Prehistoric Era Revamp

[Thunderbrd]

I'm not seeing that on Hunters. Only Chasers, Brutes, Watchers (which won't make a difference in this case), and Neanderthal Brutesw and Neanderthal Chasers.

This is a UnitCombat, not a promotion.

        <UnitInfo>
            <Class>UNITCLASS_NEANDERTHAL_CHASER</Class>
            <Type>UNIT_NEANDERTHAL_CHASER</Type>
            <EnabledCivilizationTypes>
                <EnabledCivilizationType>
                    <CivilizationType>CIVILIZATION_NPC_NEANDERTHAL</CivilizationType>
                </EnabledCivilizationType>
            </EnabledCivilizationTypes>
            <Combat>UNITCOMBAT_HUNTER</Combat>
            <SubCombatTypes>
                <SubCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_EXPLORER</SubCombatType>
                <SubCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_SPECIES_NEANDERTHAL</SubCombatType>
                <SubCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_WEAPON_METHOD_HAND_TO_HAND_ONLY</SubCombatType>
                <SubCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_WEAPON_STYLE_H2H_PRIMARY_PLUS_SECONDARY</SubCombatType>
                <SubCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_WEAPON_H2H_FIST</SubCombatType>
                <SubCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_SPEED_FAST</SubCombatType>
                <SubCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MOTILITY_FOOT</SubCombatType>
                <SubCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_QUALITY_EXCEPTIONAL</SubCombatType>
                <SubCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_GROUP_PARTY</SubCombatType>
                <SubCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_SIZE_MEDIUM</SubCombatType>
                <SubCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_HEALS_AS_PEOPLE</SubCombatType>
            </SubCombatTypes>

UNITCOMBAT_WEAPON_H2H_FIST
Hand 2 Hand Fist

            <Class>UNITCLASS_HUNTER</Class>
            <Type>UNIT_HUNTER</Type>
            <Combat>UNITCOMBAT_HUNTER</Combat>
            <SubCombatTypes>
                <SubCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_EXPLORER</SubCombatType>
                <SubCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_SPECIES_HUMAN</SubCombatType>
                <SubCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_WEAPON_METHOD_DISTANCE_SECONDARY</SubCombatType>
                <SubCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_WEAPON_STYLE_H2H_SINGLE_HAND_ONLY</SubCombatType>
                <SubCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_WEAPON_STYLE_SIDEARM_SINGLE_HAND_ONLY</SubCombatType>
                <SubCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_WEAPON_STYLE_DIST_SINGLE_HAND_ONLY</SubCombatType>
                <SubCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_WEAPON_H2H_KNIFE</SubCombatType>
                <SubCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_WEAPON_SIDEARM_KNIFE</SubCombatType>
                <SubCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_WEAPON_DIST_JAVELIN</SubCombatType>
                <SubCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_ARMOR_LIGHT</SubCombatType>
                <SubCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_SPEED_FAST</SubCombatType>
                <SubCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MOTILITY_FOOT</SubCombatType>
                <SubCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_QUALITY_EXCEPTIONAL</SubCombatType>
                <SubCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_GROUP_PARTY</SubCombatType>
                <SubCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_SIZE_MEDIUM</SubCombatType>
                <SubCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_HEALS_AS_PEOPLE</SubCombatType>
            </SubCombatTypes>

 

[KaTiON_PT]

Ah ok! I was talking about the Ensnare promotion:

        <PromotionInfo>
            <Type>PROMOTION_ENTRAPMENT1</Type>
            <Description>TXT_KEY_PROMOTION_ENTRAPMENT1</Description>
            <Sound>AS2D_IF_LEVELUP</Sound>
            <TechPrereq>TECH_HUNTING_TACTICS</TechPrereq>
            <PromotionLine>PROMOTIONLINE_ENTRAPMENT</PromotionLine>
            <iLinePriority>1</iLinePriority>
            <UnitCombats>
                <UnitCombat>
                    <UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_HUNTER</UnitCombatType>
                    <bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
                </UnitCombat>
                <UnitCombat>
                    <UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_CRIMINAL</UnitCombatType>
                    <bUnitCombat>1</bUnitCombat>
                </UnitCombat>
            </UnitCombats>
            <iCaptureProbabilityModifierChange>10</iCaptureProbabilityModifierChange>
            <Button>art/Buttons/Promotions/Ensnare1Promotion.dds</Button>
        </PromotionInfo>

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Hunters have access to that promotion though.

