Pre-ChaNES: Into the Void

[North King]

The chances for political control have indeed been narrowed for corporations, but such entities have never really been interested in political control, with the exception of stupidly overreaching CEOs. Companies are almost always better off working within the framework of government, and with vastly expanded markets and trade that is practically free by necessity, space could not be a better environment for them.

 

[alex994]

Not to mention that political control just isn't profitable if a corporation wants to keep said political control from civil unrest.

 

[North King]

Yes, but the point I was making was more along the lines that corporations have more power in this context than ever before -- they merely lack political clout.

 

[a_propagandist]

Perhaps Vert was going for research into the effect of Stigma particles on biological functions and so on?

 

[Symphony D.]

Retroactive deletion.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Yes, but the point I was making was more along the lines that corporations have more power in this context than ever before -- they merely lack political clout.

Yeah, that's the sort of situation I'd like in this NES, at least at this point.

OOC: As I said, were there something to noted, it would have been. There has been enough time for any sort of effect to be revealed, even if it was not the thing being looked for. Interaction is inherently negligible to nonexistent through the very fundamental properties of the Stigma particle.

This is also correct.

 

[TerrisH]

Inspiration has struck, and I will soon be bringing you a sketch of he ocelot's successor design, the Apis class Carrier-freighter.

Edit: do not feel like a double post. so I'll put it here. behold my sketch!

not the best, but decent.

the Apis Class Freighter:
while the Ocelot was designed for the transport of civilian corvettes and large quantities of fright between star systems, it simply proved to big for the job. Originally intended to spend only a few days in system, and spend most of it's time in transit between systems. instead, It was spending months simply waiting for enough cargo to be gathered to make the trip worthwhile. while still excellent for moving corvettes and large-scale cargo between systems, a smaller version was needed that could be built cheaper and not take quite so long to gather cargo for.

and so the Apis was born. approximately 1/3rd the size of ocelot, it fit it's projected niche quite well, capable of transporting hundreds of standard cargo containers a trip, or up to three Corvettes. it was even equipped with an experimental MAGRAM system to act as a ramscoop during it's trips between the stars, collecting the interstellar hydrogen that normally was picked up by transiting sigma ships and funneling it into fuel tanks, essentially re-fueling the ship each transit for it's next trip.

 

[Symphony D.]

OOC: Nice idea, but completely unworkable.

1. Proton-Proton fusion (that afforded by molecular hydrogen) is basically useless compared to other fusion forms. Bussard himself advocated using carbon to improve the reaction, but then you're stuck hauling carbon around.
2. To collect enough fuel to power a mission to Alpha Centauri, a scoop would need to be 650km across. Admittedly, not needing to derive all power from the field reduces the necessary size.
3. The technology to simply "project" a magnetic field out into space of the scope envisioned simply does not exist.
4. There is no evidence the majority of the interstellar medium is dense enough to support such intake anyway.
5. Collection of matter during FTL travel is extremely implausible. Using the formula for kinetic energy, E=(1/2)mv², and assuming luminal speeds (c, 299,792,458m/s), the energy of a single hydrogen atom impacting is equivalent to E=(1/2)(1.674×10^−27kg)(299,792,458m/s)²=7.5258x10^-11J. That doesn't sound like a lot until you consider 3.5x10^-11J is the total energy release of a plutonium-239 atom undergoing fission. So, in any sort of "dense" (relatively) medium, this is the equivalent of an atomic bomb hitting the front of your spacecraft every minute or so the output of 188,679 100MT bombs hitting the front of the spacecraft every second, assuming the front is a square 100m per side, and you are traveling in a cold neutral medium of 35 atoms/cm³ at 1000c.
   
   These impacts will also of course spew out lots of exotic particles and radiation, assuming they hit something and stop instead of punching straight on through. Since these ships travel at several hundred to thousands of times c, and are not routinely destroyed due to particle abrasion and hard radiation, the only logical explanation is that an object accelerated to FTL is "out of phase" with ordinary matter, and is only affected by the degree to which mass warps space-time.

