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Post a (tough) Deity map for me to play

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Lain, Jul 19, 2017.

  1. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup A Shadow for the Warrior

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    @ Lain :
    Spoiler :
    "Why didn't you settle next to the ivory for wheat in first ring?"
    Commerce, I guess, staying inland, claiming rivers, not being too far away from my other cities, having a 2H city tile. Settling on the ivory requires a border pop but it strikes me as the better long-term location.
    Maybe it was a bad move, because it takes a while to develop. I didn't really think it through, except for the part where I decided how to get my border pop (8 turns at 5H/t and two chops).
    The ivory, in any case, isn't a tile I intended to work. 13 turns border pop... seemed affordable.

    For 1st ring wheat, I suppose I'd have settled coastal, so as to also get the clams, later on, and have a potential GP farm.
    At that point, I think I still had slight hopes to get the clams with another city.

    "And aren't you worried about a dogpile from the likes of Montezuma, being in a war and all?"
    Yes! Fortunately there are still barbarian cities at that point in the game and I count on the AIs to go after them before they attack me.
    I also need to bribe my way out of the war with Alexandre and that might be a problem.
    I doubt it would have been a safer course of action to refuse Tokugawa's demand to DoW Alex. That diplo hit with Toku must hurt.
    (I like the city gifting you did, btw. I never do that, not paying enough attention to diplo as I do.)

    It's often a good move to whip a worker 2->1 if the city can grow on, say, a floodplains.
    It takes about the same time as building the worker at size 1 and nets some incidental hammers/commerce.
    With an even better food source like that corn, whipping 2->1 is the fastest way to obtain that worker.
    It all depends, however, on the use you have for that worker.
    Overall, very appropriate in the early game and less so as the game goes on, when the more developed parts of the Empire should provide the workforce.[/spooiler]


    @ full diplo chart you can get it here :
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/when-a-civ-wants-to-trade-maps.358626/#post-9030955
    @ unit maintenance : lost somewhere in the war academy (articles by the Curious Cat, maybe).
    The financial advisor (F2) doesn't help planning for maintenance but it gives you an instant overview, which allows to react to it, if need be.


    Edit : Phew, this should help @ 300 BC :
    Spoiler :


    Have not played any further.

    Buddhism spread in 575 BC. 4 Buddhist AIs soon after and I converted as well. Shared war with Montezuma against the Mongol (Shaka took peace). Aesthetics for peace with Alex (spotted 10+ units in Vikings lands running towards my borders).
    Replayed my last few turns into a gift city to Jewish Tokugawa and the diplo situation seems under control, although I'm very backwards.
    I can soon bulb Philo and found Taoism. That will put me at tech parity.

    Aesth for Alpha trade was a failure (650 BC Aesth), since only Monty was willing to trade.
    So I went Aesth for Maths with him.
    Some turns after, I did Aesth for Iron Working with Shaka (who was Pleased for only a single turn !). Allowed me to improve the gems.
    And now I've recently done Aesth + Poly for Alphabet with Toku. I lost some happiness deals (gold from Shaka), in order to keep the marble deal on.

    AIs have real stacks, now. Will be tough to get into the action.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
  2. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup A Shadow for the Warrior

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    250 BC : need to trade, not sure how.
    I feel almost optimistic, right now.
     

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  3. Berks

    Berks Chieftain

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    Hi Lain,

    Quite like Sitting Bull, tempted to give this a shot also. Maybe I should play some sets and then watch to the corresponding points in your videos :p

    Hi Undefeatable,

    Spoiler :
    I re-read the last few pages of the thread you linked. it looks like AZ posted a win 2nd try around,and Gkey beat the map with cannons. Pretty sure Snaaty's game would have been a winner too. Not disagreeing that it isn't a hard map though.


    Edit: Played a rushed set to 50BC. Going to watch Lain's videos to that point now.

