Preparing for a possible invasion.

[dl123654]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Marines the only units that can attack from a boat? Which means that in order for an invasion to succeed there has to be either an open tile for the enemy to land on, or the enemy must bring a ton of marines, right?

If that's the case, then all we need to do is block the coast and they'll be forced to use marines to clear a tile/town for landing the rest of the troops.

But any blockers will still be subject to bombarding ships, right?

Don't forget planes and their lethal bombardment.

 

[Niklas]

We obviously can't allow them to land on a mountain. We don't have that many coastal mountains to cover, and we should have enough Mechs to put a stack of 5+ on each mountain in range of any invasion fleet. That might even work for hills too, depending on where the attack comes.

 

[General_W]

Late edit: vet MA vs. vet MA on mountain wins 46% of the time WITH A RADAR TOWER. Without, it wins 33% of the time.

I think this should probably end the debate once-and-for-all about getting Advanced Flight.

We can never hope to have our military outnumber either FREE or Saber.
We'll need every single advantage we can muster to even have a shot at holding out against the eventual invasion.

We must have Advanced Flight.

imo

If that's the case, then all we need to do is block the coast and they'll be forced to use marines to clear a tile/town for landing the rest of the troops.

This is true - but even if we could cover every possible landing site with a mech infantry, we'd still only be able to win 83% of the time against Marines (assuming they attack us on grassland or plains).
I suppose with our EWS we might be able to stack units along the path of most likely invasion? That could certainly help make it more difficult for them to land... hmmm... I kinda like that.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

If we are going to create a military large enough to make us impregnable to landings, we are probably better off attacking.

 

[Paul#42]

Blocking the coast won't help too much because they might have some bombers with lethal attack.

Not sure how our jet fighters' odds are to hit them... But with just some ten jet fighters we'd have only 2-3 ready for interceptions anyway...
And ships will redline our defender so a single bomber coming through will do the job - or a single marine. What's the odds for a vet marine against a redlined Mech Inf?

Except for some mountains or hills I don't fear any landings outside our coastal towns. It might get ugly and we might fail to kill all intruders but they's gain not much land as we could defend all cities nearby.

Our coastal towns is the weakest spot in our defense imo. I'd not waste too many units to block empty grasslands...

Radar towers are great. But how about doing one more different tech, look at what SABER and FREE do and maybe arrange a deal with SABER - the do Advanced Flight and trade it for one of our techs?

If I was FREE, I'd have my arms ready to attack SABER right when they are about to finish of BABE. That would be these turns.
If I was SABER I'd fear excactly that. That's the reason why SABER takes so long to finish off BABE. They need to cover their back.
Of course with this imo obvious thinking the third alternative that FREE attacks us is still also valid...

There's no reason for FREE to attack us in the next couple of turns - except for the reason that there is no reason

So I'd still go for Robotics unless something exciting happens on the diplo screen. I think we need a poll and discussion thread...

 

[AutomatedTeller]

well, I suspect part of the reason BABE is hard to take is because they had Motorized transport earlier than GONG, and because FREE attacked from a lot of different directions.

When did FREE go commie?

 

[donsig]

When did FREE go commie?

FREE is still a republic in the turn 225 save.

 

[Yilar]

well, I suspect part of the reason BABE is hard to take is because they had Motorized transport earlier than GONG, and because FREE attacked from a lot of different directions.

When did FREE go commie?

afaik it was The Council who gave Gong motors (1 turn to late), which was instantly passed on to the council.

 

[Paul#42]

AT certainly meant earlier in the process of being conquered.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I did mean that BABE has had tanks for quite some time - I suspect that if we had sent motorized transport and money earlier, GONG could have held out for a little while longer.

 

[Yilar]

I did mean that BABE has had tanks for quite some time - I suspect that if we had sent motorized transport and money earlier, GONG could have held out for a little while longer.

You suspect correct
We were waiting and waiting for motors to come once you gave us the rather useless flight. We should have been able to completely get rid of FREE if you had sent us motors instead of flight...