To summarize: hydrogen is a terrible fuel, there probably isn't enough of it, your ship is nowhere near large enough to collect any meaningful amounts of it, and even if the first three weren't true, it's impossible to collect anyway. Also, I don't know what's up with the front of the ship, but it looks nothing like a Bussard ramjet either.

[EDIT] Here's some more precision math:

Mass Hydrogen Atom (1): 1.674×10^−27kg
Velocity of Spacecraft: 299,792,458,000m/s
Kinetic Energy Per Atom: 7.52258x10^-5J
Density of Cold Neutral Medium: 35 atom/cm³ = 35,000,000 atom/m³
Front Spacecraft Profile: 100m²
Volume Transited/Second: 299,792,458,000*100 = 29,979,245,800,000m³
Power Output in Watts (J/s): 7.8932x10^16 Watt , 8 Petawatts (PW)

Nearest Comparison:
- 174.0 PW: Total energy flux of Earth per year (Kardashev Type I Civilization--approximate sum total of all current [2145] human power generation)

So, to summarize, every 22 seconds the front of a spacecraft of such dimensions would be receiving the total of all human power produced annually due to kinetic bombardment. It takes years to get to certain systems.

 

[TerrisH]

OOC: Nice idea, but completely unworkable.

1. Proton-Proton fusion (that afforded by molecular hydrogen) is basically useless compared to other fusion forms. Bussard himself advocated using carbon to improve the reaction, but then you're stuck hauling carbon around.
2. To collect enough fuel to power a mission to Alpha Centauri, a scoop would need to be 650km across. Admittedly, not needing to derive all power from the field reduces the necessary size.
3. The technology to simply "project" a magnetic field out into space of the scope envisioned simply does not exist.
4. There is no evidence the majority of the interstellar medium is dense enough to support such intake anyway.
5. Collection of matter during FTL travel is extremely implausible. Using the formula for kinetic energy, E=(1/2)mv², and assuming luminal speeds (c, 299,792,458m/s), the energy of a single hydrogen atom impacting is equivalent to E=(1/2)(1.674×10^−27kg)(299,792,458m/s)²=7.5258x10^-11J. That doesn't sound like a lot until you consider 3.5x10^-11J is the total energy release of a plutonium-239 atom undergoing fission. So, in any sort of "dense" (relatively) medium, this is the equivalent of an atomic bomb hitting the front of your spacecraft every minute or so the output of 188,679 100MT bombs hitting the front of the spacecraft every second, assuming the front is a square 100m per side, and you are traveling in a cold neutral medium of 35 atoms/cm³ at 1000c.
   
   These impacts will also of course spew out lots of exotic particles and radiation, assuming they hit something and stop instead of punching straight on through. Since these ships travel at several hundred to thousands of times c, and are not routinely destroyed due to particle abrasion and hard radiation, the only logical explanation is that an object accelerated to FTL is "out of phase" with ordinary matter, and is only affected by the degree to which mass warps space-time.

To summarize: hydrogen is a terrible fuel, there probably isn't enough of it, your ship is nowhere near large enough to collect any meaningful amounts of it, and even if the first three weren't true, it's impossible to collect anyway. Also, I don't know what's up with the front of the ship, but it looks nothing like a Bussard ramjet either.

A: I did not know that. though the reactor only has to be used one each trip to charge the capacitors for the sigma drive. Carbon can be loaded with the cargo to boost the reaction.

B: yes, I do have such a field. approved by chad two turns ago. designed for a different reason, but I have it. a variation of it is on the falcons, though it's more concentrated and serves a different purpose. still, 650 seems a little extreme, I was thinking something more the size of the ship funneling what would normally hit it into a single collection facility.

C: true, but it has not been disprove. however, in this universe, their is a lot of evidence pointing toward such a medium. also see point D.

D: It's very possible. ALL sigma craft do it, it's a built in part of their physics. read them, learn them. Sigma craft do not go out of phase, they are encompassed in a field. and lowish mass object that the ship collides with the field while the craft is in transit is also accelerated to FTL. this what lengthens the transit time of interstellar jaunts so much, and consumes much to the power used to make the jaunts. you really need to read up on your sigma physics.