    Spoiler :
    SIP, Cows first. Teched AH -> Wheel -> Pot -> Writing. Masonry next, bulbed Math. Teched Construction using saved up gold. Everyone had math before me though, only got Sailing off Ghenghis (couldnt get IW). Traded Construction to Ghengis for HBR. Settled 2nd GS.

    Built 4 cities, captured one near the Horses with Cats and Dogs (just me, or is that funny? :D)

    Added Mysticism and Hunting, chopped out an elepult army, with a few spears and dogs.

    Monty was curbstomping Ragnar and had 10 cities, so I decided to go for Toku. Alex declared on Toku the same turn I planned to, so I waited an extra 2 turns. Couldn't wait any longer as I was bleeding money @ 0%.Took 3 cities while limping to Currency. Took Toku's capital, then 10 turn peace for Alpha.

    Going for Compass as trade bait. Will build up the army and finish off Toku in 10. Not sure what I should do after that. Probably adopt Monty's religion and try to stay safe while teching towards Cannons.


    Hi BiC,

    Re: your save:

    Spoiler :
    I had a barb city in the same spot as you, but was able to capture it. Shame you weren't able to get it, you are in great shape if you have that city as well!

    Think I would trade for Construction, Currency and Monarchy and try for elepult. You have decent pop and quite a few forests. Toku seems fairly weak? Maybe Monty? Ragnar has longbows already. Shame Alex has Music, or you could have teched it and used an Artist GA to get some more GS' :(

    Can you get Med and use Philo bulb to bribe someone onto your target in the meantime?

    I took some inspiration from your post about early writing and libraries, and delayed mining until after writing. It helped my commerce and GPP significantly. Production at size 4 was decent enough to secure most of the backlands.
     

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    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
  4. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup A Shadow for the Warrior

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    @ Berks :

    Spoiler :
    Why did you take peace with Tokugawa ? It seems like he's crushed and you have a very nice standing army in position to push further...
    Alex is likely to vassal him but shouldn't you capture as much territory as possible in the meantime ?
    Northern city may be very, very weakly defended. SE city has got plenty of floodplains cottages to work with.

    Economic situation is a little worrying but you aren't very backwards in techs. Just at a halt.
    First step : you could cancel your wheat deal with Shaka and trade him copper for gpt and an extra happy resource.
    Second step : careful with the whipping. You've got enough units, just need to maintain your army.

    Gems city wants a border pop ? Unlock gems.
    Your road network could use some improvement, so that your units reach the frontlines asap.

    Not sure how you can improve the diplo situation but it's a stake. Montezuma is going to be a monster.
    Sharing war against the Vikings will give you a diplo hit with other AIs. Same with adopting Buddhism.
    Or are you planning to adopt Hinduism, befriend Alex and lead your army back to strike against Monty ?
    To me, with a quick glance, the safest line seems to be to attack Alex after Tokugawa and try to befriend Montezuma. Alex must have a stack but, at least, he has few cities. It's possible you could extort techs from him.
    If that would be the plan, you might want to raise, somewhat, your unit count for when you enter the new war (no downtime between Toku & Alex).

    Biggest stake @ improving the economy : unlock happy resources so as to work more tiles.
    Improve the wine asap (maybe after your chops are done).
    It's possible you can get a deal for Horses with Montezuma after you get some (worth several happy resources).
    If you find yourself with a lot of new land to improve, then you'll need extra workers (preferably chopped rather than whipped // or whip angry citizens).


    @ My game :
    Spoiler :
    Yes, I want/need all those techs.
    The We Fear You Are Becoming Too Advanced threshold is very low with those AIs (8 techs) and that is a problem. Desperately need a/some Friendly AIs.
    I hadn't considered a bribe with Philosophy. Interesting.
    I've actually played a couple of turns further and Montezuma bribed me to war against Toku. Not sure I'll push into his territory but I'll try to capture the horse city he has to my SE.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2017
  5. Berks

    Berks Chieftain

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    I played another set, to 475AD. Doubt my game is winnable now, things got weird:

    Spoiler :
    Toku capped to MONTY, who declared on Ghengis and Alex. Monty took a city off Alex, his stack was about 30 units, as I saw it with my boat. Shaka joined in on Monty's side, this really hurt. I didn't have any techs to bribe him in or out with! Alex and Ghengis seem to have about 10 cities between them, so I built some defensive units and redeclared on Monty. If I dogpile Alex, I can't kill a 13 city Monty with 2 vassals, with my economy.