 

[donsig]

Now that we're mobilized I took a look at our production possibilities and have some suggestions:

• The Chamber can do 1 turn modern armor if it gets a mined bonus grassland from The Admiralty.
• The Igloo can do 2 turn modern armor if it gets a mined grassland from The Admiralty.
• The Admiralty can still do 2 turn destroyers by losing those two tiles and irrigates a grass tile.
• The Institute can give up two tiles to The Nursery and still do 2 turn modern armor if it irrigates 3 grass tiles and hires 2 cops.
• The Aerie can do 2 turn modern armor if it mines a bonus grass. It should complete a bomber first.
• The Meeting Room can do 3 turn subs but should put out a destroyer first.
• The Bayou can switch one cop to a scientist. When it grows to size 4 it may be able to do 3 turn subs with 4 cops.
• The Red Tape can do 4 turn subs if a bonus grass is mined.
• The Phoenix can do 5 turn subs if two tiles are mined and two cops hired.
• The Marina can do 7 turn subs if it hires a cop.

Here's a summary of the units we can produce under this plan:

City	           build/turns  	made in 12 turns	   notes

The Treasury	   Armor/1	        12 armor		
The Chamber	   Armor/1	        12 armor		
Institute	   Bomber/2	         6 bomber		
Gulag	           Cruise missile/1	11 missiles	1 armor	   modern armor next turn
Silo	           Bomber/2	         5 bombers	1 armor	   modern armor next turn
Admiralty	   Destroyer/2	         6 destroyers		   destroyer in 1 or battleship in 2
Arboretum	   Armor/2	         6 armor		
Aerie	           Armor/2	         5 armor	1 bomber   bomber next turn
Igloo	           Armor/2	         5 armor	1 mech	   mech inf next turn
Meeting Room	   Sub/3	         4 subs		           sub next turn
Bayou	           Destroyer/4	         3 destroyers		   destroyer in 3
Pier	           Destroyer/4           3 destroyers		   destroyer in 3
Red Tape	   Sub/4	         3 subs		
New Yard	   Sub/5	         2 subs		           sub in 4
Phoenix	           Sub/5	         2 subs	           	   sub in 5
Ways	           Sub/8	         1 sub	           	   sub in 7
Nursery	           Sub/7	         2 subs	              	   sub in 4
Chamsuri's Cove	   Sub/10                1 sub	              	   sub in 6
Marina	           Sub/7	         2 subs	              	   sub in 3
Beach	           Sub/15		 1 sub                     sub in 14

Here's the totals:

unit	   total
mech inf      1
armor	      43
bombers	      12
missiles     11
destroyers   12
subs         13
	
total	      92

IIRC we've already concluded that modern armor would be better than mech infantry for defending ourselves, so I focused on armor.
We also know that sinking transports before they can unload enemy troops onto our land is even better. Subs have the advantage of targeting transports but have a limited range. We'd need over a 100 subs to have a decent chance of covering all possible invasion routes. Even if we converted all destroyers to subs in the plan outlined above it would take over 30 turns to build that many subs.
Bombers can also sink transports but we need a large number (30 or 40) in order to have a chance to sink an escorted 10 transport stack. Bombers have a nice 10 tile range and can be rebased in a turn.
We've never seriously considered cruise missiles. They only have a range of 4 but they can move. With our railroad network the effective range of a cruise missile is 4 tiles from any point on our coast. So I included them in my plan. A stack of cruise missiles could possibly be used against an invading fleet the same turn as rebased bombers. Cruise missiles cost about half as much as bombers but are only one use units where bombers can be used over and over - if they aren't shot down. Do we want a mix of cruise missiles and bombers?

 

[General_W]

IIRC we've already concluded that modern armor would be better than mech infantry for defending ourselves, so I focused on armor.

The "fast" unit ability is worth more than the +2 defense points the Mech Infantry add. They're also way more flexible if we need to counter-attack.

Subs have the advantage of targeting transports but have a limited range. We'd need over a 100 subs to have a decent chance of covering all possible invasion routes.

Don't forget our subs get a boost from Magellan. - so they're actually 8.4.5
Did you already calculate for that?

We've never seriously considered cruise missiles.

This is a good point... for our current situation, 60 shield cruise missiles could be quite the bargain.
But won't the enemy transports just sit 6 tiles off our coast the turn before an attack... and hence out of range of our cruise missiles?
They'd still be handy for sinking any ships before they could go back to pick up reinforcements... but it's probably best to focus on units that can eliminate as many ships as possible BEFORE they land.

I'm not sure what that means... just trying to get my thoughts down. Hopefully it sparks something more productive in someone else...

 

[Yilar]

I would tone down the naval production and increase the modern armor production... If saber or free has a spy on us we are not gonna be able to take out their transporter stack that easily. They are gonna sweep the area first for certain.

Cruise missles is a waste shields, build modern armors instead.

