Pred 02

Pred 02

Preparing for takeoff: In my games, I had modified the Celt files to use Boudicca as a leaderhead instead of Brennus. This caused a problem in one of my other succession games, so I had to put everything back in order. I ran a quick test game and Brennus appears to be back.

Checking mapstats, we have an interesting variety of foes: Germany, Scandinavia, Celts, America, Spain, Mongols, and Byzantines.

1) 4000BC: Scout moves sw, sees mountain, turns w. We have a cow! Settle in place, found Lisbon, start a warrior. I'm tempted to start a curragh first, but we already have a scout running, so we'll use that for the homeland. Defense first. Worker goes w to road and mine BG, then irrigate the cow when Lisbon expands.

2) 3950: Start writing, going for the Republic slingshot. At max, we can get writing in 40. Scout sw to mountain, desert to south, sees furs. At least we have a lux nearby.

3) 3900: Scout climbs another mountain to nnw, sees another cow.

4) 3850: Scout follows river 2nw, sees goody 2w.

5) 3800: Worker done roading, starts mining. Scout pops goodie, we get a village! Oporto starts a worker. I didn't think we could pop villages on emperor. Buncha tundra to the w.

6) 3750: Lisbon warrior-->scout. Scout 2w, surrounded by mountains and coast.

7) 3700: Scout sse, sees another goody.

8) 3650: Scout pops goody to s, get maps. We see elephants, and an American scout that was going to pop the goody if we didn't, hehe. We can either trade Abe alpha for mason straight up, or for CB + 10. I'll take CB + 10.

9) 3600: A Celt warrior wanders into view 2s of Lisbon. They don't have alpha, but have mason and warcode. I take warcode + 10 for alpha, planning to trade it to America for mason. Works perfectly. Scout continues s.

10) 3550: Scout climbs hill, sees goody 2e.

11) 3500: Lisbon scout-->archer. Lisbon expands, so we can use the cow now. Lisbon is producing 4 shields and 3 extra food a turn.
Scout pops goody, get more maps, showing more elephants. SoZ is looking good right now.

12) 3450: Scout 2se, scout2 2s.

13) 3400: First scout crosses desert.

14) 3350: Scout2 heads ssw, finds flood plain with 4 wheats! scout1 continues 2se, finds silk.

15) 3300: Oporto worker-->warrior. Celts and Americans both are up BW. We find Celt border, they are closer to the floodplain than I would like.

16) 3250: Lisbon archer-->grain. send archer to guard Oporto. Worker done irrigating cow, roads.

17) 3200: American warrior climbs mountain near unprotected Oporto.

18) 3150: Lisbon riots, play with slider.

19) 3100: Send worker to mine the sugar. After doing so we'll have 4 food surplus and 6 shields. We can get a 5-turn factory going.

20) 3050: Left it here.
 
Oporto is in an ugly, ugly place. I'd set it to a Settler, stop it growing at size 2, and abandon when the choice comes. Best Lisbon can be is a 6-turn factory, not 5. Plenty of shields though so a decent escort+settler farm. Peel off one settler from Lisbon, then a 'rax.
 
Nice land we got this time! Agree on OPorto. Let's move it down to that ivory, make sure we grab it. We'll need a dotmap that extends that far so we place it correctly. I can do that tonight if no one else jumps in. cxxxc? :)
 
OKay, I have it, plan to play tonight.

I am not so certain about the abandon Oporto thing, I am not entirely against it, but I think it might be of use, after I take the turn I will have a stronger opinion, but it depends on the dot map but i think with some well placed cities which expands its borders it can be quite useful, the question is if the location of Oporto interferes too much with cities we will want to place along that river. Like I said, I will have a stronger opinion after taking the turn, right now undecided.