As far as I know CapturProbability is only about humans and the like including domesticated animal units. SubdueChance is about wild animals.

Hunters still have access to all sorts of promotions they should not have access to.

Hmm... maybe we could add it to their weapon UnitCombat... like an extra 20%.
UNITCOMBAT_WEAPON_H2H_FIST

That would naturally give Brutes a 20% Subdual as well... Which is interesting. Maybe only 10% then?

It's at least logical that if you beat up an animal you're more likely to end the fight taming it rather than killing it. I know that most subdued animals are the young but this is an interesting story alternative to that.


FYI: Capture percent is for the captive system (human captives)

I think there is a UNITCOMBAT_HUNTER which all hunter units have and is were we set the basic values up. It would be better to give them a boost over any other unit in hunting since that is what they are about.

 

[Thunderbrd]

As far as I know CapturProbability is only about humans and the like including domesticated animal units. SubdueChance is about wild animals.

Hunters still have access to all sorts of promotions they should not have access to.

I think there is a UNITCOMBAT_HUNTER which all hunter units have and is were we set the basic values up. It would be better to give them a boost over any other unit in hunting since that is what they are about.

Which they have, somehow... I'm searching for how that's established because it's NOT in the xml on CIV4UnitCombatInfos.xml since it's not done through a tag.

The idea is to boost specifically Chasers among other hunting types because they use non-lethal weaponry, so the rationale extends to any unit that's using such pugilistic non-lethal attack forms.

Brutes suck against animals so it makes it actually an interesting side ability of a Brute which might give Brutes an interesting awkward side-strategic purpose.

And an LE unit is useless against an animal.

But the idea is mostly based on the Chaser being weak but if it CAN take down an animal, it gives you an opportunity to get an early boost by having a better chance of subdual despite a lesser chance of survival, something to give it more of a sense of purpose when you have them for a longer period on the tech tree where you might be otherwise compelled to just give up on them due to their low survival likelihood. If you try to hold out for Trackers, you'll be missing the opportunity to have a better chance of subdual for a bit over the tracker's normal likelihood (if you can keep them alive.)

EDIT:
Damn... looks like you can only give a modifier to a promotion.

OK, so that means maybe we need a specific new promo to be given to chasers for free?

It's added through CIV4OutcomeInfos.xml under OUTCOME_SUBDUE:

<OutcomeInfo>
            <Type>OUTCOME_SUBDUE</Type>
            <Description>TXT_KEY_OUTCOME_SUBDUE</Description>
            <Message>TXT_KEY_OUTCOME_SUBDUE_MESSAGE</Message>
            <bNeutralTerritory>1</bNeutralTerritory>
            <bHostileTerritory>1</bHostileTerritory>
            <bBarbarianTerritory>1</bBarbarianTerritory>
            <bCapture>1</bCapture>
            <ExtraChancePromotions>
                <ExtraChancePromotion>
                    <PromotionType>PROMOTION_HUNTER1</PromotionType>
                    <iExtraChance>10</iExtraChance>
                </ExtraChancePromotion>
                <ExtraChancePromotion>
                    <PromotionType>PROMOTION_HUNTER2</PromotionType>
                    <iExtraChance>15</iExtraChance>
                </ExtraChancePromotion>
                <ExtraChancePromotion>
                    <PromotionType>PROMOTION_HUNTER3</PromotionType>
                    <iExtraChance>15</iExtraChance>
                </ExtraChancePromotion>

We could ADD a tag to this but that would be a lot more work...