E: the scoop is more of a collector then a ram scoop, funneling the stuff collected for consumption after the ship gets to it's desalination.

F: I also intend for it to do something complealty different then what I said in it's description. that's merely what we put out for public consumption. it might work as I said, it might not, or in might and also do something completely different. you will have to wait till next update to see the truth, though I will confirm if you guess it. (or attempting to do. it might work, it might not. don't know yet.)

 

[Chandrasekhar]

B: yes, I do have such a field. approved by chad two turns ago. designed for a different reason, but I have it.

Are you sure I approved that? I may have approved research on the subject, but not all research bears fruit.

D: It's very possible. ALL sigma craft do it, it's a built in part of their physics. read them, learn them. Sigma craft do not go out of phase, they are encompassed in a field. and lowish mass object that the ship collides with the field while the craft is in transit is also accelerated to FTL. this what lengthens the transit time of interstellar jaunts so much, and consumes much to the power used to make the jaunts. you really need to read up on your sigma physics.

I've pretty much explicitly stated that the principle works in the past, but I wasn't aware of quite how much the existing laws of physics were being stretched to accomodate it. I dislike having to wave away any more of the laws of physics than I already am, so the specifics of Stigma physics will have to be retconned. Supposing that intervening particles of matter must be shunted to the side, rather than absorbed into the field, would keep the basic gameplay mechanic, while also avoiding any need to use "phasing out" as an explanation. It'd also make the concept of your new ship's drive unworkable, but that's unavoidable.

 

[Symphony D.]

A: I did not know that. though the reactor only has to be used one each trip to charge the capacitors for the sigma drive. Carbon can be loaded with the cargo to boost the reaction.

OOC: You also need Nitrogen and Oxygen, in roughly equal ratio to the Hydrogen that is retrieved. You also don't get much hydrogen.

still, 650 seems a little extreme, I was thinking something more the size of the ship funneling what would normally hit it into a single collection facility.

Using these:

Mass Hydrogen Atom (1): 1.674×10^−27kg
Density of Cold Neutral Medium: 35 atom/cm³ = 35,000,000 atom/m³
Front Spacecraft Profile: 100m²
Volume Transited/Second: 299,792,458,000*100 = 29,979,245,800,000m³

You receive 1.04927x10^21 hydrogen atoms per second. Or, 0.0000017565kg/s. 0.15176kg/day. 55.3925kg/year. Not exactly substantial. I could work out how much power that'd produce you with the CNO Cycle, but I'd rather not and just say it'd be very little.

C: true, but it has not been disprove. however, in this universe, their is a lot of evidence pointing toward such a medium. also see point D.

The only places where hydrogen is much denser than in Cold Neutral Medium is in Molecular Clouds or H II regions--in other words, in nebulas, which do not comprise the majority of space. The majority of space is also not CNM. So the figure I just quoted you is probably optimistic.

D: It's very possible. ALL sigma craft do it, it's a built in part of their physics. read them, learn them. Sigma craft do not go out of phase, they are encompassed in a field. and lowish mass object that the ship collides with the field while the craft is in transit is also accelerated to FTL. this what lengthens the transit time of interstellar jaunts so much, and consumes much to the power used to make the jaunts. you really need to read up on your sigma physics.

Or I can use real physics to prove why they're bad. It's called inertia. The particles are effectively at rest relative to space. The kinetic energy of the particles along the way assumes they are moving at the velocity of the ship--if we use the ship as our frame of reference, then the particles are moving at that velocity relative to it (in the negative direction). If they enter some field of effect and are dragged along by it then their velocity vectors must be changed, and they must be accelerated in the positive direction such that their velocity relative to the ship becomes zero. Transiting from 1000c to zero velocity in any reasonable time for an uncontrolled object like a particle is impossible. They will enter such a field and tear a ship to pieces long before coming to rest relative to it.

Again you're dealing with more energy every 22 seconds than the human race produces annually. I don't care what magic voodoo Stigma physics relies upon--the initial energy allotment is achievable by humans, and therefore cannot conceivably stop something that is totally beyond their grasp. The dialogue basically goes:

Hydrogen: I'm the Juggernaut, . .. .. .. .. .!
Humans: ... damn.

