Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Lain, Jul 19, 2017.
Oh i see where you are going with that bad boy.
Thank you, that overview is great. Look forward to the next game.
After watching the first two videos:
Definitely a rough start! Although you at one point said you misplayed it, I thought you managed to open pretty well, and grabbing a good amount of land despite being pressured from all directions. Shame about the AI ruining so much food and commerce, but what are you gonna do? The AI will AI. Pretty scary to see Joao with 13 cities by 500BC though, holy ****. I do wonder what you would have done without the GLH. If others have shadowed this, when does it usually go? Getting it on Deity never feels like a safe thing, although Organized actually helps a little here.
Although you have the resources for Cuirs and that sounds like how you will break out, such a mammoth Joao will surely (hopefully?) be a big hurdle. Huge Deity AIs can tech crazy fast. Feels like at one moment they have Maces, then you blink, and you see Rifles.
I really like this Zara map, it's a challenge for Lain and other stronger players, but there are a few factors that make it not entierly beyond my own reach.
Zara being creative, and not boxed in by culture maniacs).
Stragetic resources available.
Land topography seems to roughly favour balance between AIs, and ensuring nearby possible targets.
We are on the larger continent, solve the problems here and game is pretty much in the bag, it's the oppositite if you are on a continent with 2 other AIs, and you have to first dominate them and then tackle a few giants on the larger continent.
I played the start two times quick to get a feel for the map and to approve it.
Got GLH in one, and tried a HA rush in the other.
Playing the game through now, (GLH-route) and my plan was a breakout with Oromos+cannons, and then transition that to rifles.
I'm not that confident at my play with cuirs, a my timings are often of the mark.
Also, there is no ToAR on our continent, and no islands either, doesn't that make GMerchants less valuable?
My five GScientists built/bulbed the following:
Academy, Education, Lib, PP, Chemistry
Took Gunpowder from lib as nationalism was already teched and would likely become available in trade.
Half-teched both PP and chemistry before the GScientists arrived, problematic to get enough Gpersons with so few cities.
Had time to beckfill a few techs too.
Landed steel at T154. Missplayed horribly though, as I only had 4 trebs to upgrade with my 1200g stack of cash.
Have way too many oromos (drafted 21 over the first 7 turns of the only GA I'll manage).
My prefered target is certainly Washington because of diplo and topography. But he has MT+gunpowder, so I think I'll have to settle with going for Gilgamesh.
I think this game is winning, crucial factor is that I have two relative weaklings nearby that I can conquer, while there is a relative balance between Saladin and Joao which hate each other.
Screenshots of T155 (beware, have bought map and most of the world is visible in the minimap!)
This is demographics from turn 1. Rival best has 9 tiles (totally landlocked) and one has only 5 land tiles. But hte high average of 7.8 land tiles tell me that most AIs are landlocked. (Not 100% sure if the "Rival average" is the average of just the AIs, or if my value is affecting the average too, but if it's just the AIs, then one AI has 4 water tiles (could be lakes too), and that leaves only 4 water tiles in total for all the other 5 AIs.
So a safe bet is that 2 AIs do have coastal starts.
This makes me think that the GLH is pretty safe, the odds for that AI who has a coastal start being augustus is pretty slim.
I rolled this map recently, I'm not sure it classifies as a tough map, but it definently go it's share of challenges.
Shaka of Zulu
Spoiler Starting Screenshot :
T30 or so spoiler.
Isolation on a godforsaken island. Tundra, plains and deserts.
Hi Lain, you mentioned in of the more recent games that you usually don't build forges when you have the Pyramids. What is the reasoning behind that? Is it because you'll be working mostly food for specialists so there won't be that many hammers for the forge to multiply?
When you are whipping units, you get 30 hammers for a citizen. With a forge (or police-state) you do get 37-38 hammers (can't remember rounding).
If you have both, you get 45 hammers. Going from 30 -> 37 is a bigger percentual increase than going from 37->45.
But it mostly depends on what you are whipping.
Either a forge or police state will enable you to whip cuirs at pop 6 down to pop 3. Most of the time due to natural hammers and overflow, you get to do 2pop whips.
