Popular protests in the EU

Unrest at French universities after student sets himself alight over debts



The guilty parties of course paing this as "violence". Oh my. They should arrest this student for arson...



Of course it is "violence" when someone dares protest poverty in any way that inconveniences important people and makes the news. More so if those are cowardlings who crow about "democracy" while running away from any confrontation with critics!

I guess that when the important people have the police dutifully shoot the students out of the street, or the university... that will be "dialogue"! Just like they dialogued with the yellow vests citizens, one kind of dialogue remarkable for producing a number of blind and dead people.

They didn't win then. The anger from the rising poverty and precariety is still brewing.

To play the Devil's Advocate here, I'm not sure how productive trying have a dialogue with groups of people chanting maledictions, calling for your assassination, and advocating the overthrow of your government and the collapse of your economic system and replacement with something that seems alluring on the surface to young students, but didn't quite work so well in other countries a few decades ago, from the get go, would actually meaningfully be in terms of progress or accomplishment.
 
Oh, you were there and heard all that? You could believe that Hollande fled for his life even though he claimed he had 1000 students waiting to listen to him, never mind how many bodyguards?

Those had to have been 50 well-armed and very intimidating protesters! I mean, they were armed with a torn book, scary!
 
Oh, you were there and heard all that? You could believe that Hollande fled for his life even though he claimed he had 1000 students waiting to listen to him, never mind how many bodyguards?

Those had to have been 50 well-armed and very intimidating protesters! I mean, they were armed with a torn book, scary!

I didn't say his LIFE WAS LEGIMTATELY THREATENED. I was just saying it's not likely anything meaningful could have been discussed while such tempers, frustrations, and passions were at a fevered pitch from the start. It was not a time and place where anything could have been hammered out. Such dialogue should happen, yes, but under better conditions so powerful emotions by students, and disdainful attitudes by government officials can be mitigated somewhat. As a social workers in RL, I know how this works, and as such, I am not unsympathetic to the students, either.

Edit: Corrected REALLY bad typo.
 
What has this turmoil in France to do with the heading of this thread "popular protests" ?

Popular protests are for me protests with many ordinary people.
 
I didn't say his LIFE WAS LEGIMTATELY THREATENED. I was just saying it's not likely anything meaningful could have been discussed while such tempers, frustrations, and passions were at a fevered pitch from the start. It was not a time and place where anything could have been hammered out. Such dialogue should happen, yes, but under better conditions so powerful emotions by students, and disdainful attitudes by government officials can be mitigated somewhat. As a social workers in RL, I know how this works, and as such, I am not unsympathetic to the students, either.

I'd say that it is no different from Boris Johnson fleeing protests in Luxembourg by expatriated british remainders. Which was, rightfully, described as a cowardly exit. At least he didn't accuse them of violence.

@Hrothbern: a mere student (a poor one at that) setting himself on fire over poverty and totally bleat prospects in like is an irrelevance, mere turmoil? I'm not sure that ordinary people there will agree...

Such "turmoil" is known to have toppled governments elsewhere. But I'm sure you hope that won't be the case.
 
I'd say that it is no different from Boris Johnson fleeing protests in Luxembourg by expatriated british remainders. Which was, rightfully, described as a cowardly exit. At least he didn't accuse them of violence.

@Hrothbern: a mere student (a poor one at that) setting himself on fire over poverty is an irrelevance, mere turmoil? I'm not sure that ordinary people there will agree...

You evade my point.

This is a thread on popular protests
meaning protests like the gilet jaunes where hundreds of thousands ordinary people took to the streets. engaging themselves in public protest

That is absolutely something else than a for many people gruesome event.
When because of this event many thousands of ordinary people will protest on the streets it would fit in this thread
But that did (so far) not happen
 
I'd say that it is no different from Boris Johnson fleeing protests in Luxembourg by expatriated british remainders. Which was, rightfully, described as a cowardly exit. At least he didn't accuse them of violence.

@Hrothbern: a mere student (a poor one at that) setting himself on fire over poverty and totally bleat prospects in like is an irrelevance, mere turmoil? I'm not sure that ordinary people there will agree...

