Popular protests in the EU

[Lexicus]

It is an action of someone who is experiencing serious mental issues... which is why its value as a political statement is "significantly diminished" indeed and why this story is very poorly suited to this thread.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi

But the same logic can't apply to the EU because reasons

 

[Yeekim]

He lost the scholarship because he failed his second year twice. Probably because he had to work alongside his studies.

@Yeekim serious mental issues because the system destroyed him

Estonia has free university education. Regardless, 2 out of 3 students are working, on average over 30 hours a week, to support themselves.
I am working full time while also doing 2nd year of a master's degree. My grades would qualify me for scholarship, but it is some ridiculous amount like 100€/month, so I have not applied.
In which paradise unknown to me do students get free education AND large enough scholarship sufficient to live on all by itself?

 

[Traitorfish]

Estonia has free university education. Regardless, 2 out of 3 students are working, on average over 30 hours a week, to support themselves.
I am working full time while also doing 2nd year of a master's degree. My grades would qualify me for scholarship, but it is some ridiculous amount like 100€/month, so I have not applied.
In which paradise unknown to me do students get free education AND large enough scholarship sufficient to live on all by itself?

Yeekim circa 1300: "Wherebe yon wonderous Eden wherefor ye humble serf may have both turnip AND barleycorn 'pon solsticetide?"

 

[Yeekim]

Yeekim circa 1300: "Wherebe yon wonderous Eden wherefor ye humble serf may have both turnip AND barleycorn 'pon solsticetide?"

Ok, I chuckled.
But seriously, there's a difference between saying "we wish for (even) better life" and "our life is so unbearable our best and only escape is to set ourselves alight".

 

[Hrothbern]

Can you borrow from the State at cheap conditions (in France, UK, else) as student ?

Worst case in NL is that you borrow from the state all cost of living (maxed borrowing depending on details 800-1000 euro per month)
You have to pay that back (since the 2018 new rules) in 35 years. The interest rate for the next 5 years is 0.00 % and this is changed when state interest changes (losely coupled to bond rates).

When your income after your study is low, your max monthly payback is adapted and residual debt after 35 years remitted.

Here is the government calculator site for students where they can calculate how much to pay per month when they work as function of income:
https://www.duo.nl/apps/rekenhulp-terugbetalen/index.html#/terugbetalend/draagkracht

For example if you would have a study debt of 50,000 Euro when finished (and are single household):
(I used that rather high 50k debt to show that there is nothing really to worry about. It is also so that this study debt is (by law) not registred at the national debt registration)

At a gross before income tax year income of 20,000 Euro you should pay 119 Euro per month, but you do not need to pay, because you income is too low.
At 30,000 gross income per year you pay 32 Euro per month (instead of that 119).
At 40,000 gross income per year you pay 65 Euro per month (instead of that 119)
At 50,000 gross income per year you pay 98 Euro per month (instead of that 119)
At 56,000 gross income per year you have reached the break even where you pay 119 Euro per month.
Average gross income in NL for a fulltime job is approx 44,000 per year.
Average gross income people that have done a university education is approx 50,000.
=> If you end up the rest of your life unemployed you pay back zero.
=>=> The State is taking the risk.

Now... I know (from my daughters at that students age) that many young people here feel really burdened by that feeling of a mill stone around their necks from that debt. But they shouldn't.

EDIT
Oh... and WHO is paying for all that ???
Well... if you have a progressive income tax system, whereby higher incomes pay higher income tax, the people that benefitted from their high education pay with their on average higher income and higher income tax pay the risk.

 

[Lexicus]

But seriously, there's a difference between saying "we wish for (even) better life" and "our life is so unbearable our best and only escape is to set ourselves alight".

So I repeat, are you prepared to say that the example I gave is a purely individual case and in no way reflective of the hopeless political situation in Tunisia?

 

[Yeekim]

So I repeat, are you prepared to say that the example I gave is a purely individual case and in no way reflective of the hopeless political situation in Tunisia?

The example you gave led to a revolution and fall of Tunisian government within weeks.
This reaction to this individual event is what adequately reflects the (previous) situation in Tunisia.

 

[Lexicus]

The example you gave led to a revolution and fall of Tunisian government within weeks.
This reaction to this individual event is what adequately reflects the (previous) situation in Tunisia.

You're sidestepping the point. Unsurprising because that argument you made was obviously a check you can't cash.

 

[Yeekim]

You're sidestepping the point. Unsurprising because that argument you made was obviously a check you can't cash.

Which point? You trying to equate two events with superficial similarities at best?

 

[Patine]

The example you gave led to a revolution and fall of Tunisian government within weeks.
This reaction to this individual event is what adequately reflects the (previous) situation in Tunisia.

