Praets At Deity at Normal Speed

[civvver]

Oh I'm not being negative, I love the Caesars just for their traits anyway. Praetorian are like an added bonus. Really, like many things, it's very map dependant. If you have a commerce resource (to tech iron working) and iron nearby praets can be devastating, just like jaguars and holkans are the best UUs if you have zero metals close.

 

[Seraiel]

It's becoming even more funny :>

Not 1 weak ago, I posted a 4 gold start with medium - low food, and half of the forums was sure, that that start was underaverage or even bad, because of low food (had 4 FP's and 1 Rice) and low production (yer, 4 goldmines and about 7 grassland hills are low production :>) and now, the same people say Praets are bad, because they crash the economy

I only say head -> table to that

It's like Civver and others say, the early rushes are about commerce, start with some Gold or Gems and choose your victory condition, and it's absolutely not like Obsolete wants to point out, that Praets are bad, because they're slow. Slow units simply have to be more powerful then their defenders, then it doesn't matter if the defender can whip / reinforce heavily, one just gets more GG-points for killing more units, must be pretty funny with IMP SPQR :>

But don't listen, this just comes from a n00b who is just playing another 1M+ game on Deity with "no, that is too cheesy for me" Mr. Huanya Capac, having started with tripple gold and -8F in the BFC

 

[obsolete]

...That's why those people who'd seem to think that praetorians are all that great don't really know what they're talking about"

And he's 100% right. But that's never going to convince players until they move up to a more challenging level, and start to really pay for their misconceptions. But some, will just never figure it out, and assume deity just is unwinnable or they simply get too much bad luck all the time.

 

[MarigoldRan]

I'm not quite sure why you say praetorian are a good medieval unit. Maces and crossbows tear them to shreads. On the offensive they can't take down longbows without siege. They're good for one thing, sword rushing archers prior to construction.

They're cheap. Really, really cheap.

 

[cbucks]

A million points? That's awesome. Any pics or videos or thread?

 

[obsolete]

They're cheap. Really, really cheap.

Sounds like you never used the draft button then....

 

[MarigoldRan]

A million points? That's awesome. Any pics or videos or thread?

Yes, actually. Seraiel got mentioned in the front of the civ fanatics page for something like: "Congratulations to Seraiel for getting top HOF score of 1 million +".

 

[MarigoldRan]

Sounds like you never used the draft button then....

I was hoping to end the game before it.

 

[Seraiel]

A million points? That's awesome. Any pics or videos or thread?

As Marigold said, look on the frontpage or the #1 points game on huge or wait until I post the "Replay #2" But I don't wanna get cocky over that, actually I aimed for early domination on Pangea in that game and was nearly 1k years slower than Kovacsflo, though Kovacsflo played a different patch version, of which I do not know if it matters much. My main goal is to have fun with the game, and in my actual game I'm again playing Big & Small again and try to crack 1M by far by using Sushi and low sealvl, but again, I don't think I will beat the 3M Wastintime set as an overall record.

I was hoping to end the game before it.

lol, just wanted to say that

games are over before drafting ever plays a significant role with the right leader and the right start

 

[WelshGandalf]

I know Immortal is a different kettle of fish, but in a recent GOTM I took out 2 civs with just praetorians, then paired them up with catapults and a few elephants to take out most of a third (Alexander). On the offence the catapults & praets-in-numbers cut through their defences (even longbows); if they attacked me then the elephants took the pain from their crossbowmen/shock axes/mounted units.

I'm more of an emperor player so this was a rare win on Immortal for me (so don't think I'm telling you all how to do it - this post is just an observation which I thought might be interesting as part of the discussion). I was a massive distance behind on tech but with all the land I mostly self-teched myself back into the game. I think the circumstances around it were fairly unique though. For example Alexander completer ruined his teching rate with his all-out war and consequent massive war weariness, which kept the preatorians competitive for longer than they normally are (the others were close to rifles by the time our war was done...).