Stigma mechanics as described effectively don't make sense.

E: the scoop is more of a collector then a ram scoop, funneling the stuff collected for consumption after the ship gets to it's desalination.

And, as proven by simple algebra, you need vast areas to gain any appreciable quantity of hydrogen over time.

Supposing that intervening particles of matter must be shunted to the side, rather than absorbed into the field, would keep the basic gameplay mechanic, while also avoiding any need to use "phasing out" as an explanation.

Which is basically an Alcubierre warp bubble. Stuff doesn't get in or out of the bubble due to tidal stresses on the periphery. In such an instance, the Stigma particle is functioning as a source of negative energy density, and can just be said to be adversely affected by high gravitational fields.

 

[TerrisH]

Are you sure I approved that? I may have approved research on the subject, but not all research bears fruit.

the were designed 2 turns ago, and put into production last turn. falcons had a primitive version with a feild diamater of about 1KM. meh, I detail the exact intnetions later

I've pretty much explicitly stated that the principle works in the past, but I wasn't aware of quite how much the existing laws of physics were being stretched to accomodate it. I dislike having to wave away any more of the laws of physics than I already am, so the specifics of Stigma physics will have to be retconned. Supposing that intervening particles of matter must be shunted to the side, rather than absorbed into the field, would keep the basic gameplay mechanic, while also avoiding any need to use "phasing out" as an explanation. It'd also make the concept of your new ship's drive unworkable, but that's unavoidable.

why it works as it is. you do not need to to bow down and worship the un-logic that is symphony.


at most, the amount of dust picked up and accelerated by the ship is a few hundred pounds, a mere fraction of the ships weight. to accelerate them in the intral-less field of the drive increase the power output a few percent. the partials can never actual collide with the ship at FTL speeds, since inside the field, time dose not exist, they frozen in the moment the instant they enter the field.. when the ship drops out, the partials resume theri normal momentum form before the jump, and scatter in a small cloud of dust. some might spontaneously fuse, lighting the cloud up, and giving it the classic water shed light pattern several sci-fi FTL drives are famous for.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

If the increased energy from fusing the gathered hydrogen is so small, it seems like there's not much of a point to adding and powering the collector in the first place. So, there are a few reasons why the design doesn't really make sense in this setting.

 

[Symphony D.]

why it works as it is. you do not need to to bow down and worship the un-logic that is symphony.

OOC: Yes, I am highly un-logic, with my maths, facts, figures, science...

at most, the amount of dust picked up and accelerated by the ship is a few hundred pounds, a mere fraction of the ships weight.

For a short interval of time, no, it is significantly less. I just did the math. Apparently you can't be bothered to pay attention to un-logic like algebra.

to accelerate them in the intral-less field of the drive increase the power output a few percent.

If you use magic instead of un-logic like physics, yes.

the partials can never actual collide with the ship at FTL speeds, since inside the field, time dose not exist, they frozen in the moment the instant they enter the field.

Which is why there are stasis pods. Freezing time once is un-logic, you have to do it twice!

when the ship drops out, the partials resume theri normal momentum form before the jump, and scatter in a small cloud of dust.

Conservation of momentum? Un-logic!

Woe betide the un-logic of the intelligentsia! TerrisH's Grand Unified Theory of Sci-Fi Bullcrap is in town now, suckers! I pity the foo'!

 

[TerrisH]

the sigma drive works as it is. it produces inrtialess acceleration, and move the ship in an instant (at least to the point of view of the matter in the field) from point A to point B. anything between those points, as long as it dose not exceed the capacity of the field, is also swept up by the field. when the field is expended, all matter in the field resumes the momentum it had when it entered the field. energy to move these particals to FTL speed is is included when the field generated.

it works just as well as your phase version, and dose not require the description to be changed.

And the only way you can say it can't work is by saying the sigma drive dose not work at all.

 

[Symphony D.]

A wizard did it.