Such "turmoil" is known to have toppled governments elsewhere. But I'm sure you hope that won't be the case.
You evade my point.

This is a thread on popular protests
meaning protests like the gilet jaunes where hundreds of thousands ordinary people took to the streets. engaging themselves in public protest

That is absolutely something else than a for many people gruesome event.
When because of this event many thousands of ordinary people will protest on the streets it would fit in this thread
But that did (so far) not happen

The next round of the "Battle of the Euro Bears" on CivFanatics OT has begun!
 
I wonder what people who pay exorbitant sums of money to smugglers while literally risking their life to even get to Europe think of this... ahem... ashflake's act of protest.
 
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...

What has this turmoil in France to do with the heading of this thread "popular protests" ?

Popular protests are for me protests with many ordinary people.
The point of this thread is of course just to have a CFC-OT version of Hate Week for Inno to enjoy himself. However, there's still useful topics here.

If it helps, just think of the thread title as «More jumping-off points for hating on the EU».

Coming back to the original topic of this thread, I find it interesting how the „Grand débat national“ of Macron was seemingly a succes and how the refusal of the „gilets jaunes“ to engage in it somehow seemed to delegitimate them (or is my impression wrong). Just shows that what Europe really needs is more ways for citizens (and non-citizens) to engage themselves, be they direct democratic, participative, representative or federalistic tools.
How did it ever turn out with the gilets jaunes and the grand debate anyway? I haven't heard of either for months. Nor any results from them.

I wonder what people who pay exorbitant sums of money to smugglers while literally risking their life to even get to Europe think of this... ahem... ashflake's act of protest.
There's always gonna be some worse parts in the world, but that doesn't invalidate any struggles of feelings of hardship for individuals.

By itself this is an interesting topic:

- How much do students have for living while studying? Should they have more/less?
- How are they financed? Loans? Subsidies? Stipends? Do they, and if so, how and when do they have to pay it back?
- Is the situation for students worse today than before? When was it at its best?

In Norway, at least, university is free (there's a €50 semester fee to the student union), and students get a cheap government loan to cover living expenses. If they pass their exams, up to 30% of the loan is turned into a stipend instead (for 30 credits a semester).

This loan is about €490/month and used to be only paid out for 10 of the 12 months (not paid out during the summer months) however, which made it difficult for some students to make ends meet. It was increased to 11 months a year or so ago, iirc, which probably helped. Except for that, the student loans have not kept up with inflation for decades, so only living on what one is afforded by the state now puts students below the poverty line. This again means that students have to be helped by their parents or similar, or hold a job. Nothing bad about working as such, but the state is continually clear that it expects people to be full-time students, and that doesn't mesh well with students also having to work to make ends meet.

So in total my understanding is that it was better and easier to be a student in Norway in, say, the 80s, than it is nowadays.

Putting oneself on fire for just having €450/month (or having nothing?) to live on seems rather extreme, so I expect the person in question also had some mental struggles. Still, I don't really know much about the student situation in the rest of Europe. Is it worse than before? Better? Should it be better?
 
I wonder what people who pay exorbitant sums of money to smugglers while literally risking their life to even get to Europe think of this... ahem... ashflake's act of protest.

On the same logic, I wonder why so many migrants into Europe seem to remain desperate to cross the channel into England, instead o of staying in France. Don't they read he predictions of doom for he UK as it voted for brexit and entered the process of leaving? That they are already supposed to be economically withering?

Why do so many risk (and often lose!) their lives trying to reach it specifically?

@Cheetah:

On student loans, i think that the situation in Europe is worsening. But it is not just the loans, the difficulty with sustaining oneself while studying. It's several other facts combined:

1. You're virtually unemployable in any job regarded as "good", thrown into competing with immigrants for temporary jobs, if you cannot make it into a university education.
2. Cost of living in major cites, including those cities with universities, has risen much faster than incomes. Landlords in particular are squeezing people for everything that can be squeezed. The EU, with zero razes but no monetization of public debt, chose the path of real estate speculation and the price is being paid by the poorer portion of its population.
3. "Flexible labour rules", which mean the generalized scrapping of labour protections, has made younger people hopeless of ever finding stability. This effect is notorious in the fall of formation of households, of the birth rate.