    Toku was indeed broken. He gets Longbows late, but I take all of Toku's lands except 1 crappy silver city. I lost Poverty point for 1 turn when Ragnar's lone Horse Archer won 3 battles at stupid odds. Monty sent 1 stack my way, but was repelled by my CGIII archers and WE's. Take peace with Monty once I get Toku's good land.

    I have 11 cities now. My game now revolves around recovering the economy and killing Monty before he wins Dom. The other guys are all tiny with 5 or 6 cities, and all hate each other. No threat.

    Tech is in the pits. I plan to use the rest of my gold to tech CoL and then run some scientists in a few key spots, so I can bulb my way back into the race. I need to hope Monty doesn't cap Alex in the meantime. Alex has Pikes and his other cities appear to be out of reach of Monty, so I am hopeful he can hold on long enough. Shaka and Ghenghis seem to be fighting to a draw.


    Now to finally watch the rest of Lain's videos!
     

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  6. Lain

    Lain Chieftain

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    Was out with a cold for a few days so couldn't really comment much. The diplo charts and stuff helps, but I still have a question maybe you can answer @BornInCantaloup

    Here it says that Montezuma, for example, will only peace-vassal to a player at Friendly: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-illustrated-1-know-your-enemy.478563/page-2#post-11931773

    But can he peace vassal to other AI under different requirements? Is Pleased enough? Does relation matter at all?

    Cool that you are playing along, will check your games later.
     
  7. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup A Shadow for the Warrior

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    @ Lain : peace vassal requirements are the same for a player or an AI.
    Information on this topic is always hard to come by and I have never memorized them.
    1/ Attitude
    2/ Target AI has power < average power
    3/ Master power > 1,5 * target power

    4/ Target AI being a land target (8 tiles of shared borders ; 3 cities on the same continent) may or may not factor in the calculations (discount)

    Most HoF players know about this stuff but I do not :)


    @ Berks : I'm afraid I did the same mistake as you and underbuilt units.
     
  8. Lain

    Lain Chieftain

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    So based on that sheet, Montezuma is not able to peace-vassal unless he is Friendly towards an AI? Stuff like that is good to know. Usually I am too scared about peace vassaling when I see a "Pleased" face and take the capitulation. Even though I could take more cities without danger in that case?

    Hm, but for Pacal it also says "Friendly" and I'm almost 100% sure that I've seen that weasel peace vassal before when he was merely pleased towards his future master.
     
  9. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup A Shadow for the Warrior

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    It's possible I'm wrong, that wouldn't be a first ^^
     
  10. unas876

    unas876 Chieftain

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    It might be interestng to see you replay maps that AZ has lost on video. He never used to lose easy games in his earlier era (I'd say up to Deity 52 or so) and there are a few NC games that he lost that should still be around. Have you ever thought about that?
     
  11. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup A Shadow for the Warrior

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    I saw that you completed your game. Well done !
    Spoiler :
    I saw how you secured the Eastern front and that was very good diplo management.
    I did not watch your wars but saw you could successfully capitulate Monty and Ragnar. GG, that's neat.


