Well, similar tools are allowed for civ3 GOTM and nobody ever complained as far as I know. It seemed that most people have agreed that a more streamlined interface has nothing to do with spoilers. So I think those who never used it before should at least try it out first before complaining. If you don't like it, you can just turn off all the extra screens, but in any case you should agree that they don't provide spolier information to those who will actually use them. So I think making a HOF Mod version of the starting save is a great idea. And if it really does help protect the game against cheating, at least to some extent, I would vote for making it compulsory. (as soon as there is a Mac version).
Possible Use of HoF Mod for GOTM - now with POLL!
- Thread starter DaviddesJ
- Start date
Seraphinus
Chieftain
I will be glad if HOF mode will be introduced also for GOTM. If first concern should be that nobody can easily changed saved games, then all who prefer "original" advisory screens should turn HOF ones off. I find this enhanced screens much more useful (especially F1 and F4) and to be onest I almost never use "glance" view of foreign advisor, which is called to be spoiler.
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- Oct 5, 2001
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Thanks for moving these posts out, Alan. 
I simply have not had time (for pretty-much anything!) this week. 
When I get time, I will add a poll to this.
Re "spoilers":
Please take care with definitions. I believe there is a clear distinction between things that collate existing information and those that explose new information. Collating existing information would be something as simple as putting the GPP stored for each city on the city summary screen. Exposing new information would be showing locations of resources that have not yet been revealed. I consider that the former is fine; the latter not. If the HOF mod gave the latter - I wouldn't even propose it.
The "grey" area is the stuff where it actually processes available data to provide new information. This is a lot of what was done with CivAssist - and we were very careful in ensuring that the only information available was that that could be reasonably calculated by someone with a spreadsheet and determination (eg. culture flip chance).
Please take care in throwing around accusations about people's abilities and the extent to which the HOF mod is a crutch. Looking at the entire interface design for civ4, and soren's statements, the goal was to simplify and remove 'unfun' elements. Hence, you have things like a combat calculator, the cost of techs, GDP information etc. I believe that they missed a few minor things that the HOF mod has rectified - that doesn't make the HOF mod a crutch that plays the game for you!
I simply have not had time (for pretty-much anything!) this week. When I get time, I will add a poll to this.Re "spoilers":
Please take care with definitions. I believe there is a clear distinction between things that collate existing information and those that explose new information. Collating existing information would be something as simple as putting the GPP stored for each city on the city summary screen. Exposing new information would be showing locations of resources that have not yet been revealed. I consider that the former is fine; the latter not. If the HOF mod gave the latter - I wouldn't even propose it.
The "grey" area is the stuff where it actually processes available data to provide new information. This is a lot of what was done with CivAssist - and we were very careful in ensuring that the only information available was that that could be reasonably calculated by someone with a spreadsheet and determination (eg. culture flip chance).
Please take care in throwing around accusations about people's abilities and the extent to which the HOF mod is a crutch. Looking at the entire interface design for civ4, and soren's statements, the goal was to simplify and remove 'unfun' elements. Hence, you have things like a combat calculator, the cost of techs, GDP information etc. I believe that they missed a few minor things that the HOF mod has rectified - that doesn't make the HOF mod a crutch that plays the game for you!
socralynnek
Civ & Hattrick addict
I second Obormot's statement.
Allowing it would really be nice and by now I haven't found something that I'd call a spoiler.
And if it helps protecting the save, I'd be fine with making it mandatory. (when there's a Mac version)
Allowing it would really be nice and by now I haven't found something that I'd call a spoiler.
And if it helps protecting the save, I'd be fine with making it mandatory. (when there's a Mac version)
I'm all for using it. Optional, if not everybody has access to it (i.e. Mac players) or doesn't like it/want to download (personal choice). As to if it is a 'cheat' or a 'spoiler'; my opinion is No. Presenting a relatively short list of + and - numbers to the player and then not expecting them to mentally add them up (and then get frustrated that they have to keep doing this exercise and then eventually finding a solution that lets the computer add them up for them) seems in my humble opinion to have been a rather odd design choice by the developers. I prefer an interface that lets me focus on making decisons that impact the game - that let me play - not force me to keep adding numbers up in my head. Still, it is only a game and hence people's personal choices of what does/doesn't spoil the fun for them has to be respected.
grahamiam
In debt to Mr. Geisel
Actually, this was the area that always annoyed me in regards to CA2 and, earlier, MapStat. I always felt things like flip calcs, forbidden palace placement, goverment change effects, etc. should be known by "feel" rather than having some off-game program calculating the exact effects for you. If you play enough games, you should have been able to "feel" if switching to Republic or Monarchy was better/worse, ditto for your cultural hold on a city or the right spot for your FP. Better players probably did calculate those things initially, but, after a while, it becomes second nature.ainwood said:
I did like that those programs for removing the tedium of scrolling thru cities to remove riots by giving you a warning and that they organized the trade possibilities.