Dbear - I always build 2 or 3 scouts (depending on map size) when I am expansionist. At the early stages of the game I leave cities undefended, dont escort settlers, dont use MPs. I haven't always played like that, but I have found after making these strategy changes putting more emphasis on early exploration / contacts my game improved significantly. On the rare occasion that I have been attacked early, & it has been very rare, I just use ctrl - shift - Q :) I am not saying you made a bad decision in building a warrior first, just a conservative one. I personally love the expansionist trait & never play conservatively with one.

I think the Celts are going to have to go, I didnt really notice how close they were, just from Dbear's comment about them being a little too close to the floodplains makes them a potential expansion threat. Once they get to ironworking, if they get iron & thus Gallics it could be hard to remove them.

One final comment, we may have got a weak civ with a weak UU, but at least our lands dont look anything like last time. Now I am off to play with my 2 boys.
 
Definitely move Oporto. Not only is it a terrible spot (not on the river, too little food), but those elephants are smack in the middle of our landmass. The ai's are likely to beeline to that spot. Moving Oporto allows us to grab that spot early enough, while we can still send our first settlers to build our core.

I think we should decide this right now, pred, not after your turns. You'll have to switch that warrior build to a settler.

Edit: I do agree on one thing, these are great lands.

Edit2: I re-read your post and it occurred to me you're actually talking about abandoning Oporto, which we're not suggesting. Pred, do you know how to move cities? When a settler is done building, but the city is at size 2 with negative fpt, it asks you if you want to abandon the city. Say yes, the city abandons, and you get the settler; thus you can move the city.
 
Oporto is not in such a horrible spot, it is on a river. I threw down a bunch of dots without putting a whole lot of thought into it. I think I did alright. I apologize for not coding the dots for easy reference, I kinda rushed this.
 
Mach - I understood about the abandon thing, i believe it has been referred to as a "soft disband" I personally think Oporto can be a profitable city in the future, there will be several river tiles in its radius with some well placed cities, although I would prolly put another city two tiles from Oporto to be right on the river. Oporto can be used as a unit factory in the meantime pumping out warriors / scouts & skim off a worker now & again. It does have 2 - 2 food tiles & can grow to size 3 in 20 turns, so we can get a settler from there conventionally. The production of the settler will prolly take longer than the growth. My question is, "Why soft disband a city to get a settler when we can build a settler just as quickly and keep that city?" There just does not seem to be a good answer to that question, IMHO. As far as keeping the Celts or anyone else away form the ivory and some of "our" good lands, scouts / warriors can be used to block expansion in our direction. I like to send about 4 scouts (i use scouts because of the 2 movement) to camp out near my closest neighbor, then when a settler comes out (or any unit if I want to keep them from exploring in my direction) I line up my scouts in front of them so they cant get by. In the REX phase they wopnt declare war they just keep moving back & forth trying to get by, or eventually give up and go settle in the other direction.

going to play the turnset now
 
Okay, after actually opening the save I immediately decided not to soft disband Oporto, I had not even realized it was directly on a river, could not see the river in the screenshot thought Mathias had just meant it was near a river, with good tiles on the river. all it needs is a couple cities about 4 tiles away to expand its borders, in the meantime, it can do fine working a mined grass & irrigated plains on river. it could build warriors / workers, but i did start a settler there to further prove my previous point. once it can work the other tiles and we revolt, irrigate the grass, mine the hills and it might be very productive (not to mention the commerce from the river)

Not much really happened my turns so I will just summarize:

changed production in oporto to settler, after worker there finished roading plains, moved to grass to mine then road. when it grew to 2 citizens i worked the hills for 2 turns then switched to the grass, though mine was not finished yet. growth to 3 citizens is in 4 turns, settler due in 5 turns, but might build in 4 when it grows depending on if the extra shield is corrupted (btw, if settler is not put out when the city grows it will need a specialist to keep from rioting, archer wont get there in time & the slider would prolly have to be too high to keep it content). Had I worked two hills to zero out food at 2 citizens the settler would have only finished 1 turn sooner (note: :goodjob: to Dbear for putting out a worker there ASAP) In summary, I sacrificed 1 turn of settler production in order to keep the city. If settlers are still desired from oporto, growth takes 20 turns and production will take 20 turns (10 turns at 1 shield, 10 turns at 2 shields) but prolly better used for warriors / workers.

enough about Oporto, I just hope everyone agrees now it was the right decision to keep it.

