Powering Japan

[rah]

The % is somewhat dependent on the map script and world size so people that usually play one type or another will experience a bias in the %

 

[Bibor]

Hunting & Fishing are even and situational, you guys can chat about this all day but..

So, if they are even... in the Pacal isolation game, if you had Ivory in BFC, would you go fishing or hunting first?

 

[Fippy]

Well not sure which Pacal game you mean
Ivory is fine, but not really important when considering starting techs.
If i need AH urgently i will be happy about hunting, and with good seafood fishing..i see no reason why one should be rated higher than the other, in general.

 

[Bibor]

Well not sure which Pacal game you mean

I was reading up on the team pacal isolation game from early 2018 you guys played as a team. Your started with no seafood yet decided to go fishing after agri (for the commerce bonus I presume). I might be remembering it wrong.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The % is somewhat dependent on the map script and world size so people that usually play one type or another will experience a bias in the %

It is very dependent on map script. There are multiple scripts with 100% and 0% chance of coastal start respectively.

 

[Bibor]

It is very dependent on map script. There are multiple scripts with 100% and 0% chance of coastal start respectively.

TMIT is alive!

 

[Johnstrain]

I think AGG is my favourite trait and whenever people complain about AGG, I'm always thinking that they are playing with barbs off.

Agg is a close equivalent of having archery from the start. And with toku (or any leader that doens't have hunting already) that is such a massive beaker saving in the start.
Build a barracks early and if you got like one mine in your capital you can feel 100% safe against barbs untill axes start showing up since pairs of warriors with shock stand a very decent chance even against spears.

Agg gives you phenomenal chances of axerushes, and it has lasting value too. Having all your units able to promote to pinch right away is really huge.
Other nice tricks can be pulled of too, such as hitting all of one AIs coastal starts with amphibious grenadiers...

Say wha..
Amph. generaders??? Tell me more...
Japan sam (the knife guys...not gun guys) do do decently if promoted right. Js

 

[krikav]

You start with combat1, so all you need is to promote combat2 and then you can promote amphibious. So you only need a barracks and either one of vassalage or theocracy, and you can promote all granadiers to amphibious right away.
It makes it possible to hit targets (certainly backwards ones. With the aid of some bombarding from frigates (or ship of the line), and then you just jump in with the granadiers.
No steel needed!
Military Science is bulbable after bulbing chemistry too.

I'm currently playing around with LHC82, where we play as boudica (Charismatic), and I think this will play a role in the attack.

2 scientists to bulb astro, one to half-bulb chemistry and then you can bulb military science (if you avoid civil service.)

 

[Johnstrain]

You start with combat1, so all you need is to promote combat2 and then you can promote amphibious. So you only need a barracks and either one of vassalage or theocracy, and you can promote all granadiers to amphibious right away.
It makes it possible to hit targets (certainly backwards ones. With the aid of some bombarding from frigates (or ship of the line), and then you just jump in with the granadiers.
No steel needed!
Military Science is bulbable after bulbing chemistry too.

I'm currently playing around with LHC82, where we play as boudica (Charismatic), and I think this will play a role in the attack.

2 scientists to bulb astro, one to half-bulb chemistry and then you can bulb military science (if you avoid civil service.)

Thanks for this. I'll try it next 18civ scen as China. Mutters toself...try with zepings too. Js

 

[krikav]

One time long ago, on immortal difficulty, I managed to lib physics and had loads of fun with rifles+galleons+frigates+zeppelins.

 

[Johnstrain]

One time long ago, on immortal difficulty, I managed to lib physics and had loads of fun with rifles+galleons+frigates+zeppelins.

How did that work out? Saw the transports in line trick..thinking 2try that as well. Js

 

[krikav]

Frigates bombard cities, then you attack with zeppelins to get the top defenders damaged, and then rifles jump at them from boats.
Restation more zeppelins into captured cities, repeat.

 

[DrakeD]

I think this is a useful simple way to think about civ's and starting techs:

Agriculture, mining and the wheel are good, fishing myst and hunting are bad.
Civ's that start with 2 of the good tech's are excellent! Starting with 1 of the good tech's is okay, while starting with 2 bad tech's is horrible. Try a game with spain or celts to see what I mean. Ofc starting with deer or fish changes this, but still a useful simple way to think about it.

