African civs out there. Now I wouldn't say that Madagascar can't be a civ because of that, since they are pretty unique and I think they'd be a fun choice.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

I enjoy a good wuxia film, but don't take them as historical. (Yes, some styles of gong fu are associated with the Wudang and Shaolin monasteries, but they were never military camps of any kind--and most such gong fu styles are chiefly physical or meditation exercises like taijiquan. Plus the whole mythos of Wudang and Shaolin got exaggerated by wuxia media like the novels of Jin Yong/Louis Cha.)

Yep I've grown up watching televised Louis Cha TV Shows, ones like The Condor Trilogy or House of Flying Daggers. And rivalties between Shaolin, Wudang, Wubai and The Sun and Moon Association. (Said to practice Mannealism, religion that originated in old Persia and once a rival to Christianity in Old Roma until Constantine chose Christ over Mannealists. The religion itself found a new home in Old China for some time and often critized by practitioners of Eastern Religions (Particularly those of Confucianist) as Satanist. (And in Louis Cha's view, he considered them 'evil' too)

 

[Patine]

Yep I've grown up watching televised Louis Cha TV Shows, ones like The Condor Trilogy or House of Flying Daggers. And rivalties between Shaolin, Wudang, Wubai and The Sun and Moon Association. (Said to practice Mannealism, religion that originated in old Persia and once a rival to Christianity in Old Roma until Constantine chose Christ over Mannealists. The religion itself found a new home in Old China for some time and often critized by practitioners of Eastern Religions (Particularly those of Confucianist) as Satanist. (And in Louis Cha's view, he considered them 'evil' too)

To be pedantic - Manichaeanism. It's often viewed as having grown from Zoroastrianism, the state religion of the Achaemenid, Parthian, and Sassasanid Dynasty Persian Empires, before the Islamic conquest - growing from it in a similar way that Christianity grew from Judaism or Buddhism grew from Hinduism.

 

[HumanMap]

In what era and under what leader. Somalia has traditionally had numerous coastal sultanates and clan-based groups in the hinterlands, but, in truth, only Said Haarawe, the President from the early '1960's to 1993 actually ruled all of Somalia under one unified government as one Somali leader. It has not happened in Somali history before - or after.

I guess it can be similar to Germany where leaders have been chosen to represent different time periods (thinking Barbarossa this time and Bismark Civ IV/V)

 

[Henri Christophe]

Oyo (Yoruba people) - I am so pleasantly surprised they are included in this poll. So underrated and unknown kingdom, even by Subsaharan standards. Nigeria in general has always been one of major civilization spots in Africa and one of most densely populated areas but people tend to only mention Hausa, Nok, Igbo or Benin. Yoruba people are higly urbanised, ancient, sophisticated culture with well organized decently sized (100 000km2) kingdom relying on heavy cavalry. They deny stereotypes so well. The only problem is, Oyo doesn't have (so far, in the Internet) any very well documented major leader figure, but we do have some minor data on names and leaders and in worst case we can go for mythological founders.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyo_Empire

´

Isn't true Oyo kingdom don't have well documented major leader, the problem some western historians don't accepted oral tradion as font of information, so when this persons write down the african history they told we don't have an history at all.
The mythological founder was Ododuwa, he can be a really cool leader, because it is praised as a good, like the first man in humanity, the one who created the earth.

But the third king of Oyo, for me, is the best option as leader is Shango (or Xangô in portuguese). He was so beloved by the Yoruba people then, when he died, he start to be praised as a good, and one of the most important, the good of Thunder and Fire (something as Thor or Tlaloc, most popular deity of their respective folk). Because the slavery trade Xangô is also praised as God in Brasil and Cuba.

Dahomey - It really, really should be a military city state instead. It was incredibly small (10 000km2, estimated 300 000 people) and it completely relied on a slave trade which isn't exactly the proudest accomplishment.

It's right, that kingdom have the most important rowl in the Slave Trade in XIX century, and I don't understand why we can't be proud of that? Why a slavery empire as Brazil or USA is all right to have in this game, but a black slavery kingdoom is a rason to be shame? I know white people don't like to remember that much about slavery, and that is why this game untill yet doesn't have nothing about that. But our history was as it was.
Also Dahomey is the birthland of the Voodoo, the african religion who arrived where french colonized as Lousiana and Haiti. And as their leader I want to suggest the king Ghezo 1818 - 1858, because he was the one who change the equilibrium of power in west africa, before him they was Oyo-Vasals, and after him they become a real empire.

Side note: Dahomey and Brazil had really good relationship, Dahomey was the first nation to recognize the Independence of Brazil and both empires fall in the same year because the end of slavery.

Glad to see a poll for the African civs as well! Here are my choices:
- Ndongo / Angola: Definitely notable for being the strongest of the Kongo's vassals and Ana Nzinga.

