PREVIEW: SymNES II
- Thread starter Symphony D.
- Start date
JosefStalinator
Я буду снова здесь
Gah! Well, later maybe I'll draft up some random consonant clusters, and see what you guys think we should do with them (With dashes, where to place potential dashes, without). Unless someone else who is more knowledgeable wants to do it first.
And on the note of language uniqueness; don't consider any sort of "proto-dictionary" the gospel. Languages can do whatever and evolve in whichever direction the player desires (within reason of course), these are just basic outlines that will give a common binding linguistic history to our peoples in their cradles.
jalapeno_dude
AKA Panda Judo Eel
Though unilateral declarations of location are going to be ignored, I might as well say that the area that most fits what I have in mind is the eastern branch of the large river in Origin 2.
On the subject of linguistics:
I assume languages will have already differentiated a fair amount. We're probably looking at several thousand years since all the Proto-Asonic languages were identical--and a lot of change can happen in several thousand years.
In terms of consonant content, we should base it on Proto-Indo-European consonants. At a minimum, we need m,n,p,b,bh,t,d,dh,k,g, and gh. Maybe we should have f instead of s, and only have w, r, and h in addition.
Assuming people are okay with that, this is a large list of around 300 generated 2-4 letter roots (there may be duplicates, I didn't bother checking). Underscores show divisions between letters, since d_h is different than dh. Start assigning meanings to this!
And someone should do the same thing for Origin 1, but pick a different initial consonant system.
EDIT: Josef, beat you to it. Though if you're in Origin 1 you might want to do the same thing.
On the subject of linguistics:
I assume languages will have already differentiated a fair amount. We're probably looking at several thousand years since all the Proto-Asonic languages were identical--and a lot of change can happen in several thousand years.
In terms of consonant content, we should base it on Proto-Indo-European consonants. At a minimum, we need m,n,p,b,bh,t,d,dh,k,g, and gh. Maybe we should have f instead of s, and only have w, r, and h in addition.
Assuming people are okay with that, this is a large list of around 300 generated 2-4 letter roots (there may be duplicates, I didn't bother checking). Underscores show divisions between letters, since d_h is different than dh. Start assigning meanings to this!
Spoiler roots :
And someone should do the same thing for Origin 1, but pick a different initial consonant system.
EDIT: Josef, beat you to it. Though if you're in Origin 1 you might want to do the same thing.
JosefStalinator
Я буду снова здесь
@Jalapeño Dude:
No, thank you, I was hoping someone would provide a nice model. I'll do the same for origin one in a bit. Any suggestions on different (and similar) consonants we could use? I'm not at all familiar with anything outside of Indo-European.
No, thank you, I was hoping someone would provide a nice model. I'll do the same for origin one in a bit. Any suggestions on different (and similar) consonants we could use? I'm not at all familiar with anything outside of Indo-European.
jalapeno_dude
AKA Panda Judo Eel
Here are four other proto-languages.
I think the latter two are the most interesting, especially since they're highly geographically separated from Proto-Indo-European.
Pick one of them, make a change or two (My suggestions: for Proto-Algonquian replace r with l, w with h, and add ng; for Proto-Pama-Nyungan: get rid of w and y and add f and th). Then go here. For word patterns, I used CVC and CVCVC and CVCVCVC, then put _ as the only vowel (so consonants were separated). Then put the list of consonants in (for Proto-Algonquin, the theta is a th sound and the s with a u over it is a sh sound and the c with a u over it is a ch sound). Keep generating words and pasting them into a document until you have 300 or so. Then post them here.
I think the latter two are the most interesting, especially since they're highly geographically separated from Proto-Indo-European.
Pick one of them, make a change or two (My suggestions: for Proto-Algonquian replace r with l, w with h, and add ng; for Proto-Pama-Nyungan: get rid of w and y and add f and th). Then go here. For word patterns, I used CVC and CVCVC and CVCVCVC, then put _ as the only vowel (so consonants were separated). Then put the list of consonants in (for Proto-Algonquin, the theta is a th sound and the s with a u over it is a sh sound and the c with a u over it is a ch sound). Keep generating words and pasting them into a document until you have 300 or so. Then post them here.