    I got swamped and would rather start a new game than drag this one until the 1800's.
    Spoiler :
    Overall, I think I failed the initial expansion, losing the horse spot to barbs and then AIs.
    Then I've probably been too passive with the diplo. I joined wars when asked to and that did net very little benefits.
    Focused on research with my tiny Empire and that runs out fast.
    Eventually, when bribed against Tokugawa, I could start gathering a stack. After some AP action, everyone DoWed Toku. Monty captured Horse city. I captured a border city. Monty captured Tokyo, Alex captured Kyoto and capped Tokugawa.
    Game is going nowhere :
    Spoiler :

    Now, I don't know, maybe I should have pushed against Alexander.
    I decided to run the army back West. DoWed Monty, gifted Nara back to Toku, which trapped Monty's stack, captured 2 cities, got stopped by the AP. DoWed Ragnar, captured 2 cities, got stopped by the AP.
    And there I am, now I can DoW Monty again...
    Spoiler :

    Tech is alright. I never ran away but I can maintain parity.
     

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  12. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    cg Lain, i would say this map was "friendly" for that setting overall ;)
    The lake blocked some AIs, Shaka & Genghis were far away so imo half of the warmongers did not matter.
    Still a great result ofc.
     
  13. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup A Shadow for the Warrior

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    I've opened this map and played my 100 turns.
    I think it went well but, I don't know, is it really suited for forum play ? This is a clear case where the player doesn't settle in place.
    To make it more unbalanced, the scout has 3 "reasonable" directions to go on t1
    And then, there's a single really high pay off location for the capital.
    Odds that it is missed are pretty bad. Only one line of reasoning gets you there, and it doesn't imply settling on t0.

    Of course, there's no way of knowing this before trying the map out.
    (If you wonder, the doxa says you move the scout opposite to where you consider moving the settler, just so you check on the food you could move away from.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2017
  14. unas876

    unas876 Chieftain

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    But isn't what you're saying here kind of what Lain asked for? Something a bit unusual. I didn't play the map myself (had to send in my computer to get it fixed, can't play atm...) but obviously I looked over the map in WB to see if it was gonna be an interesting and (at least rather) tough game to win. Otherwise there would have been no point in me posting the map and he could have just rolled a random one himself.

    Anyways, in my experience donut maps are usually on the easy side because of how much land you can grab in most cases, so the goal was definitely to choose a map thats a little tricky in other ways.

    Who knows if this map will even end up being played on video, but I would definitely be interested to see what you made of it @BornInCantaloup !
     
  15. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup A Shadow for the Warrior

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    ^ Sure, unas876. Here goes the part about settling :

    Spoiler :
    The question is : are we really being plains cowed ?
    The presence of spice is a bad omen. Standardized starting locations have 4 resources in the capital's BFC.
    To make sure, we want to check the tiles in the fog.

    Appealing settling locations for the settler are riverside and keeping control over the cows. 1W, NW, 2NW, 2N.
    Barring any additional food source, the best spot to settle is 2N on the spices : the city tile gains some extra commerce but, more importantly, there's a floodplains 2N of the scout.


    This is a scout move that lets us check most of the fogged tiles. Only the tile 2SE of the settler would remain unknown on t1 :
    Spoiler :


    If we're settling on t1 and following this scout movement, then the settler should go NE, NW and onto the forested spices, such that it uncovers the most tiles. It could still settle 2W of the cows on t1 if we found, say, riverside corn (we do not).

    First, what does the scout find and do we move the settler ?
    Scout finds flatland stone 2ES of the settler. Is the plains cow, plains stone an appealing location for the capital ? Eek... I think we move.

    t1, after moving the scout and uncovering the most tiles we could :
    Spoiler :


    Actually, the settler made an important find on its way to the spice tile : a fresh water, non riverside hill that indicates an oasis tile to its NW.
    Now, if we settle NE, we have a 2C city tile, retain control of the cows, of the floodplains and get an oasis in the first ring (research + food).
    So, first, we get some extra food from 2 tiles (every little bit helps) and
    Second, we get an extra 2/3 passive commerce per turn ; that makes a huge difference comes turn 50 or so.

    On most maps it doesn't matter much how you scout, since the settling location is very straightforward.

