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Post a (tough) Deity map for me to play

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Lain, Jul 19, 2017.

  1. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Okay darn, looks like i have to change something with my mods.
    My warmoners were Rags, Shaka, Monty, Nappy, Genghis and Boudi.
    Boudi is def. the good one with no DoW at pleased, but she frequently had the best armies in my games ~~
     
  2. Imploding

    Imploding Chieftain

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    Just want to post the option i posted in you youtube map vote thing.
    The "allways at war" option seems like a fun viewing experience on deity.. and Sittingbull is the defencive guy.... I don't think i ever have seen or heard of anyone winning a pangea always war map on deity.

    So yeah.. that would bee really cool to see :)
     
  3. Berks

    Berks Chieftain

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    Hi BiC,

    Save looks pretty good to me. Interested to see you continue.

    Spoiler :
    I don't know how 5 cities by 2000BC is possible? Do we just tech BW and chop settlers @ size 3? How do you fogbust? Do you think we need to use archers on this map for the southern jungle?


    Hi Lain,

    I voted for the engineering rush map. I have real trouble executing this rush. I did attempt the map myself:

    Spoiler :
    Got ruined by barbs twice, losing multiple key units at 90+ odds - usually the ones keeping my settlers and workers safe and sites fogbusted :(

    Third try, Liz settles in my face by about T22 (where BiC put Ankara). I only get 3 good cities and 1 marginal city up, but still manage to cap her around 425AD. I mismanaged the GPP production and teching horribly, I had to bulb Alpha with 2nd GS to get enough research to finish Construction (no one had alpha 400 BC) and won with elepult.

    Have 9 cities, lots of wonders, but miles behind in tech, almost no cottages up and no siege (lost too many in the 70-80 range cracking her secondary stack, so had to take peace midway through war to build some more. Liz got LB and Maces in the interim, and then I lost almost all my siege again taking her last city on the mainland)

    I don't think there is any value in posting the save, but trying the map was good experience nonetheless.

    Maybe I will try a 4th time, trying to hit BiC's goal of 5 cities by 2000 BC.


    Hi Imploding,

    Readers might get a kick out of these two Deity AW threads :cool:

    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/deity-aw-2.419260/
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/deity-aw-3.423095/

    There are also other threads, but I don't know if any other threads have a win posted.

    Spoiler :
    (I opened the winning AW3 save and the play time was 212 hours. Impressive dedication!)
     
    Imploding likes this.
  4. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    @ Berks :
    Spoiler :
    Yes, chops and work hammer tiles. Settle on plains hills. I started on settlers at size 4. We're IMP so gaining access to the 2 plains hills (work corn, ivory, forested ph and mined ph) gives a huge boost. Planning to go settler, settler, worker, settler indefinitely means you should grow before stagnating for so long (the longer you stagnate, the greater the cost of not growing, right ?). Going Settler, warrior, on the opposite, could support a settler at size 3 or even 2 to grab a most excellent city site asap.
    On this map, while you could have 5 cities and 4 workers by t50...
    Spoiler :

    ... Pedro is right and it doesn't make much sense to go past the 4th city, by lack of a good spot to settle with the early techs.
    @ pic : gold isn't improved because Ankara has been under a lot of heat.
    Sure, warriors do some defence. But if you claim that much territory, your cultural influence also does some fogbusting.
    Konya is city 5. Before starting a settler for a city like this... couple of questions :
    - can I afford it ? (not really)
    - what's the value of growth vs value of new claimed tiles ? (it shares tiles with a capital that could grow 3 pop and stay happy)
    ^That second question is a deal breaker when deciding what to insert into a queue. Best asked right after growth. Can be anticipated.




    @ Stonehenge start :
    It's terrible, really.
    I opted to shrine Confucianism. The payoff for this move is far too slow.
    Then I opted for an early switch into Caste System, so as to get a Scientist before the 2nd Prophet.
    In turn, this led me to take over the corn from the capital with another city, so as to grow it fast enough.
    Come turn XXX and I have a good tech level (Philosophy bulbed ; while I was at it, why not ?) but :
    - growth & infrastructure have been stunted / delayed for too long ;
    - commerce base hasn't been developped.
    This has been a downwards spiral in which I've sacrificed ever more production.
    Assuming a Stonehenge start, I'm not sure what the more reasonable line could have been. Settle 2x Great Prophet, build Barracks and get a military tech ?
    I dunno. SH seemed fine in the opening screen, when I saw wheat and gold so far apart but not so much in retrospect.

