Poll: Which of these battles have you heard of? Mod needed.

[Traitorfish]

Except for that minor state called Athens. You know, one of the world's first democracies.

Athens wasn't really as democratic as it would've liked to think- only free male Athenians could vote, which was a definite minority of the population, even the male population. It was certainly proto-democratic, of course, but then, so was Sparta.

 

[Dachs]

A few hundred votes in Athens is more than could be had in the entirety of the Persian Empire.

 

[Kraznaya]

Well, Otanes did advocate democracy, but any semblance of it was pushed out with the coronation of Darius I.

And I disagree with the comment about Athenian Democracy being similar to Sparta's government, Athens was far more accepting of other people as citizens than Sparta was.

 

[shortguy]

Well, Otanes did advocate democracy, but any semblance of it was pushed out with the coronation of Darius I.

Only if you actually buy what Herodotus said on the issue. I'm disinclined to accept his account here.

 

[Traitorfish]

And I disagree with the comment about Athenian Democracy being similar to Sparta's government, Athens was far more accepting of other people as citizens than Sparta was.

All I said was that Athens and Sparta both had proto-democratic governments, and they did. I didn't say that they were any more similar than that.

 

[Kraznaya]

Only if you actually buy what Herodotus said on the issue. I'm disinclined to accept his account here.

Well, its likely that with the Greek influence (such as the recent conquest of Ionia) would have some people advocating limited democratic governments. Perhaps Otanes was influenced by them.

 

[ohcrapitsnico]

Hmmm what ever happened to the first bill of rights made by cyrus????

Seriously Athens was not a democracy in any way, slaves does not equal democracy. The only thing worse than being cruel oppressors is being hypocritical about it.

 

[Kraznaya]

Hmmm what ever happened to the first bill of rights made by cyrus????

Seriously Athens was not a democracy in any way, slaves does not equal democracy. The only thing worse than being cruel oppressors is being hypocritical about it.

It was a limited democracy in which citizens vote. In that way it is sort of an oligarchy, yet the Western Democracies and Constitutional Monarchies didn't allow slaves and women to vote before early 1900's and still declared themselves as such.

Cyrus gets a good rap because he freed the Jews from Babylon, but the fact is the number of people the Persians oppresed and kept as slaves and as an underclass was many times the population of Greece itself.

 

[Ozbenno]

Heard of...

1. D-day
2. Monte Casino
3. Austerlitz
4. Waterloo
5. Marathon
9. Dien Bien Phu
11. Teutobergald Forest
12. The Seige of Constantinople
15. Seige of Tenochtitlan
16. Seige of Vienna
17. Battle of Hastings
18. Lexington and Concord
19. Trafalger
21. Stalingrad
22. Malta
23. The Alamo

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

8. The Battle of the Red Cliffs
13. 'Ain Jalut

All but these. But Red Cliffs does ring a bell a bit, just can't remember what exactly.

 

[Traitorfish]

All but these. But Red Cliffs does ring a bell a bit, just can't remember what exactly.

It occurred during the Three Kingdoms period- it's also known as the Battle of Chi Bi- which has appeared in quite a lot of media, particularly video games. Maybe you've seen in Dynasty Warriors or something like that?

 

[Dachs]

Larry Gonick drew part of it - also the "Battle of Red Bluff(s)" - in his epic Cartoon History of the Universe, which other than being vaguely anti-European is incredibly entertaining.

And again, 'Ain Jalut was the Mongols and the Crusaders getting whipped by Baibars' Mamluks. Pretty much signified the end of Mongol danger to the Middle East.

 

[Virote_Considon]

but the fact is the number of people the Persians oppresed and kept as slaves and as an underclass was many times the population of Greece itself.

They weren't slaves. They were more like serfs, I.E. they were free to do as they pleased, but they had to offer some of their crops/livestock/skills to the governor/shah as "tribute". Much like a medieval European state.

 

[Traitorfish]

They weren't slaves. They were more like serfs, I.E. they were free to do as they pleased, but they had to offer some of their crops/livestock/skills to the governor/shah as "tribute". Much like a medieval European state.

Well, the situation you describe isn't so much serfdom as tenancy- serfs did, in fact, have some restrictions on their freedom, but you're correct to say that it did not equate to serfdom. First and foremost, serfs were bound to land, not an individual, had legal rights, albeit less than a free citizen, and were not treated as property under the law.

 

[Maniacal]

1. D-day
2. Monte Casino
4. Waterloo
5. Marathon
6. Thermophilae
9. Dien Bien Phu
12. The Seige of Constantinople
15. Seige of Tenochtitlan
16. Seige of Vienna
17. Battle of Hastings
19. Trafalger
21. Stalingrad
22. Malta
23. The Alamo

Most of them.