You're sidestepping the point. Unsurprising because that argument you made was obviously a check you can't cash.

Is France yet in as bad shape today as Tunisia was in 2011? I'd have a hard time believing that to be the case.

 

[AdrienIer]

We have a history of revolting against our ruling class. It doesn't mean that heads will roll this time but the anger is present (among the public sector for the pension reform, privatisation of railroads and education reform, in the private sector for taxes).

The 5th of december will be the make-or-break day. Either it's a large-ish strike for a day, or it becomes a general strike for weeks.

 

[Lexicus]

Which point? You trying to equate two events with superficial similarities at best?

I'm not trying to equate them, I'm simply pointing out that you're only dismissing out of hand the political dimension of one of the events because you can't see past your "everything in the EU is just fine" bias.

 

[Yeekim]

I'm not trying to equate them, I'm simply pointing out that you're only dismissing out of hand the political dimension of one of the events because you can't see past your "everything in the EU is just fine" bias.

Not dismissing. Merely disagreeing and disrespecting.
I would have expected that observing from the US you would have appreciated the irony of a student who, while taking advantage of free higher education, torches himself and blames "the system".
Sounds about appropriate for political science student failing his second year for a third time indeed.

 

[Patine]

Not dismissing. Merely disagreeing and disrespecting.
I would have expected that observing from the US you would have appreciated the irony of a student who, while taking advantage of free higher education, torches himself and blames "the system".
Sounds about appropriate for political science student failing his second year for a third time indeed.

But you don't understand. @Lexicus must always find a way to blame - and stick it to - "the Man," because stories of misfortune, from his narrative, can NEVER have any blame or hand in them by their victim whatsoever. Powerlessness of ALL victims and oppressive by the State as UNIVERSAL constants are things he seems to REALLY believe and buy into. And that kind of viewpoint is very toxic for society, because it leads it to an attitude of abdication of self-responsibility in any way being acceptable, and everything will be made right one magical day when the Oppressive State is overthrown and replaced by a "Fairy Tale Regime" made of the former victims, whose shared experiences mean they'll understand what's best for everyone and never act against, or do harm to, each other thereafter.

 

[Zardnaar]

But you don't understand. @Lexicus must always find a way to blame - and stick it to - "the Man," because stories of misfortune, from his narrative, can NEVER have any blame or hand in them by their victim whatsoever. Powerlessness of ALL victims and oppressive by the State as UNIVERSAL constants are things he seems to REALLY believe and buy into. And that kind of viewpoint is very toxic for society, because it leads it to an attitude of abdication of self-responsibility in any way being acceptable, and everything will be made right one magical day when the Oppressive State is overthrown and replaced by a "Fairy Tale Regime" made of the former victims, whose shared experiences mean they'll understand what's best for everyone and never act against, or do harm to, each other thereafter.

If you overthrow the elites persecuting people you just replace them with a new set of elites who go on to persecute people. Pick your poison.

It's hard to claim legitimacy via a revolt lol.

 

[Patine]

If you overthrow the elites persecuting people you just replace them with a new set of elites who go on to persecute people. Pick your poison.

It's hard to claim legitimacy via a revolt lol.

Yes, Lenin and Mao discovered this cruel trick of sociology and politics...

 

[innonimatu]

It's hard to claim legitimacy via a revolt lol.

No it's not. In fact that is how most constitutional orders got established: a successful revolt.

That is not to say that revolts are easy, or that most succeed. Or that they are better in some specific way than other kind of way. But that they can be successful in establishing legitimacy for new powers there is no doubt.

And sometimes (many times) people do get their bootstraps nicked by those in power. Along with their dignity, their self-worth, etc. A way to keep an established constitutional order in place can be to make most people happy with it. An equally effective way is top make most people hopeless of changing it...

Circumstances matter. The circumstance here is that young people in general are led to believe (with good cause) that education is a precondition to achieve any kind of success, and "economic safety", in life. But the economic system they live in does not allow most people to ever achieve that. They are made to fight for those places and most are crushed into the hopeless situation. There is the small group of those who receive rents, and the larger one of those who live out their lives to pay them rents. This is obvious for anyone to see and a source of either revolt or despair among those inevitably cast into the larger group.

You can talk all you want about "self-responsibility", but in a hierarchical economic system where some extract wealth from the labour of others, it is by definition impossible for everyone to make it into the rent-receiving class. Most are condemned to "fail" despite their efforts, to play the role of the servants. This is intrinsically bad. And it is not an inevitable system. Part of this revolt comes from the fact that there are differences, in degree of the inequality created by this kind of class system, between regions and between eras.