    See :
    Spoiler :

    If I look at this pic and ask : have any real progress been made ? I'm not sure I could say : yes. The situation is still fine but is it a commanding or winning position ? Not really, right ?
    Too many turns have passed for too little benefit. I barely have a war tech. The shrine gives in some gold but there are no diplomatic gains from the religion. Cottages are scarce and not matured. Infrastructure is still lacking..
    Cities are so small and they have such a huge happy surplus.
    Passive. Stunted. Development.


    It's a pity, maybe. I really like these sorts of maps with great resource variety.
    But, with that many (happy) resources, I should have gathered a lot more food by then.


    :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017
  5. Berks

    Berks Chieftain

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    Hi BiC,

    Re: your save - Thanks for the more detailed explanation. I thought your save looked good as it made my best effort look like I was an emperor player.
    Spoiler :
    (4th city not yet settled @ same turn, 2 workers, no wonders)

    Even so, I launched an attack around 300BC which led to a 425AD cap, something you are not in position to do in the SH save. Points taken!


    Re: your explanation on expansion in this game:
    Spoiler :
    I agree the fifth city is not needed that early. In my game, Liz took your Ankara spot on T22, or maybe T23, so it wasn't available to me. How would this have changed your plans in a non-SH build?
    I seriously considered switching to a 3 city HA rush at that point, but my third city was where you put Eridne, because of barbs killing my 2 fogbusting warriors on the turn my settler popped. So then I am waiting about 20 turns for a monument, border pop, and hookup of Horse
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2017
  6. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    ^ Second question :
    Spoiler :
    Not sure, maybe keep it to 3 cities, yes. Maybe synchronize cities 4&5 with a quick Alphabet that unlocks Iron Working. Follow with a worker burst to develop the jungle fast. There are a couple of killer spots out there (5S of capital and pigs city).
    At first glance the map layout is very rich but there are many awkward city locations.
    Most importantly, the gold is hard to claim :
    Settling in between gold and cows is tempting but a tough spot to defend (faraway flatland).
    No riverside spot can claim the gold and the wheat simultaneously.

    If Lizzy gets the wheat that early, maybe you can push for a better spot in the NE ? there's a tile with cows in 1st ring and wheat + clams in the 2nd.
    That would be a great city to nab with +10 food surplus, long term.

    Seems like progress is being made in your game, unlike mine, props.
     
  7. Berks

    Berks Chieftain

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    @bic

    Spoiler :
    I did get the Cow+Clam+Wheat city as my 2nd city, I settled it 1E of cows to block Liz and allow the possiblity of using the Wheat for a second city before IW.
    I think my game is dead, I am teching 66 BPT@100%, and around 30BPT stable at 425AD.........

    I like the idea of going for Alpha to unlock IW and moving south!! I think I was too fixated on the elepult/engineering rush option
     
  8. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Berks :
    Spoiler :
    Too much whipping, not enough pop ?
    It's possible you can recover by focusing your cities entirely on growth. Easier if you already have the improved tiles. If you have the happy surplus, you can start with farming a few tiles.
    You don't necessarily need to research every turn. In some situations, taking even 20 turns off, while not optimal, still allows to get back into the trading game.

    Having a vassal could help, at least it's a guaranteed trade partner and you can direct their research.
     
  9. Snowbird

    Snowbird Chieftain

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    As far as I recall it was tough enough for me on immortal (some time ago). Overall pretty straightforward (it is what you think at ~10turn mark), not sadistic (like desert islands), not cooked (upped the difficulty to Deity of course, but the map is naturally generated as fractal) and nice starting position.

    It's with unrestricted leaders -- human starts as Mansa of Holy romans.
     

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  10. Lain

    Lain Chieftain

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    Sounds good, would also be a change of scenery with the unrestricted leaders. Thanks for the suggestion @Snowbird :)

    ==

    So here is the first game that won the vote. Sitting Bull on a Pangaea with warmonger-only opponents. Thanks @Fippy for the idea. This is your start:

    Spoiler :




    Feel free to play along. It's definitely something different. :)
     

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  11. Olafeson

    Olafeson Chieftain

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    Well as far as i am concerned i would really like to see someone make a LP video on Deity/Immortal with the K-Mod.

    Only heard good things about the Mod, and i really like the balance changes.
    If you say uncooked maps, does that mean that you do not want older NC games from the 2nd and third circle?

    Andy yeah thanks for the map, gonna play alongside you and wait for your LP and compare your style to mine once again :crazyeye::D
     
  12. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    It's a different game with K-mod.
    Better AI sounds good on paper, but when i last tried i got Archer rushed before t40 by a normally friendly AI like Lizzy or Hatshie, cannot remember which.