I would guess MarigoldRan would hope for something similar to this to happen on Deity, but he doesn't think you need catapults? Looking forwards to the game thread anyhow.

 

[Dirk1302]

It's becoming even more funny :>

Not 1 weak ago, I posted a 4 gold start with medium - low food, and half of the forums was sure, that that start was underaverage or even bad, because of low food (had 4 FP's and 1 Rice) and low production (yer, 4 goldmines and about 7 grassland hills are low production :>) and now, the same people say Praets are bad, because they crash the economy

I only say head -> table to that

It's like Civver and others say, the early rushes are about commerce, start with some Gold or Gems and choose your victory condition, and it's absolutely not like Obsolete wants to point out, that Praets are bad, because they're slow. Slow units simply have to be more powerful then their defenders, then it doesn't matter if the defender can whip / reinforce heavily, one just gets more GG-points for killing more units, must be pretty funny with IMP SPQR :>

But don't listen, this just comes from a n00b who is just playing another 1M+ game on Deity with "no, that is too cheesy for me" Mr. Huanya Capac, having started with tripple gold and -8F in the BFC

Well that's just the point isn't it? If you're really good just take toku as your leader , roll a decent but not ridiculously good deity start, play the map (and lose it) and post the start to see if others do better and learn from them.

Go on playing Q rushes and i'll keep laughing, that's not playing real civ. Sometimes i doubt this forum is about real civ anymore, more and more it's about rolling, rerolling, early strike units, winning before currency, if not give up try another. Pathetic.

Edit: Then again i began with reading the last too lines of your post. You might imo well be right about the rest, i find it too hard to comment upon praets without more experience. As is said before praets need lots of advance scouting in order to avoid the impossible cities. Best you take one civ out completely (to avoid having culturally pressed cities) but if that is not possible take as many cities from more than one civ but be sure that those cities are worth it (so not culturally pressed too much).

 

[Manco Capac]

Well that's just the point isn't it? If you're really good just take toku as your leader , roll a decent but not ridiculously good deity start, play the map (and lose it) and post the start to see if others do better and learn from them.

Go on playing Q rushes and i'll keep laughing, that's not playing real civ. Sometimes i doubt this forum is about real civ anymore, more and more it's about rolling, rerolling, early strike units, winning before currency, if not give up try another. Pathetic.

By forum, do you mean the whole civ4 forum? I think SGOTM and XOTM games are quite honorable though...

 

[Seraiel]

Well that's just the point isn't it? If you're really good just take toku as your leader , roll a decent but not ridiculously good deity start, play the map (and lose it) and post the start to see if others do better and learn from them.

Go on playing Q rushes and i'll keep laughing, that's not playing real civ. Sometimes i doubt this forum is about real civ anymore, more and more it's about rolling, rerolling, early strike units, winning before currency, if not give up try another. Pathetic.

You're really frustrated, aren't you? :> Perhaps you should try out HC sometime, could help ease your pain you got from losing too often

And I will try out other leaders, you can be sure of that, but actually there's so much for me to learn about Deity and HC, and winning on Deity and scoring high is just so much fun, I'll take my time for that, and nobody not having played a Huge Domination against 17 Civs is going to rush me into that.

Interessting though, that you think you alone could judge what "real Civ" is about. Imho you know very little about it, if you only accept others that play by the same rules you do, and if you think all HC games are won before Currency, well, just play the map from "Replay #2" I'm now going to post, in contrary to your games, you'll have a ridiculous good start with that one and you'll have a really strong leader, you might actually HAVE FUN, though I dought it :>

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Sounds like you never used the draft button then....

I can never find it. There's this giant "win" icon above the slavery/rush buy options though .