Japan has 1 good tech and the bad one is fishing. This alone is enough to say that Toku is average imo.
Beelining Civil Service, Construction and Machinery can be good. Drill Samurais might delay the need for trebuchets. They can go pretty far with catapults as support.
Drafted rifles is like a second samurai! Promotions from both traits.

 

[Johnstrain]

Thanks for inputting it helps. JS

 

[Gumbolt]

I was reading up on the team pacal isolation game from early 2018 you guys played as a team. Your started with no seafood yet decided to go fishing after agri (for the commerce bonus I presume). I might be remembering it wrong.

AZ says 'need fishing early for commerce'. Which is not suprising given jungle and isolated start. There is a river but it's covered in jungle. So 2f3c coast tiles with a lighthouse make equivalent to early cottage tiles. Albeit they will not improve over time. Unless you build The Colossus which would make coastal tiles great.

 

[Fish Man]

AZ says 'need fishing early for commerce'. Which is not suprising given jungle and isolated start. There is a river but it's covered in jungle. So 2f3c coast tiles with a lighthouse make equivalent to early cottage tiles. Albeit they will not improve over time. Unless you build The Colossus which would make coastal tiles great.

Adding to that...you *do* need fishing, because your 1st and 2nd city sites have fish in their BFC.

 

[coanda]

Japan has 1 good tech and the bad one is fishing. This alone is enough to say that Toku is average imo.

Has average starting techs, sure. Toku, overall, is not average. He has one of the worst trait combos, one of the worst UBs, a UU that is slightly above average, and techs that are about average. Put it all together and you've got a very sub-par leader.

 

[Wrathful]

Yep, Toku is definitely one of the worst leaders in the game. Early pottery is pretty much the only thing he has going for him. And if you need AH, you're in trouble.

I've never understood why people like Toku's rifles so much. The boost from PRO is pretty negligible. You get extra defense in cities, which is worthless when you're attacking. You also get Drill 1, which gives a single first strike chance...a rather unimpressive boost. You could continue down the Drill line, but I'd rather go down the Combat line for stuff like Pinch and Formation. Leaders like Alex and Ragnar retain the more important Combat 1 promotion and will also reach Rifling faster due to better traits.

His UB and UU are ok but lackluster. UB comes too late and the boost isn't very great. The UU has some nice boosts, but on Deity you probably won't reach Civil Service and Machinery before your opponent gets longbowmen. You can't even bulb Engineering because Toku starts with Fishing.

Of course, some of the other leaders are pretty bad too...Charlie and Saladin come to mind. But they have better traits. Saladin's UB is actually pretty good, mainly because you build libraries so often anyway.

 

[lymond]

Well, the shale plant at face value is one of the better bonus over base UBs. Granted, most high value UBs are early ones with bonuses that can be realized in terms of optimal gameplay, like the Terrace and Ikhanda. But really, when you look at UBs as a whole, most of them are rather insignificant. I'm talkin' a majority of the UBs are inconsequential, and in many cases like the real late ones just plain a non-factor.

Shale Plant, like the coal plant, is the earliest of the power plants. It does not require coal, and if I recall correctly, with or without having coal, you only get the +2 unhealthy...like the later hydros. In addition, you get a rather significant +10% hammers at a point in the game where many cities will have high hammer output. If I"m sending Toku to space, I'm building those shale plants. Granted, for most VCs outside Space most optimal type players likely ain't building power plants, but still it is a very solid building for Space games. Not completely irrelevant. I think it is not one of the worst UBs, considering that a very high percentage of all UBs I would never build in any game. It's quite a solid building relatively speaking.

 

[Fippy]

True..out of can go pottery first and Toku Rifles yay,
Shale Plants are the only part of that trio with some proven value, for me
They are late but good.

Pottery first i.e. makes no sense thou, why would we ever do that?
Means we either have no food (and need no Agri or AH, not even mentioning mining or BW),
or seafood in which case we would not build a worker first (for pottery..)