 

[Yudishtira]

Ah ok! I was talking about the Ensnare promotion:
<iCaptureProbabilityModifierChange>10</iCaptureProbabilityModifierChange>

Ensnare promotions do give 10% subdue chance. I don't know whether it's from that tag (I'd guess not, but then where could it be from?).

 

[Thunderbrd]

By the Horns

I suppose it's not going to go to Brutes (not automatically at least). +15% subdual. Free to Chasers and otherwise available to H2H Fist units.

I got this in and setup on the Chasers already so it is ready to go from here. It's an interesting optional promo available to brutes if you still have brutes by persistence hunting, which you won't - unless you really try to...

 

[JosEPh_II]

@KaTiON_PT
What is the idea behind Naturopathy coming in after Poison Crafting and also not until the 9th column? When Naturopathy should be before Gathering and before Herbalism. Poison Crafting would only occur After you begin developing the knowledge of edible vs non edible fruits and plants/vegetables (Naturopathy), and edible vs nonedible herbs (Herbalism). To me that seems the more logical progression here.

I think we should just do this and make it core @KaTiON_PT .

Maybe this should be a Modmod 1st? So that input from players can help evaluate? I have some deep reservations. The above is only one of several areas that leave many ????s as to why here or why there.

 

[KaTiON_PT]

@KaTiON_PT
What is the idea behind Naturopathy coming in after Poison Crafting and also not until the 9th column? When Naturopathy should be before Gathering and before Herbalism. Poison Crafting would only occur After you begin developing the knowledge of edible vs non edible fruits and plants/vegetables (Naturopathy), and edible vs nonedible herbs (Herbalism). To me that seems the more logical progression here.

My idea was the opposite in fact, in that Poison Crafting should come before Naturopathy since it's easier to figure out what plants kill and make you sick than finding those that heal you. To be honest one could say that all medicines are a poison, to bacteria and such.

EDIT: Added new changes to the thread header.

 

[Thunderbrd]

@KaTiON_PT
What is the idea behind Naturopathy coming in after Poison Crafting and also not until the 9th column? When Naturopathy should be before Gathering and before Herbalism. Poison Crafting would only occur After you begin developing the knowledge of edible vs non edible fruits and plants/vegetables (Naturopathy), and edible vs nonedible herbs (Herbalism). To me that seems the more logical progression here.



Maybe this should be a Modmod 1st? So that input from players can help evaluate? I have some deep reservations. The above is only one of several areas that leave many ????s as to why here or why there.

I've gone through this with him on many points. We can adjust some things but I mean, SVN is modmod enough. This is not meant to be optional but a set of adjustments that corrects a number of details. If there are more adjustments to come from playtesting, I want them to come fast and from the whole community at once rather than being optional from here on out.

To answer your question about Naturopathy being after Poison Crafting - Medicine theory contends that all medicine is just a poison used in the right proportion. Herbalism, the natural extension of gathering, would be where you'd be learning what you can safely eat and what you can't and yes, some basic recognition of what seems to harm and what seems to help with various things. Poison Crafting would be a more aggressive application of that, which many tribes develop not just for defense and war but to help in hunting as well. From there, experimentation with that more powerful medicinal stuff leads to insights that bring about a new understanding of more powerful herbal remedies and medicines. Poisons are actually much more basic and are more crude instruments than medicinal applications.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Medicine theory contends that all medicine is just a poison used in the right proportion.

That is a modern day interpretation. But of course modern Pharmaceuticals believe this. While Holistic practitioners/advocates do not. But you all have your minds made up so I'll leave at this. Dropping the subject because....well it's futile arguing.
@KaTiON_PT ,
Is the file in the OP the latest version? If it is I want to run it on my 2nd older computer to see it's effects.

 

[Thunderbrd]

While Holistic practitioners/advocates do not

IIRC, Holistic is about balancing the energies in the body. I realize there's a point in that where it seems to be a different approach and both ways of seeing medicine have valuable insights, but it still doesn't change that poison is a much simpler form of application of natural substances than mixed and blended herbology.

It's easier to harm than to heal as they say in Shaolin Kung-Fu.