You are privileged to live in a country that has not yet suffered much of these three effects. The are many millions of people living with no hope of a better future for themselves. That is soul crushing. Which, I believe, is an intended effect.
 
...

Putting oneself on fire for just having €450/month to live on seems rather extreme, so I expect the person in question also had some mental struggles. Still, I don't really know much about the student situation in the rest of Europe. Is it worse than before? Better? Should it be better?

450 euros/month are actually a serious amount for many in this glorious Eu. I am not getting how you arrived at the "also had some mental struggles" conclusion; could it not be that his mental struggles were 'just' about not having enough money to sort of keep existing?
 
450 euros/month are actually a serious amount for many in this glorious Eu. I am not getting how you arrived at the "also had some mental struggles" conclusion; could it not be that his mental struggles were 'just' about not having enough money to sort of keep existing?
Well, as I said, €450/month isn't terribly much less than what Norwegian students get to sustain themselves, and I'm generally informed that Norway is up in the top when it comes to cost of living in Europe. Still, self-immolation is practically unheard of here -- and it's not common anywhere else in Europe either. Living on less than €500/month isn't luxurious, but by sharing homes with others it tends to work.

So yes, I'd certainly say there were some extraneous causes involved. Most likely mental health issues.

On the same logic, I wonder why so many migrants into Europe seem to remain desperate to cross the channel into England, instead o of staying in France. Don't they read he predictions of doom for he UK as it voted for brexit and entered the process of leaving? That they are already supposed to be economically withering?

Why do so many risk (and often lose!) their lives trying to reach it specifically?
That's mostly cause of existing family there, English being more widely known, and/or the UK being easier to live and work illegally in, isn't it? I.e. people go where they have better opportunities?

On student loans, i think that the situation in Europe is worsening. But it is not just the loans, the difficulty with sustaining oneself while studying. It's several other facts combined:

1. You're virtually unemployable in any job regarded as "good", thrown into competing with immigrants for temporary jobs, if you cannot make it into a university education.
2. Cost of living in major cites, including those cities with universities, has risen much faster than incomes. Landlords in particular are squeezing people for everything that can be squeezed. The EU, with zero razes but no monetization of public debt, chose the path of real estate speculation and the price is being paid by the poorer portion of its population.
3. "Flexible labour rules", which mean the generalized scrapping of labour protections, has made younger people hopeless of ever finding stability. This effect is notorious in the fall of formation of households, of the birth rate.

You are privileged to live in a country that has not yet suffered much of these three effects. The are many millions of people living with no hope of a better future for themselves. That is soul crushing. Which, I believe, is an intended effect.
We should try to keep our topics clear, I think. Your first point goes more to the real/perceived need of getting a university degree these days, and not on the difficulty of sustaining oneself while studying. Same with the third point, I'd say.

On the second point, I agree that the cost of living when it comes to rent has increased faster than other costs. This is very unfortunate and has many causes, most of them willed. So for this reason alone it would be reasonable to expect financial support for students to have increased. I'm, not surprisingly I'm sure, not following your argument that this can be blamed on the EU, however. It seems to be a general trend throughout the world, from Japan, Korea, and China in the east, to the US, Canada, and Mexico in the west. With or without the EU, the neoliberal policies have been in charge for the last four decades or so. There's no reason to assume that entering or leaving the EU or its Single Market will make much difference (for the UK, there might be a difference in getting Corbyn as a PM, but again, the vast majority of his policies can be achieved while remaining in the EU as well).

Talking about work in general, it's true that university degrees have been touted as the most important piece to having a good life. Though while there's certainly something to it, skilled tradesmen can still make quite a lot of money. At least in Norway (and the other Nordic countries, and also Germany, afaik) these only require a four-year vocational high school diploma, and for many, the pay can be comparable to what others can get with a bachelour degree.