    While some might find that exciting to defend against such possibilities, friendly nature AIs are not supposed to do that imo..it's unrealistic and not fun.
    It's copying mp more than sp, with AI personality being almost meaningless.

    Might be worth trying isolation games thou.
     
  13. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    @ Lain, Sitting Bull phaze 1 :

    Spoiler :
    Eeew ! That barb archer... Props for staying in the game.
    Yes, wounded barbs that land next to improved tiles will enter your territory and run on a pillaging spree. It's really bad when it happens, because it's early and units are exploring rather than defending.

    I think you show very sound strategic & diplo thinking. That was pleasant to follow.

    @ the map :
    It makes me unconfortable. All close city sites take up food from the capital.
    There's no commerce, yet you need the super expensive mining+bw to start improving tiles. Then there's that Bronze location, sheee. You acknowledged it beforehand but still : it's 1/4th of your power tiles. Losing one really hurts.
    Dog soldiers are so bad at capturing barb cities it's not even funny (need swordsmen). Depending where they spawn, that, too, can be really, really bad.
    Many of the AIs won't even trade techs at Cautious. Without religious spread you're badly isolated (found about it a little too late for my taste).

    Not sure if you realized it : it's an inland sea to the south-east. Toku has met you and Alex and Alex knows everybody : Toku is blocked but Alex has a southern passage.
    Won't comment much on the jungle, since you didn't explore over there. Just, I don't know... Careful with the maintenance, I suppose ? That ivory tile looks like redemption, sure, but you need Construction and/or HBR to make use of it. That's a long way off.

    Iirc, the capital could do 10H/turn without mining a single hill (no Bronze). That's a 9 turns library. I wonder how reasonable it is to skip Bronze/Pott and go straight into Writing. 1 worker, The Wheel, gpp, Alphabet.
    Safety is a concern. Delay on tile improvements is a concern. But that beeline comes with many benefits : reduced maintenance (expland packed), diplo control (bribe ? OB with Tokugawa ?), iron working (provided you can trade).
     
  14. Lain

    Lain Chieftain

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    @BornInCantaloup

    Spoiler :

    Thanks for the comment! Yeah the start is really slow. The only thing I can think of is skipping Animal Husbandry and mine the pigs. But it's hard to justify with the cows also being there. Would probably still do it in isolation. On a Pangaea the first concern is surely to grab enough land. Having early power tiles helps with that. Skipping Bronze Working and sitting with warriors against Tokugawa seems too risky though.

    Such a big difference to have Pottery available 2400 BC or something compared to when I got it. But it's possible to come back from that with a good tech trade or two.

    It's a good challenge, because I have to balance expansion, commerce and production. Switching off with just warriors like in most games is not really an option. Neither is settling in someone's face. On the brightside, this crowd is unlikely to run away with the techs either.

    I did realize the inland-sea thing later. Probably later than necessary.
     
  15. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    ^
    Spoiler :
    Yes, I agree regarding the tech path.
    Player's hand is forced into AH, BW/Wheel, Pottery.

    Making a friend is hard. I accepted shared wars twice and it didn't pan out well :
    - AIs made peace "shortly" after ;
    - Suffered diplo hits from "you declared war on our friend".

    Got religion around 550 BC.
     
  16. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Not sure how you guys played this start, here's mine at t46
    Spoiler :
    Did SiP, i thought the corn can be left for another city down the river and seemed highly likely 1s would be settling on a resi (being copper, that worked nice lol).
    But also saved 1 turn for the worker moving on pigs, without that little gain i am not sure what i would have done.

    Then i teched wheel, or the worker would have nothing to do with BW before..met 3 AIs early with their units wandering around me, so just warriors seemed fine. Built 2 settlers at size 3, getting the horsies spot south became a huge priority with seeing Rags close already. Now i already feel a bit boxed in, barb city west and where to settle next..
    did not scout nw of cap yet, fogbuster was not needed cos AIs constantly had 2+ units there.
     

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  17. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    My 2000 BC :

    Spoiler :
    Same as Fippy in : SIP, Wheel before Bronze.
    Got a good scout of the jungle to the SW and ran into almost overwhelming barb troubles.
    Lost 3 warriors (4 remaining), killing 7 archers and 3 warriors. In the meantime, a barb city spawned by the horse to the SE, which denies me the only remotely close to acceptable city site in moderate distance.

    So, I only have two cities and two workers. First dog soldier is coming out next turn.
    Have a settler and a worker in the doing... but no real spot to settle !
    Worker by Poverty Point (good name) will be roading SW / cottage.

    Spoiler :


    Don't ask me why my plains hills are roaded. Waiting for Bronze Working ? Barbarians ? Can't remember.