(Plus there were game reasons for the intent of spacing the unit access into just the right columns so of course rationale follows design rather than the other way around. It was useful to approach it this way.)

 

[KaTiON_PT]

@JosEPh_II indeed it is! Give it a go.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Just to repeat myself for the nth time, probably to be ignored yet again. You can't have sewing without piercing. It is half of what sewing is. Piercing covers tools from needles and awls to spears (and possibly siege rams). It does not make any difference to the placement in the tree since Piercing is above Sewing in the same column.

Bone Working also needs to require it or the Sharpening tech. Probably the latter. Which reminds me we should probably also add bone to our list of musical instruments, examples bone flutes and percussion. Though there is ancient written evidence for their ancients 'banging the rocks together' for percussion accompaniment for rituals.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Just to repeat myself for the nth time, probably to be ignored yet again. You can't have sewing without piercing. It is half of what sewing is. Piercing covers tools from needles and awls to spears (and possibly siege rams). It does not make any difference to the placement in the tree since Piercing is above Sewing in the same column.

Looks like an easy enough adjustment to move sewing and trapping one to the right and make Piercing an AND prereq for Sewing. I would agree with you on the rationale.

Looks like Bone Working could easily take on an additional AND prereq there too.

As for the instruments, many of those we have can be envisioned as being made of bone - the material they are made from is unspecified, only the TYPE, such as wind, percussion etc...

 

[KaTiON_PT]

@Dancing Hoskuld what do you think:

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

That works for me. Thanks.

 

[KaTiON_PT]

I've also implemented what you felt about Megafauna. You no longer need to research all three.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Just made Tribalism with the previous file set. Mixed review for 1st time play thru that is still ongoing. Things are still up in the air so to speak.

Don't like that Tribal warfare was moved to Warfare Tech. The way the Preh era unfolds Tribalism should be Before Warfare and then giving the Civic Tribal Warfare with the Tech Warfare would make sense. Several other places that just feel and play like the Cart is before the Horse.

Many, maybe too many, building changes too, ...maybe. Seems like the changes to buildings was made to tailor to the new tech order. And the fit of the suit has a bit of a strange feeling.

I still do not like how the progression from Animal Husbandry is laid out. Still seems backwards. Animal riding should be in same column as ALL the Domestication Techs ( Yes Megafauna Domestication included) and directly from Animal Husbandry. Out of Equine Domestication And Animal Riding should then give way to Tengrii.

Well, will update to newest file set and start another test game. Maybe it will play/feel better 2nd time thru...maybe.

 

[KaTiON_PT]

The way the Preh era unfolds Tribalism should be Before Warfare and then giving the Civic Tribal Warfare with the Tech Warfare would make sense.

I can change that, no problem.

Many, maybe too many, building changes too, ...maybe. Seems like the changes to buildings was made to tailor to the new tech order. And the fit of the suit has a bit of a strange feeling.

Only the names where changed, they still give the same yields though. But you are right that some buildings come before others and viceversa compared to how it is.

I still do not like how the progression from Animal Husbandry is laid out. Still seems backwards. Animal riding should be in same column as ALL the Domestication Techs ( Yes Megafauna Domestication included) and directly from Animal Husbandry. Out of Equine Domestication And Animal Riding should then give way to Tengrii.

I can understand Megafauna coming from Animal Husbandry, but one should only be able to ride a certain animal after it's been domesticated, right?

 

[JosEPh_II]

I can understand Megafauna coming from Animal Husbandry, but one should only be able to ride a certain animal after it's been domesticated, right?

Here is the problem. Animal Husbandry inherently means that you have learned to control an animal type. The breaking out of these Domestication categories as new Techs actually denies that Animal husbandry has already done this. And from Animal Husbandry the management of (end usage), caring for, and helping to propagate the animal all are embodied in this one Tech. And as such Animal riding is the next step of animal husbandry. The Domestication techs are really there to hold all the benefits of Animal Husbandry because we could not fit all these aspects of it game wise onto 1 tech. Even Canine Domestication is a function of learning how to do Animal Husbandry.