Not that this is a perfect situation, but I just like to point out that there are alternatives which do not require major political upheavals, and which can make life better for many.

As for labour rules, they need to be strengthened. Especially the rules surrounding part time work and the «gig» economy.
 
How did it ever turn out with the gilets jaunes and the grand debate anyway? I haven't heard of either for months. Nor any results from them.
Just saw a short report on NRK (Norwegian BBC):

«This morning police in Paris used tear gas against Yellow-vest protesters. At least 24 people were arrested by the police after protestors gathered near the metro stations Porte de Champerret and Place d'Itale. This happened without provocations from the protestors.»

So it's still ongoing then.
 
If you have to rent, there is obviously no way you will be living on 450 euros/month. Even if you rent some 20 m^2 hole in some basement, and eat as little as possible, it will be difficult to pay for power and other bills. Sometimes mental health issues are caused by not having enough money to sustain yourself. But sure, you may pretend it would be cool to live in Norway with 450 euro/ month - unless you mean that you have your own flat on the side and just pretend to be a member of the proletariat.
Furthermore, isn't the story that the cool state took even that miserable 450 euro from him?
So now he had to live with roughly 0 euros/month. I don't think you should make light of his self-immolation by arguing it was because he was crazy, when he clearly meant the action as a rather brutal FU to the state.
 
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I wonder what people who pay exorbitant sums of money to smugglers while literally risking their life to even get to Europe think of this... ahem... ashflake's act of protest.
The implication being that if we can find any one human being on the earth more prepared to accept equal or inferior living standards, then any complaints about those living standards are, if not void, then significantly diminished?

Would you apply this reasoning to, for instance, the Soviet regime in Estonia?
 
Cost of entry in universities here is ~150 euros (unless you have a scholarship based on your parents' income, in which case it's free), and you have to add the healthcare fee if you're over 18 (around 200 euros).

But the main problem is the cost of housing in Paris and Lyon. A scholarship of 450 euros will barely get you a shared appartment in the suburbs of the largest cities. A friend of mine lives not far away from where I live in the suburbs of Paris, in a shared appartment, in an area renowned for being cheap despite reasonable public transit access, and still pays around 500 euros in rent. I assume that rent around Lyon or other large cities is almost as bad. And then you have to add all the other necessary expenses.
So as a student you have to add to your studies a part time job. And that may not be enough. Many people fail one of their university years due to these constraints.

I'll also note that in this specific case, the student lost his 450 euros scholarship.
 
@Traitorfish
Self-immolation is not "complaining".
It is an action of someone who is experiencing serious mental issues... which is why its value as a political statement is "significantly diminished" indeed and why this story is very poorly suited to this thread.
 
I'll also note that in this specific case, the student lost his 450 euros scholarship.
What's the limit for not having to pay the entry fee? How many people does it affect?

And what's the healthcare fee?? That sounds like the US, not Europe.

And do you know why he lost the scholarship? What are the rules for that? In Norway everyone who goes to an accredited institution has the right to at least get the cheap loan, but only for the first seven years of higher education. And as I've said, if one passes the exams, 30% is turned into scholarship. The loan only needs to be paid back once the student gets a job earning above a certain amount.
 
The limit depends on many things, like do your parents have other children then you, are they also students, do they live far away etc... If your parents' yearly income is 35k, if you're an only child you have to pay the fee and can't have a scholarship, if you have 2 other siblings in uni and live more than 30km away from campus you don't pay the fee and get a 250 euro per month scholarship.
A 450 euro scholarship means a level 5 one which is really high.

As a student you're not supposed to be working, so you're supposed to contribute to healthcare via this 200 euro yearly contribution. If you have a scholarship you don't pay it.

He lost the scholarship because he failed his second year twice. Probably because he had to work alongside his studies.

@Yeekim serious mental issues because the system destroyed him.
 
@Traitorfish
Self-immolation is not "complaining".
It is an action of someone who is experiencing serious mental issues... which is why its value as a political statement is "significantly diminished" indeed and why this story is very poorly suited to this thread.
That's fair, in itself. But it wasn't the sentiment of the comment I was responding to.
 
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