 

[Paul#42]

Not sure about the value of those missiles.
Should we also add some more jet fighters to our mix?

We need a lot of extra workers if we are going for Advanced Flight next.
They certainly won't come from The Gulag so The Gulag should mine a couple of his irrigated tiles.
Rather a mine than another specialist.

Other than that: good plan.
Make sure that all MA producing cities have a rax

 

[Hasdrubal Barca]

Setting up a couple airfields in strategic positions seems essential also, enemy bombardment tends to be less efective against our planes stationed there. it will also provide airlift instant capability for some paratroopers to any other airfield, lets say in an island.

A radar tower is a must because it will provide +25% combat bonus to all our troops, naval, ground and air forces

Subs limited movement capability can make hard to attack their navy and survive a counter attack.

Mech Inf can be drafted....

A wall of forests around some coastal cities can be a good defense.

A couple routine long-distance recon flights can also be a good sentry net...

We don´t have any artillery also...

 

[Yilar]

Setting up a couple airfields in strategic positions seems essential also, enemy bombardment tends to be less efective against our planes stationed there. it will also provide airlift instant capability for some paratroopers to any other airfield, lets say in an island.

A radar tower is a must because it will provide +25% combat bonus to all our troops, naval, ground and air forces

Subs limited movement capability can make hard to attack their navy and survive a counter attack.

Mech Inf can be drafted....

A wall of forests around some coastal cities can be a good defense.

A couple routine long-distance recon flights can also be a good sentry net...

We don´t have any artillery also...

1. We got airports, not need to waste workers to having airfields the enemy can capture and use.
2. Lets face it, if a sub attacks it will most likely die the following turn, but not before sinking the transport with its selectiv attack.
3. Only when your people ain't rioting, if free or saber should break war we would riot like crazy and drafting would be impossible.
4. We are doing "barricades", no need to build "useless" forests that decrease our production.
5. Yes, but ain't we already doing that?
6. Artillery generally sucks against real players and would be foolish to use in our sitiuation. I think PrinceMyshkin can back me up on this, Free brought artillery (instead of tanks) with them, only for us to capture and use against them

 

[peter grimes]

Can we build workers under mobilization?

If not, then are we up a creek regarding Radar Towers?

 

[Paul#42]

Can we build workers under mobilization?

We can build workers in mobilization mode, don't worry.

 

[donsig]

Can we build workers under mobilization?

Yes, we can build workers (and settlers) while mobilized.

Don't forget our subs get a boost from Magellan. - so they're actually 8.4.5
Did you already calculate for that?

Yes. But the trouble is we do not know where an invasion fleet (or fleets) would appear. We either have to make guesses about this and station sub packs accordingly or we need lots of sub packs so that a pack can reach any possible invasion route. With subs that can move 5 tiles we can leave ten tiles between packs. I did a quick and dirty count of how many tiles surround our mainland and SCI (in one continuous net) and it's almost 100. So we'd need 9 sub packs to blanket our lands in a sub net. We can't really make subs fast enough to be able to rely on them to prevent landings.

This is a good point... for our current situation, 60 shield cruise missiles could be quite the bargain.
But won't the enemy transports just sit 6 tiles off our coast the turn before an attack... and hence out of range of our cruise missiles?
They'd still be handy for sinking any ships before they could go back to pick up reinforcements... but it's probably best to focus on units that can eliminate as many ships as possible BEFORE they land.

Knowing when we'll be able to strike an invasion fleet is important. We are assuming our EWS will show us an invasion fleet and give us some time to react. But how much time? Let's say FREE attacks us. If they send their armada out from one of their cities we'll see it on our turn within landing distance of our shores, but out of range of cruise missiles as you point out. We have to hit the armada the turn we first see it, since next turn it can land units. We won't even have time to redeploy bombers. I can see now how cruise missiles would not be much help. Those cities slated to make missiles would be better of doing two turn bombers.

I think once we get enough modern armor built we should switch some of those cities over to bombers. Having half a dozen bomber squadrons gives us the best chance of covering all invasion routes to sink loaded transports.

I don't think we should lower our naval production. The plan I put forward adds only 25 ships. What I'm not sure of is whether we should keep the sub/destroyer mix or just make all subs or all destroyers.

@Paul: I'm not sure jets are all that helpful in preventing landings. Our bombers will have to strike enemy armadas when they are 6 or 7 tiles form our shores. Any jets on air superiority missions aren't going to help those bombers.