Ndongo wasn't a Kongo vassal, they was a free kingdom. And Angola isn't tha same thing as Ndongo. Angola can be translated as king but also is the name of the Portuguese kingdom who the capital was Luanda. Around ~1600 we can spoke about 4 kingdoms in this area: Angola, Kongo, Ndongo and Matamba. The well know queen Ana Jinga was queen of the Ndongo by heritage and queen of Matamba by mariage.

 

[Patine]

´

Isn't true Oyo kingdom don't have well documented major leader, the problem some western historians don't accepted oral tradion as font of information, so when this persons write down the african history they told we don't have an history at all.
The mythological founder was Ododuwa, he can be a really cool leader, because it is praised as a good, like the first man in humanity, the one who created the earth.

But the third king of Oyo, for me, is the best option as leader is Shango (or Xangô in portuguese). He was so beloved by the Yoruba people then, when he died, he start to be praised as a good, and one of the most important, the good of Thunder and Fire (something as Thor or Tlaloc, most popular deity of their respective folk). Because the slavery trade Xangô is also praised as God in Brasil and Cuba.

Civ iterations pretty much moved away from leaders who were themselves deities, or at least highly mythologized figures, moreso than solid historical figures, after Civ2, to be honest.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Civ iterations pretty much moved away from leaders who were themselves deities, or at least highly mythologized figures, moreso than solid historical figures, after Civ2, to be honest.

More or less, Have Gilgamesh in Civ 6 and Haile Selassie in Civ 5... Both was historical figures and was praised as god.

 

[Patine]

More or less, Have Gilgamesh in Civ 6 and Haile Selassie in Civ 5... Both was historical figures and was praised as god.

I've always opposed Gilgamesh's inclusion, and considered it a mistake. Sargon the Great would have been much more appropriate for that slot. And, Haile Selassie a historical leader who actually existed - within the lifetime of many living today - and was NOT deified by his own people, but by a religion in a foreign country across the world, and not at his own instigation.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I've always opposed Gilgamesh's inclusion, and considered it a mistake. Sargon the Great would have been much more appropriate for that slot.

So you would have rather the Akkadian Empire, or are you saying that Sargon should have lead Sumeria?

 

[Patine]

So you would have rather the Akkadian Empire, or are you saying that Sargon should have lead Sumeria?

Sumer and Akkadia were very historically intertwined, and, given that Sumer has next to no leaders much is known on at all, or may be like Agamemnon, Dido, Romulus, Ayar Manco, Yao the Last of the Five Pre-Dynastic Chinese Emperors, Arthur Pendragon, Jimmu Tenno, or even Gilgamesh, and likely didn't exist and were purely mythological, or may have bee much more mundane and less dramatic figures, but became mythologized and built up in "tales that got taller in the telling," I'd rather a leader from the era (and Gilgamesh's portrayal in game shows a mixed Sumerian-Akkadian influence anyways) for whom even a modicum of history supports.

 

[Henri Christophe]

I've always opposed Gilgamesh's inclusion, and considered it a mistake. Sargon the Great would have been much more appropriate for that slot. And, Haile Selassie a historical leader who actually existed - within the lifetime of many living today - and was NOT deified by his own people, but by a religion in a foreign country across the world, and not at his own instigation.

I don't understand that much about Bronze age civilizations, as I know is inpossible to know if Gilgamesh was a god or just a king, but of course he was praised as god after his death. Acctualy that was really comun. The Pharaos of Egypt or the Sapa Incas of Tawantisuyu (Inca Empire) also praise their dead kings.

West african kingdom also praised their dead kings as god, but Shango have a more interesting point because, as Haile Selassie, he is praised not by own people, but by a 3 religions in a foreign country, in a foreign continent. The Santeria in Cuba, and 2 afro religions in Brasil called Candomblé and the other called Umbanda.

 

[Patine]

I don't understand that much about Bronze age civilizations, as I know is inpossible to know if Gilgamesh was a god or just a king, but of course he was praised as god after his death. Acctualy that was really comun. The Pharaos of Egypt or the Sapa Incas of Tawantisuyu (Inca Empire) also praise their dead kings.

West african kingdom also praised their dead kings as god, but Shango have a more interesting point because, as Haile Selassie, he is praised not by own people, but by a 3 religions in a foreign country, in a foreign continent. The Santeria in Cuba, and 2 afro religions in Brasil called Candomblé and the other called Umbanda.

But in Haile Selassie's case, it's not truly relevant. Philip Mountbatten, Duke of Edinburgh, Prince Consort of the United Kingdom, is revered as a God by a religion in Vanuatu. Again, immaterial to my point. I'm referring to leaders where they are known enough about as HISTORICAL leaders in their own right, versus ones whom are thoroughly mythologized, that they may possibly not have even existed, and if they did, their true history is so obscured with legendry as to leave any real story indicernable.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Ashanti - seems like a good representative for the variety of mini-empires that rose and fell in coastal West Africa

Madagascar - Ranavelona I was a shrewd but slightly crazy queen who gladly accepted European technology but not their christianity.