BTW, one can't reliably use marathon experience to make a case for prats on normal. It's bogus, and if you don't believe me then try it out a bunch of times (grashopa put some games up anyway). Instead of killing 2+ people before longbows, there's a good chance you don't even take more than 2-3 cities before your target has them lateish BCs. You don't heal triple speed, you don't move triple speed, and the AI production (with deity bonuses) relative to your move speed is much, much greater.

They can be done against the likes of gandhi, pacal, etc. Try to hit an AGG leader w/o a super start with your 8-prats and go ahead and cry when you run into a wall city with 4 axes a spear and 2 archers. See how that goes for you.

I've played all the speeds, cooked starts for marabuse where I could roflstomp with prats on deity no problem, and been massacred while attempting the same rushes in other situations. The reality is that prat rush on deity/normal is VERY situational. If you pick rome and go into every game thinking you're going to rush on deity normal, you are going to lose or quit well over half of your games...probably over 3/4...

BTW, dirk has trounced some very difficult games over the years with crummy leaders. It's not like he can't lose but he doesn't need the crutches of cooked games like some of us (me included, if I'm not busy cheese weaseling ).

 

[Dirk1302]

@Seraiel, I don't see where the "frustated" line is coming from. Are we having a real discussion here or not?

Further do i need to take you seriously? I have tried out almost every leader on deity and i don't lose that often (though it does happen from time to time), why do you suggest i do?

You're of course right that you have much to learn. Then again you're wrong that huge and many leaders make it difficult, it makes it easier for human players because they have more trade/diplo leverage.

I'm not claiming that i alone can judge what "real civ" is about. But what you're doing and what you're suggesting in the last 4 lines in your post just confirms what i already know.You take a skewed start, everything in your favor but yes it's deity level. Well That is not deity level, as i said before. Take an average start with Toku lose it as i'm sure you will and see if better players can win it.

If you can do all that then win an AW game on deity, then we're really talking. But more realistically just try to win Toku on immortal normal speed. If you can't do that don't bother me any longer with this sort of babble.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm not sure toku on immortal/normal is as hard as even a cooked deity/normal start...deity is such a different ballgame from immortal.

Maybe I'm just biased after those 2 toku games on here recently where it was just draftspanking all game until the end.

 

[obsolete]

ROFLMFAO @ the bullsh!t Seraiel said in his last post (not to mention others). So now he knows more than Dirk TOO even...

Obviously, Seraiel seems to also be well aware of the general rule we have on the 'other' side of the forums, where the rookies ALWAYS know more than the top players. It seems that's how it always has been at civfanatics, no matter how old this game gets. And it isn't until they start trying to crack immortal when they FORGET everything they know and seem to struggle and have to admit they don't know everything anymore.

Seraiel, please don't every try to play true-deity.... we can't afford to have you not know everything anymore when that happens.

We've lost too many self-proclaimed experts on the forum over the years as it is.

BTW, Dirk has been around for a while, and has a strong reputation for the hardest of games. I guess that means he probably needs all the help he can get right now...

 

[TheWilltoAct]

You're really frustrated, aren't you? :> Perhaps you should try out HC sometime, could help ease your pain you got from losing too often

I stopped reading.

 

[Dirk1302]

@TMIT, agreed but even then let this Sera guy win a normal game on that level , then we talk further. I have no time for this sort of nonsense and won't react to it further if he can't do that, i wanted to make that perfectly clear.

I appreciate your comment in the post before, i don't play that many games nowadays but i loved playing the hard games then.It really took a lot of time to do it though (also writing extensive reports about it) and i find it hard to find the motivation to do it again on a regular basis. I have always thought that you can do it too if you can bring up the patience.

 

[Mylene]

It really took a lot of time to do it though (also writing extensive reports about it) and i find it hard to find the motivation to do it again on a regular basis.

No kidding ~~
When/if i check the time of my "private" games it is usually...4h played, maybe 5 or sometimes 6...when i look at the forum games where i spend half the time thinking what i should write and where to take screenies...your Justi game ended up as 16h i think