As far as GoTM goes, since the precedent was set with Civ3, I see no reason to ban the HoF mod if it does the similar things that CA2 did for C3C. I won't like it because I agree with Mutineer that playing a spreadsheet is not what CIV should be, but that hardly matters because I'm sure the vast majority will want it.
I believe many people don't realize that even with the HoF mod up and running you can still play the game 'vanilla'. You have to go into the Options screen and turn on the added features to use them. There are several HoF competitors (Moonsinger is one I recall off the top of my head) who do not use any of the features located in the HoF mod.
I suggest for those of you who disagree with the HoF mod to first try it out before nixing it (if you haven't already). To be honest I only use one or two features in the mod myself, as I don't really like the other features. This is no big deal, as I just turn off those features.
I prefer the GOTM game to use the HoF mod. I suggest maybe a second save for the HoF mod so that our Mac players and those opposed to the mod can still compete.
I suggest for those of you who disagree with the HoF mod to first try it out before nixing it (if you haven't already). To be honest I only use one or two features in the mod myself, as I don't really like the other features. This is no big deal, as I just turn off those features.
I prefer the GOTM game to use the HoF mod. I suggest maybe a second save for the HoF mod so that our Mac players and those opposed to the mod can still compete.
DaviddesJ
Deity
Mad Professor said:
From reading this thread, there's not a single poster, except Mutineer, who objects to allowing the various play aids in the HOF mod. From reading the entire (long) HOF Mod thread, there's not a single poster, except Mutineer, who objects to allowing the various play aids in the HOF mod. That's my basis for the term "overwhelmingly".
OK, but this is a totally different question. I don't care if it's compulsory, or not. I just want the option to use it for myself.
ZerrorR
Warlord
I vote yes for HoF mode... It does not change game mechanics, it just help you to overview your empire more easily. It's not fun to calculate every single relationship between civs every few turns.
Imagine President of (put any country in here) digging at tones of papers to make an aggrement with another coutry... every month.
I say, let my office do that, my job is to make decisions...
Imagine President of (put any country in here) digging at tones of papers to make an aggrement with another coutry... every month.
I say, let my office do that, my job is to make decisions...
drkodos
Emperor
I am against mandatory use of the HOF mod and will not participate in GotM with it.
ewokimpi
A Tribal Force
At first blush, I would vote for the HOF mod to be approved, but optional, with different save files provided, one requiring the mod to be loaded, and the other avoiding the mod.
Making it optional allows those who like the summarizations provided by the mod to play their game using it, while those who want to play their game without that assistance can avoid it. Also, the People of the Mac would be able to compete on GOTM as well.
So the most inclusive approach is to allow the mod and make it optional, surely a win - win situation.
Even the mod itself seems to be win -win . . .the mod is controlled by an options .ini file, so even loading the mod does not require you to use all the features of it. Quite a nice job by the compilers of the mod.
Making it optional allows those who like the summarizations provided by the mod to play their game using it, while those who want to play their game without that assistance can avoid it. Also, the People of the Mac would be able to compete on GOTM as well.
So the most inclusive approach is to allow the mod and make it optional, surely a win - win situation.