Is is deeply hypocritical by some people here to decry "revolt" when revolt, refusing the rules of the game and imposing new ones, is in fact the only remedy to it for a majority of people.
The cynical gatekeepers for the wealthy have always used that line: it's all the same, desist ye all from demanding fairer rules, for power must be corrupt.

 

[Zardnaar]

No it's not. In fact that is how most constitutional orders got established: a successful revolt.

That is not to say that revolts are easy, or that most succeed. Or that they are better in some specific way than other kind of way. But that they can be successful in establishing legitimacy for new powers there is no doubt.

And sometimes (many times) people do get their bootstraps nicked by those in power. Along with their dignity, their self-worth, etc. A way to keep an established constitutional order in place can be to make most people happy with it. An equally effective way is top make most people hopeless of changing it...

Circumstances matter. The circumstance here is that young people in general are led to believe (with good cause) that education is a precondition to achieve any kind of success, and "economic safety", in life. But the economic system they live in does not allow most people to ever achieve that. They are made to fight for those places and most are crushed into the hopeless situation. There is the small group of those who receive rents, and the larger one of those who live out their lives to pay them rents. This is obvious for anyone to see and a source of either revolt or despair among those inevitably cast into the larger group.

You can talk all you want about "self-responsibility", but in a hierarchical economic system where some extract wealth from the labour of others, it is by definition impossible for everyone to make it into the rent-receiving class. Most are condemned to "fail" despite their efforts, to play the role of the servants. This is intrinsically bad. And it is not an inevitable system. Part of this revolt comes from the fact that there are differences, in degree of the inequality created by this kind of class system, between regions and between eras.

Is is deeply hypocritical by some people here to decry "revolt" when revolt, refusing the rules of the game and imposing new ones, is in fact the only remedy to it for a majority of people.
The cynical gatekeepers for the wealthy have always used that line: it's all the same, desist ye all from demanding fairer rules, for power must be corrupt.

You can change the rules at the ballot box though.

Note my views lean more towards Scandinavian type social democracy. Not the burn it down approach which won't work lol.

 

[innonimatu]

You can, and that too is a form of revolt, changes through the ballot box. Or a manifestation of it. The current fall of the "traditional centrist parties" in many countries seems to be that process at work.

It's just that the process of politics always involves public displays of revolt. Strikes, street protests, sometimes even political violence. In itself it's not scary, it does not mean that a civil war will happen! It's just that when people's position in the social ladder is changing... individual people get vocal. Or violent! Inherent to change.
Democratic politics hopefully keeps violence to a minimum and leads society as a whole to accept the will of the majority, allowing that (ever changing) majority to take charge of running things. Hell, I'm still an optimist that democracy can achieve that purpose.

 

[innonimatu]

We have a history of revolting against our ruling class. It doesn't mean that heads will roll this time but the anger is present (among the public sector for the pension reform, privatisation of railroads and education reform, in the private sector for taxes).

The 5th of december will be the make-or-break day. Either it's a large-ish strike for a day, or it becomes a general strike for weeks.

It it turns out to be the start of a series of strikes, what do you think may become the goals of the people involved?

There is no institutional path to replace Macron anytime soon. Next year there will be only municipal elections? The traditional parties seem to have lost all following, and only the FN (or whatever it calls itself now) has not yet been burnt by disastrous stays in government. The other "populist" contender, Melenchon, has gone marginal?
The yellow vests protests have not disappeared, certainly the social malaise that motivated people to protest is present still and increasing, but they demobilized due to perceived lack of attainable goals. It is a volatile situation when there is no institutional outlet for social anger.

Do the unions still manage to command a general strike and present demands to the government, something that may produce a sense of achievement out of it? What other groups likely to participate have organized platforms capable of making specific demands to the public power? Can some go into politics with an aim to run in the next legislative elections? Can someone emerge to challenge Macron as a focus of an alternative policy for France, give people something to fight for in (and have some patience until) a next election, other than Le Pen?
Or can France be in for something alike 1968, a temporary breakdown of the whole command structure of the state, unable to have its orders fulfilled any longer? A new republic becoming necessary? The difficulty with that is that there seem to be no political parties with clear goals for the future, capable of leading constitutional changes. Again, apart from what Le Pen may organize...

France, in this, is almost as bad as Italy. There they have a totally discredited "political class", apart from the populist righ-wing party that never really government making hard decisions, and a government that endures only because it is in fear of the results of a next election! In France the president has more imperial powers, and the government can endure longer, but the discredit seems similar. Germany is headed that way also, albeit slower. And in the UK may, just may, turn out that FPTP does not prevent a constitutional reorganization there also.

I risk being labeled Cassandra again, but one of my objections to Macron was that he'd hand Le Pen a victory in the next election. And the current government in Italy will hand one to Salvini. I'm accompanying the situations from afar and may be wrong. But so far things seem headed that way.