Aksum - a version of Ethiopia looking back a little farther than usual

Nigeria - we need some modern African representation

Other - Angola. I recently read Anne Theriault's Longread essay on Ana Njinga and seriously. We need a lady with a battleaxe around here.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Ashanti - seems like a good representative for the variety of mini-empires that rose and fell in coastal West Africa

I tottaly agree, the west-african slave kingdoms don't have any represetation in this game. It's seen as this game is shame about this moment of our history. Of course slavery was a bad thing, but it's happens and why just hide the africans kingdons and the Brazil and USA, who rise with slavery, don't need to be hided? to be shame of?

Nigeria - we need some modern African representation

Nigeria don't have any cool leader, and also don't will survive as a country for the next 100 years. The best way to represent the Nigerians is doing the Yoruba civilization who also fit with the west-african slavery kingdoms who has any represention in this game untill now.

My vote to a modern Africa state is Uganda, just because Idi Amin, who have the charisma needed to be a civ leader
And also Uganda have a pre-colonial heritage to use as Unique Units and things as that, Nigeria is just a "Niger Area" who united so different nations in just one country and they don't have nothing in common to be an Unique Feature.

Other - Angola. I recently read Anne Theriault's Longread essay on Ana Njinga and seriously. We need a lady with a battleaxe around here.

I read the book write down by Linda M. Heywood, in that book she speak a great difference between Angola and the Kingdom of Ndongo, where Ana Jinga was queen, as Linda said, the Angola is the Portuguese kingdoom who the capital is Luanda.
Ndongo never was a great kingdom, but as Ana Jinga was an amazing woman, this kingdom deserve be part of this game just because her. She become queen when the Portuguese was in full expansion in the area, she lost her kingdom, escape to another kingdom called Matamba, she married the king of Matamba, become the Queen their, than invaded again her rightful kingdom of Ndongo, re-conquer her land and avoid the Portuguese expansion untill her death when she was almost 80 years old. And other amazing thing, as the Portuguese don't like her, she make contact direct with the Pope by letters, that way she was responsible to the christianization of this part of the world by her self, without Portuguese influency.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I tottaly agree, the west-african slave kingdoms don't have any represetation in this game. It's seen as this game is shame about this moment of our history. Of course slavery was a bad thing, but it's happens and why just hide the africans kingdons and the Brazil and USA, who rise with slavery, don't need to be hided? to be shame of?


Nigeria don't have any cool leader, and also don't will survive as a country for the next 100 years. The best way to represent the Nigerians is doing the Yoruba civilization who also fit with the west-african slavery kingdoms who has any represention in this game untill now.

My vote to a modern Africa state is Uganda, just because Idi Amin, who have the charisma needed to be a civ leader
And also Uganda have a pre-colonial heritage to use as Unique Units and things as that, Nigeria is just a "Niger Area" who united so different nations in just one country and they don't have nothing in common to be an Unique Feature.


I read the book write down by Linda M. Heywood, in that book she speak a great difference between Angola and the Kingdom of Ndongo, where Ana Jinga was queen, as Linda said, the Angola is the Portuguese kingdoom who the capital is Luanda.
Ndongo never was a great kingdom, but as Ana Jinga was an amazing woman, this kingdom deserve be part of this game just because her. She become queen when the Portuguese was in full expansion in the area, she lost her kingdom, escape to another kingdom called Matamba, she married the king of Matamba, become the Queen their, than invaded again her rightful kingdom of Ndongo, re-conquer her land and avoid the Portuguese expansion untill her death when she was almost 80 years old. And other amazing thing, as the Portuguese don't like her, she make contact direct with the Pope by letters, that way she was responsible to the christianization of this part of the world by her self, without Portuguese influency.

The word Angola is a Portuguese interpretation of Ngola, the title of king that Ana Njinga usurped from her brother. Given Firaxis' naming standards*, Angola would be what they use.

*Firaxis seems to prefer to use the name of the modern country when dealing with civs that are not European or European-adjacent. Example: Indonesia instead of Majapahit.

 

[Henri Christophe]

The word Angola is a Portuguese interpretation of Ngola, the title of king that Ana Njinga usurped from her brother. Given Firaxis' naming standards*, Angola would be what they use.

*Firaxis seems to prefer to use the name of the modern country when dealing with civs that are not European or European-adjacent. Example: Indonesia instead of Majapahit.

Unfortunately I need to agree
One other problem with using the modern name Angola is, the Kongo kingdom also was inside the modern boarders of Angola country, at leats most of the Kongo kingdom and just a small part of they are in nowadays Congo. Ndongo is a name way better for this civ , but Firaxis, as you said, still eurocentric

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

*Firaxis seems to prefer to use the name of the modern country when dealing with civs that are not European or European-adjacent. Example: Indonesia instead of Majapahit.

That hasn't necessarily been the case for most of Africa.
We got Nubia instead of Sudan and we've always got the Zulu without calling them South Africa.
And for Asia we got the Khmer instead of Cambodia.
The latter two names are definitely probably more well known though even to non history lovers.