If you are lacking both, you more often have to do 3pop whips, and sometimes you are stuck with a 4pop whip which is problematic.
If you have both police state and forge, you can too often get stuck with 1pop whips, but the main problem is that it's just overkill. Forges are expensive and with police state taking care of whats important one would rather want to whip more units, than another forge.
Right, didn't think of police state - rarely use that civic. Maybe I should give it a go in a game.
Botm 174 with Izzy is not easy at all
(but i guess Lain couldn't record gotm, spoilers)
So here's a map that I thought could provide a solid, but more relatively modest level of challenge. The start for De Gaulle of France:
Fractal, temperate climate, mid sea level, NHNE, all else default
Semi-iso. As in, properly semi-iso. No 5xp Sentry boat shenanigans here
Why it's worth playing should be clear after a bit of scouting. Or a lot of it. It depends...
On this map's relative difficulty (as far as I can tell):
Medium to Easy, I'd say. Not as straightforward as the Genghis map, not as...problematic as the Zara or Willem maps.
I just saw you rated Oromos not too good, Lain
Too bad that i played the Oromo rush game in private with Izuul, they are really strong tbh.
Ofc you can always say but why not Cuirs instead, but then almost all UUs cept the op ones are out.
I like Oromos, getting two promotions for free is really nice.
I was way slower than Lain playing this game, but I did go for Oromos+cannons, and they are really lovely since they reach drill4 already at 5xp (barracks+vassal/theocracy).
This is also preserved after upgrading to rifles.
I should replay this Zara map and make a more serious attempt...
@Fippy Oromo-rush, is that through lib somehow or do you go through the guilds line? Is that treb or catapult assisted?
I went lib-nationalism to draft them.
Oromos upgraded to Machine guns are hilarious.* Can pretty much single-handedly destroy massive stacks. Of course you need to get attacked first, but that can be "arranged". Say, by landing an invasion force on a hill outside an AI capital, with a handful of Drill IV Machine Guns.
I do kinda agree they're not all that hot though. It's the "wrong" unit. I barely ever build any muskets. It feels better to either go for Cuirs or Cannons. And if you go with Cannons, you don't need muskets. Any old crap can clean up just fine. They are certainly useful as stack or city defenders, but I wouldn't spam them as attackers, like you typically do with Cuirs or Cannons+whatever.
*they can be upgraded like that, right? As I was writing this, it dawned on me that I probably used the Chinese UU. It's been a long while.
We used Trebs with Oromos, and often needed little siege support cos 4-7 first strikes + immunity to them + ignoring Castles is really good.
(need only 5xp for Drill IV)
Think we used double Edu bulb to unlock Gunpowder.
Tested upgrading one to Rifle, they keep Drill IV but lose 1 first strike (3-6 left)
Only Maces, Pikes and Crossbows can be upgraded into Machine Guns, through Grenadiers. Muskets will only upgrade into Rifles, which will only upgrade into Infantry.
Never really understood the logic for this btw. I guess those three units are supposed to be offensive ones, and so upgrade to the offensive gren unit, but then the upgrade to that is a purely defensive unit?
If there is logic behind that decision I imagine it was based on logic that you won't find in BTS, especially current Deity-level BTS strategy.
Botm 174 is bananas.
It turned all my best traits into weaknesses.
Right, I suppose so. This makes about as little sense as how they decided to implement combat, leading to weirdness like C1/C2 cuirs getting 62% odds against C1/C2 phants on offense but only 38%-ish odds on defense. Though in all fairness, the way %-against bonuses work (CR, CG, etc.) was needed to make trebs not useless (+100% of 4 strength is a pitiful bonus but it's more useful when you reduce the same percentage of a unit with greater strength), longbows slightly better against defenders, and cannons not completely OP against longbows while useless against infantry (generally when attacking against % bonuses are more useful the greater the enemy's strength in proportion to yours).
Cheers. Then it must indeed have been the Chinese Xbow I was using at that time. Was a fun game, though. From back when I barely knew what was up and down in this game.
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