OOC: Oh, I see. It all makes sense now.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

the sigma drive works as it is. it produces inrtialess acceleration, and move the ship in an instant (at least to the point of view of the matter in the field) from point A to point B. anything between those points, as long as it dose not exceed the capacity of the field, is also swept up by the field. when the field is expended, all matter in the field resumes the momentum it had when it entered the field. energy to move these particals to FTL speed is is included when the field generated.

But this was never a part of the description of Stigma physics. Time doesn't stop in a Stigma field (hence the need for life support on the ships) and inertia isn't cancelled.

it works just as well as your phase version, and dose not require the description to be changed.

I don't intend to use any wonky "phasing" stuff either. It just shunts matter aside instead of absorbing it into the field. There's really no reason for it to be the other way. As Symphony has shown, even if for some reason the incredible kinetic energy blasting apart the front of the ship wasn't a factor, the energy you'd get from fusing all of the hydrogen would be so minor that it wouldn't be worth building a collection mechanism and that type of fusion reactor, and carrying all that equipment along.

 

[Symphony D.]

and move the ship in an instant (at least to the point of view of the matter in the field) from point A to point B.

OOC: Also wrong. How have you missed the repeated references to it requiring years to get to the edges of human space? It's not often somebody argues a point without even knowing what their own position is supposed to be.

 

[TerrisH]

OOC: Oh, I see. It all makes sense now.

... please, do not resort to insult, I will drop to your level, and it is essentially, to me, your admittance that I am right.

But this was never a part of the description of Stigma physics. Time doesn't stop in a Stigma field (hence the need for life support on the ships) and inertia isn't cancelled.

I don't intend to use any wonky "phasing" stuff either. It just shunts matter aside instead of absorbing it into the field. There's really no reason for it to be the other way. As Symphony has shown, even if for some reason the incredible kinetic energy blasting apart the front of the ship wasn't a factor, the energy you'd get from fusing all of the hydrogen would be so minor that it wouldn't be worth building a collection mechanism and that type of fusion reactor, and carrying all that equipment along.

I quote you chad, from the front page:

Intervening matter also complicates things. Even in the most efficient vacuum chambers on Earth, Stigma travel is heavily impeded by the occasional stray particles of matter. Matter encountered by a moving Stigma field is "swept up" by the field to join its movement to the destination, but the energy cost of this is severe. Even in interstellar space, wandering atoms of hydrogen will add up, and so preliminary designs for Stigma travelling ships are long and thin, to minimize the cross section that will sweep out a volume on the way from Sol to another star.

this works as is. their is no collision with the ship at FTL speeds, since the particals are swept up in the field before they impact any matter. no collision, no conversion of energy. the the ship arrives, the field drops, and the particals resume there original momentum.
now if as symphony argues happens to be true, then how did the ship go to FTL in the first place?

what is in place works. the field sweeps up matter that impacts it, accelerating it instantly to FTL speeds in the same direction as the ship. their is a slight difference in momentum between it and the ship, that difference being the difference between their vectors compared at the moment they entered the field.


you also explained to me, in a PM when I was questioning you on the viability of other forms of sigma drive, and presented my theory on interdimensional sigma travel. that to the people inside the sigma field, no time passed for them. I think. hmm, I'll go find those PM's to be sure. I have them stored someplace.

 

[Symphony D.]

... please, do not resort to insult, I will drop to your level, and it is essentially, to me, your admittance that I am right.

OOC: Since you live in a fantasy world where you dismiss whatever I have to say as un-logic regardless of its veracity or content, and live in a fantasy world where somehow your own views on how the physical universe operates supersedes the actual operation of the physical universe, I really don't give a damn if you also live in a fantasy world where you consider it a victory that affirms your points when I write you off as a lost cause who's got his fingers in his ears and is going "LA-LA-LA-LA." Drop to my level? You got there a long time before I did.

Here's a nice example of real un-logic:

accelerating it instantly

Right. Infinite acceleration. Planet TerrisH must be a pretty awesome place, what with thrown objects eternally hovering in the air. But what do I know? I'm just a lowly Physics Major. I clearly have no grasp of these concepts whatsoever. Revel in your amazing victory, Emperor of the Universe.