JosefStalinator
Я буду снова здесь
With Jalapeño Dude's suggestions:
Look good to everyone? We should start assigning them some English roots soon.
Spoiler Origin 1 Roots :
Look good to everyone? We should start assigning them some English roots soon.
jalapeno_dude
AKA Panda Judo Eel
I see you went with Proto-Algonquian.
------------------------
Okay, now I need a way to get Shaituhu out of Proto-Asonic. This essentially means I have to get rid of aspirated stops, add ng, s, z, and x, and get rid of w and r.
The first step is basically Grimm's Law--aspirated stops->voiced stops, voiced stops-->voiceless stops, and voiceless stops-->voiceless fricatives.
So I have bh>b,b>p,p>f; dh>d,d>t,t>s; gh>g,g>k,k>z.
Now, I need to get rid of the labial consonants (b,p,f,m). This can be done with a chain shift that sends labials to alveolars and alveolars to velars, which isn't totally implausible. I'll justify this by saying that a thousand years ago or so, lip-piercing was common among the Proto-Shaituhu, making it hard to differentiate labials. (Now only shamans practice lip-piercing, but the language has shifted. Maybe in a thousand years labials will reappear.)
So the new rules are m>n,b>d,p>t,f>s; n>ng,d>g,t>k,s>x.
Now I need to get rid of w and r. This is relatively simple--w and r aren't really articulated clearly, so they get articulated even less clearly in the process of lenition (weakening). So I have w,r>h.
Finally, I need to get z somehow. Let's say s becomes z (i.e. it's voiced) after other voiced consonants. This accounts for dz,gz,nz,ngz. After the change, new words were coined with an isolated z, but you won't find any of those in words with Proto-Asonic roots.
Oh, and there's a glottal stop. But it's not written, and I'll assume Proto-Asonic did the same thing (most languages did).
So in 4 changes, I've derived Shaituhu:
1. Aspirated-->Voiced-->Voiceless-->Fricative.
2. Labial-->Alveolar-->Velar.
3. w,r-->h.
4. s-->z after n,ng,g,d.
I knew that Historical Linguistics course would come in handy...
------------------------
Okay, now I need a way to get Shaituhu out of Proto-Asonic. This essentially means I have to get rid of aspirated stops, add ng, s, z, and x, and get rid of w and r.
The first step is basically Grimm's Law--aspirated stops->voiced stops, voiced stops-->voiceless stops, and voiceless stops-->voiceless fricatives.
So I have bh>b,b>p,p>f; dh>d,d>t,t>s; gh>g,g>k,k>z.
Now, I need to get rid of the labial consonants (b,p,f,m). This can be done with a chain shift that sends labials to alveolars and alveolars to velars, which isn't totally implausible. I'll justify this by saying that a thousand years ago or so, lip-piercing was common among the Proto-Shaituhu, making it hard to differentiate labials. (Now only shamans practice lip-piercing, but the language has shifted. Maybe in a thousand years labials will reappear.)
So the new rules are m>n,b>d,p>t,f>s; n>ng,d>g,t>k,s>x.
Now I need to get rid of w and r. This is relatively simple--w and r aren't really articulated clearly, so they get articulated even less clearly in the process of lenition (weakening). So I have w,r>h.
Finally, I need to get z somehow. Let's say s becomes z (i.e. it's voiced) after other voiced consonants. This accounts for dz,gz,nz,ngz. After the change, new words were coined with an isolated z, but you won't find any of those in words with Proto-Asonic roots.
Oh, and there's a glottal stop. But it's not written, and I'll assume Proto-Asonic did the same thing (most languages did).
So in 4 changes, I've derived Shaituhu:
1. Aspirated-->Voiced-->Voiceless-->Fricative.
2. Labial-->Alveolar-->Velar.
3. w,r-->h.