    1400 BC :
    Spoiler :
    I just completed the research of Writing and still only have 2 cities.
    Could open borders with Tokugawa after accepteing to join a war by his side against Alexander. That will net me a marble deal for which I'll have no use.

    Spoiler :


    I'm also paying 5gpt in a combination of unit maintenance and supply. That's harsh.
    It's because... you know... jungle, roading to the SW... I had a settler in the queue. Now there are two more. I also have 4 workers.
    Despite how messed up this attempt is, I quite like the following situation :
    Spoiler :

    This settler has been on stand-by for a while, now, to save on maintenance.
    It's all pre-roaded, I have Writing, all 3 cities will be settled within 3 turns.

    However, this will be the end of my expansion. I won't be able to capture any of the 2 barb cities we can see here.


    1000 BC :
    Spoiler :
    Nothing new under the sun.
    Development is not lightning fast in the south, with all the great food resources I did not claim.
    In the north, I'm accumulating gpp in Cahokia and trying to improve my commerce base.
    Banking gold into Alphabet for now. Shaka has Alpha already. Tokugawa has made peace with Alexandre and I only got a +1 relation with him.
    Overall : not good. The starting screenshot for this map was very promising but it didn't turn out well at all.

    Spoiler :




    @ Lain :
    I've almost watched all of your part 2 :
    Spoiler :
    The whipping you did early in that set... I don't know.
    Around t60 you have about 10 units but only 4 total population points ! I wonder how much money you're paying on unit maintenance at that point.
    Remember : the more pop you have, the more units you can afford for free.
    Sure, your city maintenance can raise a bit but you're also in capacity to work more commerce tiles. Even the forested spices yield a net benefit.

    Whipping the floodplains in Poverty Point also is questionable compared with, say, growing to size 3 or 4 and then whipping a size or 2.

    It's a struggle to get to Writing on this map (I had similar difficulties) and I don't think the whipping helps much.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
  18. Lain

    Lain Chieftain

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    @Unit Maintenance: Is there a spreadsheet somewhere of how many units you can afford with x population without paying maintenance? Seems important for the early game. Especially in isolation etc I think I would use it. Right now it's just guessing.

    Also: We all know that some AI can plot at pleased. But how likely is that actually, are there any numbers? For example I read somewhere (from you @Fippy I think), that Willem is more likely to declare at Pleased than.. Shaka, for example. Who is the biggest threat @Pleased? :)

    @BornInCantaloup

    Spoiler :

    Yeah I agree. Don't like my play there either. Luckily I got a grip a bit later and made some better decisions. Whipping 2->1 like that in a new city is not really something I like to do. The barb damage and loss of worker turns somehow threw me off. But growing on spices/floodplains would have been better than what I did.

    Probably I was paranoid about losing the city sites, so I wanted workers out asap to chop settlers and all. Well, some questionable moves there no doubt.

    Shame about that barb city in your attempt. Why didn't you settle next to the ivory for wheat in first ring? And aren't you worried about a dogpile from the likes of Montezuma, being in a war and all?
     
  19. Fish Man

    Fish Man Chieftain

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    Sorry if I'm interrupting anything.

    I think this is a pretty hard map. It was posted several years ago. I've seen several youtubers fail at it, including chris and TMIT - have yet to see a playthrough of a successful attempt. Perhaps some of y'all here would fancy giving it a shot?
     
  20. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    You are looking for this chart, Lain :)

    NoWarProbs at Pls (pleased) = 80 are the most notorious backstabbers.
    Shaka has only 40 at cautious, but 90 at pleased.

    Ofc Shaka builds more units than Willy, and if he's not pleased with you it's veeery likely he will attack at some point, but he's an "okay friend" which explains why he appears as passive in some games. Shaka also does not care much about different Relis, but gives a strong shared bonus.

    "DecWThem" shows the bribing, Cathy with her famous at friendly while some AIs cannot be bribed on you if they are not annoyed or cautious.

    Overall the most dangerous ones are Monty and Alex, no surprises there ;)
    With Cathy always being unreliable and aggressive too, but she builds less units (or she would be even worse than Monty).

    Ragnar stands out with surprisingly tame numbers, but then why do we always see guys like him at war..most AIs plot fast at annoyed, and the peaceweight between warmongers and let's say Gandhi are so bad that they might even start as furious ;)

    Hmm i will add the peaceweight, it's rather important as connection.
    Those AIs at 0 will always attack peaceful AIs, and their relations will never improve.
    While you had Shaka & Ramsy on one continent in the Toku game, and they never were at war.
    2 vs. 6 peaceweight, still somewhat okay so the charts were nicely reflected in that game.
     

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    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017

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