    Does it make any difference here ? Yes, sure does. By turn 18, Agriculture and Animal Husbandry have been researched, we're ready to improve our green cows ( :eek: ) and, after the plains cows are done, we'll follow up with the horses ( :crazyeye: ) :
    Spoiler :


    Now, remember that Stone + plains cows potential city site ? Looks dull in comparison, doesn't it ?
    Green cows, horses, there's no way to get there unless you spot the oasis.


    2000 BC :
    Spoiler :
    Exploration :
    On Inland Sea, I always try to circle the map with the initial unit, so as to meet the Ais and unlock trade routes / religious spread.
    So, the scout finds Brennus to the S, SW behind some jungle barrier, then there's Pericles, and then he'll remain stuck on flatland, moving 1 tile per turn back and forth to evade barbarians.
    Inland Sea is often a nasty template with barbarians but, having several cows and horses, the capital has enough production to make up for the lack of that unit.

    Tech path :
    Capital is not working anything else but special resources for a long time,
    Scout found pigs to the south, accessible with a riverside city,
    We're CREative, don't need much tech,
    Go, go Writing into Alphabet.

    City :
    This is a clear case of settler at size 4.
    Capital could train 3 warriors before growing there :
    Spoiler :


    City 2 will immediately start on a Library, so that we can build a Quickademy in the capital.
    This is the place :
    Spoiler :


    And there's a corn city site to the North :
    Spoiler :


    After the settler for city 2 is done,
    Because of the barbarian pressure, the capital builds a couple of chariots, while growing from size 4 to 5.
    We get vision over a new potential city site to the W, ivory and floodplains lying further towards Willem Von Orange.
    Scout found Monty deep in the West. Brennus founded Judaism and will soon spread it to us :
    Spoiler :

    Beshbalik is settled with cows in the 2nd ring to speed up development, while Karak takes up its floodplains.

    2000 BC :
    Still only 2 cities and 1 worker, due to skipping Bronze Working and having to build Chariots.
    Cows city to the W proves more accessible than the corn city to the North, so I'm settling there, next.
    A barb city spawned by the Western floodplains, which is fine, I suppose.
    Scout is still blocked by barbarians but has met Catherine.
    3 turns to the settler, 2 turns to library (hire 2 specs at size 3)
    Spoiler :


    In retrospect, I put some partial turns of farms here and there but I never did farm the floodplains.
    So I guess I would be in a better position (@ Alpha beeline), had I skipped Agriculture.
    It's possible I did not anticipate the timings very well (2 cows, oasis, settler @ size 3, settle pigs, skip agriculture ? Maybe that should be a clear plan on turn 5.).
    I don't know, it's kinda hard to make that decision with corn in the 3rd ring.


    To 1200 BC, end of initial expansion :
    Spoiler :
    1800 BC, the 3rd city is settled by the cows to the west and starts on Barracks.
    Because there is a barb city by our borders and/or we want to invade "someone" (lose intent), it will pump units continuously, except for building its granary.
    Capital has started on a 2nd worker (only) in anticipation for Alphabet and the techs it will unlock (BW, Pottery).
    Spoiler :


    It strikes me as I write this up how stunted my production has been.
    This is no wonder, 2nd city has started gathering gpp and there's no Slavery to hurry settlers/workers.
    I can't say for certain that this path is the route to go.

    1640 BC, I get Alphabet. Again, skipping Agriculture would speed up this tech by, maybe... 6 turns ?
    Granaries are started. Relations with Montezuma are wasted, since Pericles asked that I cut relations with him and I hope to become friendly with Jewish Pericles. Buddhist Monty is also doomed to be isolated.
    Spoiler :


    The following turns are just me revolting into Slavery, Judaism and trading my way into lots of minor stuff.
    I'll actually trade for Sailing to get foreign trade routes, despite how that advances the WFYABTA cap.
    Research is set to Currency. I'm certainly not starting pumping units everywhere right now. I still have the corn spot to settle, workers to produce and at least a barb city to capture. The gold production is currently abysmal, due to the lack of tile improvements.