America & Celts both expanding towards our good lands, wont have enought itme to really get units there to stop them, they are both too close to us, especially the Celts. Prolly need to warmonger a little to rid ourselves of those pests.

At Lisbon, when worker finished mining the sugar I elected not to road it since it already had 2 commerce and it was across the river, no immediate benefit & i thought those turns would best be used improving the BG, perhaps not a good decision, i don't know.

Sent scout north around America, perhaps a bit far north, ran into a bunch mountains, but the other scout can come behind to clean up some fog. Sent archer to clear some fog in tundra to the north.

2710 - Lisbon finishes granary, start settler (4 turns)

2590 - we discover writing, start on CoL

2510 - Lisbon builds settler. We contact Spain.

Stopped here after 12 turns. Did not move settler, leave that for eldar. Spain has BW (as do Celts & America, plus Celts have The Wheel) we can trade Spain Masonry + 20 Gold for BW, I did not make the deal, leave that decision to eldar also.

That's about it. I would not trade writing, America especially could pop philosophy if they find a hut, especially since it has such a low cost.

Note, Archer is standing next to a barb camp, ready to eliminate it, maybe get promoted, and claim 25 gold.
 

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Looks good, pred. How on earth are we going to dotmap this? Your dotmap looks good, Mathias, except that there are wasted tiles. I'll have time to play with it later. Meanwhile, I suggest sending that settler to a core spot sw, so it can share that cow. Lisbon's gonna waste food as it is now. Meanwhile, the settler from Oporto can grab the ivory.

You guys were right about keeping Oporto, btw; obviously I didn't see the river there. My bad...
 
Mach said:
Looks good, pred. How on earth are we going to dotmap this? Your dotmap looks good, Mathias, except that there are wasted tiles. I'll have time to play with it later. Meanwhile, I suggest sending that settler to a core spot sw, so it can share that cow. Lisbon's gonna waste food as it is now. Meanwhile, the settler from Oporto can grab the ivory.

You guys were right about keeping Oporto, btw; obviously I didn't see the river there. My bad...


Dotmapping does seem a little puzzling, as usual what i feel is an ideal spot for a core city happens to be on a mountain tile, so that's out, then there's that patch of desert which poses problems, our core i dont think will be too strong, but we could have a much stronger second tier core, which leads me to think about a future palace jump. But that also means we might not want to invest in a barracks right now in Lisbon.
 
Here's the best I could do, guys. There's plenty of room for villages that I didn't fill in.

Cities #2 and #5 are our main core cities, I think #5 can get to 10spt, and #2 can get to 8spt. Both are distance 4 from the capital.

Villages #1 and #3 are just villages, @ distance 5.

Cities #4 and #6 grab the wheat.

City #8 grabs the ivory.

City #7 is filler, really. But decent filler, I think.

If we're going to move the capital, city #2 is the place. I think we should settle that spot next, since it can share the cow. The Oporto settler can go to city #8.

Henry_of_the_Portuguese,_2510_BC.jpg
 
Mach, one thing stands out to me, i cant read the numbers too well, but i think it is city number 2, which you mentioned as a good place to move the capitol. that city site wont be on the river, i think moving it one tile in puts too much desert in its raidus, i am not sure, but it also upsets your placement of the other cities. i was thinking of moving it really in land, like city number 8 (by the ivory), of course that line of thought includes removing America and the Celts from our territory. we would want to settle most of those city sites prolly before jumping the palace if that were the case.
 
I agree with predesad on moving our capital further inland to the ivory location. I don't like the placement of city #6. It seems to interfere with placement of cities around Entremont, which I would plan on capturing. Refer to the dots I placed along the river there. I would also place #7 one tile SE, to get that cattle without expansion. I think the other cities are fine, although I might move #3 one tile N if we moved #6 to the coast as in my dotmap.
 