Even the mod itself seems to be win -win . . .the mod is controlled by an options .ini file, so even loading the mod does not require you to use all the features of it. Quite a nice job by the compilers of the mod.
kingjoshi
King
Definitely would be great if there was an additional save for the HOF mod. But it should remain optional because forcing people to download additional mods isn't cool.
kingjoshi said:
For those of you who have only played Civ4 GOTM please note that in Civ3 G/COTM there was a mandatory GOTM file that had to be downloaded to your computer to play that specific game. This is not a new concept, as Civ3 G/COTM players have been doing it for over a year now.
drkodos
Emperor
Methos said:
I am aware of it and I have never played Civ3 GOTM because I am loathe to dowload any mods whatsoever. I even had to have teeth pulled in order play in these GotM's because I had to download the 1.61 patch. I prefer absitinence with regards to computer intercourse through any type of file sharing activities.
kingjoshi
King
just curious. How many files was it? The mod system is much better in Civ4 then in Civ3. In Civ3, I created a program to manage mods because of how little they provided. Here, they don't provide what I would like, but the layout of the files and extensibility make it much nicer. However, I don't think players should be asked to do much besides play, don't cheat, and hopefully, participate in the discussions of the community.
However, I do understand that if having one file and such reduces the work of the Mods, they'd be more likely inclined. And they give enough to the community that I would certainly think that would be reasonable. Especially with Warlords coming out. And reducing possibility of cheating increases the incentives even more.
But personally, I'd just not have locked assets and ask people to not cheat on honor. And only randomly check up on games that seem 'suspicious'. That would allow for mods and minimize work.
However, I do understand that if having one file and such reduces the work of the Mods, they'd be more likely inclined. And they give enough to the community that I would certainly think that would be reasonable. Especially with Warlords coming out. And reducing possibility of cheating increases the incentives even more.
But personally, I'd just not have locked assets and ask people to not cheat on honor. And only randomly check up on games that seem 'suspicious'. That would allow for mods and minimize work.
Methos said:
PtW and Conquests play C/GOTMs on the out-of-the-box version of the software.Only vanilla version players have to download and install a Civ3 GOTM mod, and that's only required to bring vanilla up to a level where it can play equivalent civs and units to PtW. The only other file I'm aware of is one you can use to set a conquests.ini flag, used by players who are nervous of text editing the file themselves.
If you want to look back into the mists of time, there was a period that ended about two years ago when PtW GOTMs did use mods with extra resources and such. COTM used a mod only once, to enable the hidden Austrian civ that comes with the game.
[PS] I hope you are not referring to the start file for each game? I don't see how the C/GOTM competitions could run without that
Stormreaver
Warlord
After having tried out the HOF mod, I don't see a problem requiring it except for the exclusion of Mac users. I understand people who do not want to mod their game however, so if I had to rank the options:
- Allow for both HOF and non-HOF players, i.e. 2 saves
- Require HOF
- Go with unmodded CIV
Mad Professor
Deity
Methos said:
Well that certianly makes it "try"able. Nice to know.
Mad Professor
Deity
DaviddesJ said:
It's the idea of making it complsory that drew my negative reaction. I guess the possible problems involved in allowing its use without making it compulsory are firstly, the work the GOTM staff might have to do as a result of making some using it andsome not - I'm not sure what that would involve. The other possible problem is whether you could fairly compare the results of those who used it and those who don't. I'll reserve further comment on that until I've played around with it.
Having said all that I still dislike the idea of it being compulsory.
@AlanH: The Civ3 GOTM page isn't working so I was unable to reference it for the above post. I still can't access it. So the above and here is based off of memory only.
It's been a long time since I've played any Civ3, let alone the GOTM games. As I recall you are correct that a GOTM mod was required for Civ3 vanilla players, so that Civ3 vanilla and PTW were similar enough for the competition.
However, there was also a mod that was required that granted additional resources. If I'm remembering correctly, they were the Meditteranean (sp?) resources.
Either way, as you have mentioned, mods have been used on several occaisions in past G/COTM games. I totally forgot about the Australian mod game. I'm merely trying to point out to those non-Civ3 G/COTM players that mods have been used before in this type of game and worked well. I see no reason why it can't be continued here.
Edited: Kept adding statements.
It's been a long time since I've played any Civ3, let alone the GOTM games. As I recall you are correct that a GOTM mod was required for Civ3 vanilla players, so that Civ3 vanilla and PTW were similar enough for the competition.
However, there was also a mod that was required that granted additional resources. If I'm remembering correctly, they were the Meditteranean (sp?) resources.
Either way, as you have mentioned, mods have been used on several occaisions in past G/COTM games. I totally forgot about the Australian mod game. I'm merely trying to point out to those non-Civ3 G/COTM players that mods have been used before in this type of game and worked well. I see no reason why it can't be continued here.
Edited: Kept adding statements.