    1440 BC and I'm just now starting production of the settler for city 4 :
    Spoiler :


    Worker turns are scarce and they do a combination of chopping and cottaging. Now they need to road to the corn spot. The trade route is +2 commerce, so roading isn't necessarily more important than improving a tile.
    Beshbalik is almost size 4 and should likely start a new build (worker/settler) at that point, to complete with whipping after the GP is born.

    1200 BC. City 4 has been planted. A worker will be on duty to improve the corn when borders expand.
    GP comes in next turn. Production has been sacrificed for so long, it's barely reasonable.
    City 3 is about to start on a swordman.
    Spoiler :


    There are spots in the jungle to the south but they require a workforce I do not have.
    Spoiler :


    I almost have the gold to start researching Currency, well earlier than you could see with a BW/Pottery start but (!) that doesn't mean that I'm ahead of the Ais.
    Researching Alphabet early gives them a bonus (Classical Era) and trading it also helps them advance faster. So, the end result has more to do with the pace of the game than with me getting ahead.
    Spoiler :


    To be fair, I hoped to be producing AGG swordsmen at a high rate, at that point, possibly with Monarchy and Mathematics for support.
    Not to happen in this game. To look at things on the bright side, at least I've kept maintenance largely under control and have fancy promotions on my Chariots ^^
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
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  16. elitetroops

    elitetroops Chieftain

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    This map is not edited in any way, but I did swap your starting position with an AI (your settler and AI stack swapped tiles). Is this okay? The reason is that it is a lot easier to find a map where some player starts in a certain kind of situation than to find a map where the human player starts in such a situation.

    Anyway, Stalin should be presented with some challenges on this map.
    Spoiler :


    Edit: forgot to mention - Fractal, no huts/events, otherwise all standard settings.
     

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    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
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  17. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup A Shadow for the Warrior

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    Strange sights and crimson nights @ turn 65 :
    Spoiler :
    turn 22 :
    Spoiler :
    This has potential.
    I'm not sure it is "tough" in the sense Fippy would intend but it certainly involves a lot of difficult decisions.



    Pause the worker, delay the mine, delay the chop, delay the workboat...
    BFC copper... I suspected that could happen. Still need that warrior, though.

    Choking Hannibal most certainly is >>> to rushing him.
    What do you need ? 2 to 3 axes... woodsmen.
    Deny him horses at any cost.
    Lets you focus on expansion / wonders.

    Deciding on the tech path is a headache.
    GLH is very appealing. Also cottages. And there are those cows.
    Need about every early tech.

    I love it !

    turn 56 :
    Spoiler :
    Are you friggin' kiddin' me ???
    2 to 3 axemen to keep him under control ? Sure, sure, good luck with that...



    Of course he had BFC iron hooked up when I came in. And of course he's got another source of copper somewhere in the fog !
    And of course he won't take peace, since he wants a city of mine, instead :lol:
    Nevermind about wonders, they all went by 2000 BC.

    turn 65 :
    Spoiler :
    Man, do you think I'm afraid ? Do you friggin' think I'm afraid ?
    I'll choke you, I tell you ! I'll frigging choke the pulp out of you !



    :lol: I cannot say "lesson learned" but this has been an entertaining experience.

    I think I'll just go back to that first screenshot, turn 22, and get my 2 axemen asap, not :
    - completing the warrior,
    - completing the workboat,
    - completing the barracks,
    And taking my sweet time before things go out of control.

    It's a hard thing learning to "commit" :)
     
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  18. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    lol BiC
    Spoiler :
    i think choking is highly questionable yup, but why not a real Axe rush with bfc copper?
    It's true that you need dozens of Axes (including reinforcements), but imo nothing wrong with trading your Cap hammers (forests) for new ones.
    Normally AIs will not stack like that and send most units out instead for expanding if not declared early, and cease fires after taking a city are so good they are almost broken ;)
     
  19. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup A Shadow for the Warrior

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    Oh, you know why !
    Making the most out of terrible decisions, is there anything better in life ?

    :grouphug:
     
  20. Lain

    Lain Chieftain

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