Sorry about the smallness of the city markers on the map, guys, this is what CivAssist II gave me and I couldn't figure out how to make them bigger. Still learning this thing...

The primary reason for city 2's placement was to share the cow from Lisbon. I don't like wasting food. I know it's not on the river but we have to have it off the river for this reason. If we're ok with wasting food then we can move it.

The thing with city 2 and the palace...I like it because of corruption. Our first ring will consist of 4 cities at distance 4, 1 at distance 5, and 1 at distance 6, not bad. Should be a nice strong core. The cities around ivory spot I have spaced a bit farther out. Not that you're wrong pred, as capitals go city 2 is pretty weak, I just noticed this about city 2 and thought it was nice. Also, we can build the palace relatively quickly in city 2; the farther out we go, the longer it'll take.

I hadn't considered the city placement around Entremont. You're right Mathias, city 6 makes it tough to place cities west of there. But that's desert land, which we may want to just ics (or close to it) anyway. Entremont is in some pretty horrible terrain. Those two wheat cities I placed so we wouldn't need an expansion to grab all those wheats. We can still place a village on the coast. (This is probably moot, though -- the Celts are likely to grab at least one wheat spot before we can get there. My mapping the wheats was a bit of fancy. All I really set out to do was map the core and the ivory...)
 
we should not try to build the palace, we should use free palace jump

eldar - you around, in case you didnt notice you're up

mach - if eldar doesnt respond soon you can take it and swap places with him, he might be busy this weekend
 
Free palace jump, bah. Exploit! :cringe: I don't like exploits, they give me the jibblies, plus I always figure we can win without, but if that's how team wants to go then I guess I'll live... :p

Ok, I can play tonight I think unless eldar grabs it. It's now, what 9pm in London? I'll start in about 5hrs.
 
Mach - MM can be an exploit, ICS is an exploit, prebuilding is an exploit, the use of armies is an exploit . . .

But the free palace jump is allowed in GOTM & HOF, & typically i try to play along the same rules / guidelines as GOTM & HOF because I figure the exploits they allow are not too powerful nor are they considered cheats.
 
Preflight
Things seem MM'd to perfection.
Send the settler off to city 2.
Decide to skip the BW trade, since we don't really need it right now.
(I) Celts found Lugdunum by the wheats, so much for that.

T1 (2470BC)
Pop the barb camp flawlessly
(I) zzz

T2 (2430BC)
Found Guimaraes, start warrior
(I) Lisbon archer --> settler
American settler emerges heading toward ivory...

T3 (2390BC)
Kill a barb with the archer and promote.
Trying to block that settler...
(I) zzz

T4 (2350BC)
(I) zzz

T5 (2310BC)
That settler hasn't founded yet, but he's about to. We have the settler in Oporto, but I'm giving up on the ivory and sending him to city 7. Sorry guys, but there's no way I can block him for 5 turns with one scout.
(I) Spanish are building colossus.

T6 (2270BC)
(I) Lisbon settler --> archer

T7 (2230BC)
Found Lagos
Meet the Vikings, get BW for Masonry
(I)

T8 (2190BC)
(I) zzz

T9 (2150BC)
Found Emerita
(I) Lisbon archer --> settler

T10 (2110BC)
zzz

Ok, that's it. Settled a bunch of new cities, that's about it. We lost the ivory and a flood plains wheat spot, but the core dotmap is still holding. We need workers badly.

Don't really know what to do next. Just one step at a time, I guess. Found a new barb camp in the north. Lots of trades available, but all for writing, which I held on to so we can keep out hopes for philo alive.

save

Pred02_2110.JPG
 
Sorry, was away for the w/e. Philadelphia just got a great big "hit me" sign painted on it. Lagos should get a 'rax and start building Archers ASAP, and get a town on those flood plains.
 
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