Prehistoric Era Revamp

[Thunderbrd]

Here is the problem. Animal Husbandry inherently means that you have learned to control an animal type. The breaking out of these Domestication categories as new Techs actually denies that Animal husbandry has already done this. And from Animal Husbandry the management of (end usage), caring for, and helping to propagate the animal all are embodied in this one Tech. And as such Animal riding is the next step of animal husbandry. The Domestication techs are really there to hold all the benefits of Animal Husbandry because we could not fit all these aspects of it game wise onto 1 tech. Even Canine Domestication is a function of learning how to do Animal Husbandry.

I believe animal husbandry was the act of managing herds and populations, managing the reproduction and raising of animals, largely for food. I see it as a more advanced generalized form that encompasses a greater mastery of those individual subjects as applied more generically to all sorts of animals, whereas the individual domestication techs are those first discoveries that hey, these critters can be useful and we can keep them as pets and such. That's not quite the same as knowing exactly what their diets should be, how many get born when you breed them, which ones to pair to get better breeding results, their biological cycles, etc... things you observe with time once they've been domesticated, and then making similar comparisons for greater in-depth knowledge with all other sorts of similar animals - a development that brings about larger scale operations for providing these animals to the needs of entire communities.

Of course, the opposite could be true as well, where because you have begun to recognize similarities between various animal types and how to generically breed some you've started with, like dogs for example, you start then exploring further specialized types and what their individual needs are.

 

[KaTiON_PT]

@JosEPh_II Interesting insight. I could make Animal Husbandry a central tech from which all other ... domestication + animal riding come from.

 

[tmv]

Should Mercenary Stables be transferred to Equine Domestication? The unit rides horses IIRC. This is still true in the main mod, though.

And with this change Megafauna Domestication should probably be increased in price. Making Megafauna effectively more expensive is probably the one reason for requiring all those techs as prerequisites, but it is a bit artificial. Better to have the tech itself be more expensive.

 

[raxo2222]

Should Mercenary Stables be transferred to Equine Domestication? The unit rides horses IIRC. This is still true in the main mod, though.

And with this change Megafauna Domestication should probably be increased in price. Making Megafauna effectively more expensive is probably the one reason for requiring all those techs as prerequisites, but it is a bit artificial. Better to have the tech itself be more expensive.

All techs have cost associated with Xgrid where they reside.

 

[KaTiON_PT]

All techs have cost associated with Xgrid where they reside.

We could add a special modifier (like how it's done for neanderthal units) for megafauna.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I still think that Megafauna needs to be off of Animal Riding... The rest I can understand.

 

[KaTiON_PT]

I still think that Megafauna needs to be off of Animal Riding... The rest I can understand.

I'd also prefer that, but I'd like to take @JosEPh_II into consideration too... Maybe I should start a vote?

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'd also prefer that, but I'd like to take @JosEPh_II into consideration too... Maybe I should start a vote?

You could. I'm mostly arguing on behalf of DH on this one so a vote may help to clear that up.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Okay after some more thought and looking at details the MegaFauna off Animal Riding is okay as T-brd wants because it is a What If Tech anyway.

But I think the Domestication Techs (DT's) need to be in 2 groups, The Canine, Cat, and Poultry represent 1 group. The Other group would have Equine, Elelphant, and Camels. But Animal Riding would come before this group. MegaFauna would come after Elephant.

So you have AH that has 2 branches:
Branch 1 is the C, C, P group. (now if you don't want to use 3 consecutive Column spaces here it could be Canine and then Cat on 1 leg and Poultry on another
Branch 2 leads 1st to AR Tech that then splits out the E E C group With the MFD coming after and out of the Elephant Domestication Tech. And of course Tengrii off Equine.

Also Megalith Construction should come after Mysticism.

This way Mega Fauna has 1 more column of cost vs the other 3 riding animal groups (would maybe satisfy tmv's concern).

Prereq Techs for these 2 branches of Domesticated should be self evident.

What do you think?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Here is the problem. Animal Husbandry inherently means that you have learned to control an animal type. The breaking out of these Domestication categories as new Techs actually denies that Animal husbandry has already done this. And from Animal Husbandry the management of (end usage), caring for, and helping to propagate the animal all are embodied in this one Tech. And as such Animal riding is the next step of animal husbandry. The Domestication techs are really there to hold all the benefits of Animal Husbandry because we could not fit all these aspects of it game wise onto 1 tech. Even Canine Domestication is a function of learning how to do Animal Husbandry.

Animal Husbandry is not the same as Animal Domestication. They are on the same spectrum from hunting to herding. For example with animal husbandry you don't choose which animals breed the animals still do that.

edit also Animal Riding should not come until after Chariots if you want any semblance to reality.

All techs have cost associated with Xgrid where they reside.

A really bad decision in my opinion. Techs should have a varied cost based on the cost defined by the X grid and their difficulty

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Have moved the political discussion posts to the Political Philosophy discussion thread. Good luck with the excellent work of this mod.

 

[KaTiON_PT]

Am I allowed to merge this for V40? I've implemented Joseph and DancingHoskuld recommendations. And so far there haven't been complaints about it.

 

[billw2015]

Put it in a branch on git make a PR and we can all look at it?

 

[Sir Monster The Great]

Animal Husbandry is not the same as Animal Domestication. They are on the same spectrum from hunting to herding. For example with animal husbandry you don't choose which animals breed the animals still do that.

edit also Animal Riding should not come until after Chariots if you want any semblance to reality.

Would it be better to simply split Animal Husbandry into different animal-based domestication techs? Even a rename into Bovid Domestication would be good and put Animal Husbandry in early Ancient era, as a prereq for Agriculture. Pastoralism would also be a good candidate for a tech in Prehistoric. Nocturnalism should be renamed to Ambush Tactics if you want it to be a prereq to Warfare.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Am I allowed to merge this for V40? I've implemented Joseph and DancingHoskuld recommendations. And so far there haven't been complaints about it.

I'm not sure why it's not core already... This is one of the core reasons FOR a v40.

Would it be better to simply split Animal Husbandry into different animal-based domestication techs? Even a rename into Bovid Domestication would be good and put Animal Husbandry in early Ancient era, as a prereq for Agriculture. Pastoralism would also be a good candidate for a tech in Prehistoric. Nocturnalism should be renamed to Ambush Tactics if you want it to be a prereq to Warfare.

1) Isn't Nocturnalism after Warfare?
2) We could break animal husbandry up further but it's already broken up a lot imo.

 

[KaTiON_PT]

I've placed warfare after because of it needing tribalism now.

By the way it's already in a brah with a pull request so all that is left to do is for you to give it the OK in GitHub.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I've placed warfare after because of it needing tribalism now.

By the way it's already in a brah with a pull request so all that is left to do is for you to give it the OK in GitHub.

@billw2015 can you approve this for us? I'm yet to be really setup here.

 

[billw2015]

Anyone can approve PRs (include the author) and you can do it on github, you don't need to be setup locally at all:
https://github.com/caveman2cosmos/Caveman2Cosmos/pull/52/files?w=1

If you like it you can just go to the Conversation Tab, scroll to bottom and hit green Merge button.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I mean to say I don't have time to look at it at the moment.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Once it is in I will have to review all Preh Era Civics again. As they are now moved around and come at different times (different columns) in the Era with this new Tech tree.