4. s-->z after n,ng,g,d.
I knew that Historical Linguistics course would come in handy...
Fuschia
A Little Odd
No, it does not. To assume that the same consonants as English will be used in another language seems to me rather bland. First and foremost, what sounds are available for use should be clarified.
After that, creating random roots is not the problem, nor even assigning them words and definitions. It is the other, more difficult aspects of language, such as sentence structure, which are very important. Also, you have to formalize things such as plural rules, different verb tenses, how one specifies what a very applies to, the possible addition of masculinity/femininity in nouns, etc.
Anyways, first and foremost a decision has to be made as to what sounds are to be used for each proto-language. I will have a suggestion up tomorrow. I have a set completed today, but I am about to go to sleep, so I'll put it up in the morning for review. Hopefully it makes some sort of sense when I do.
EDIT: Aren't Josef and Jalapeno in different cradles? It makes little sense to use the same roots for both languages, unless I am completely misunderstanding Jalapeno's post, which is very possible.
After that, creating random roots is not the problem, nor even assigning them words and definitions. It is the other, more difficult aspects of language, such as sentence structure, which are very important. Also, you have to formalize things such as plural rules, different verb tenses, how one specifies what a very applies to, the possible addition of masculinity/femininity in nouns, etc.
Anyways, first and foremost a decision has to be made as to what sounds are to be used for each proto-language. I will have a suggestion up tomorrow. I have a set completed today, but I am about to go to sleep, so I'll put it up in the morning for review. Hopefully it makes some sort of sense when I do.
EDIT: Aren't Josef and Jalapeno in different cradles? It makes little sense to use the same roots for both languages, unless I am completely misunderstanding Jalapeno's post, which is very possible.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Are we going to agree on something else, or will Ialian work?
By the way, those maps look really amazing.
Origin One/Proto-Central-Ialian
Thlayli
Birdjaguar
Chandrasekhar
JosefStalinator
Fuschia
North_King
Origin Two/Proto-Central-Anosic
jalapeno_dude
LightFang
das
erez
Swissempire
Thlayli
Birdjaguar
Chandrasekhar
JosefStalinator
Fuschia
North_King
Origin Two/Proto-Central-Anosic
jalapeno_dude
LightFang
das
erez
Swissempire
By the way, those maps look really amazing.
jalapeno_dude
AKA Panda Judo Eel
@Fuschia: What Josef and I have been doing is picking sounds for proto-languages. Proto-Asonic is based off Proto-Indo-European and described in post 143, while Proto-Ialian is based of Proto-Algonquian and described in post 145. Two sets of roots have been generated--Proto-Asonic roots are in Post 143 and Proto-Ialian are in Post 146.
With regard to your other points: I'm fairly certain that syntax and morphology change in languages much more drastically than phonetics--so detailing the grammar of a proto-language wouldn't really help much. The languages we're making, in my understanding, are as far apart as, say, German and Greek, which have very different grammar but similar phonetics.
So we should base the phonetics in each region off of a common source but each come up with our own grammar. Do you agree?
EDIT: @Thlayli--see above. We generated two distinct sets of roots, one for each language family.
With regard to your other points: I'm fairly certain that syntax and morphology change in languages much more drastically than phonetics--so detailing the grammar of a proto-language wouldn't really help much. The languages we're making, in my understanding, are as far apart as, say, German and Greek, which have very different grammar but similar phonetics.
So we should base the phonetics in each region off of a common source but each come up with our own grammar. Do you agree?
EDIT: @Thlayli--see above. We generated two distinct sets of roots, one for each language family.
North King
blech
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2004
- Messages
- 18,165
Since jal, das, and Swiss are in my BirdNES cradle, I think it'll be easier for me and more interesting if I go with cradle One. Consider me in there, though I might be doing a language isolate -- would you mind, Symphony?
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Proto-Algonquian is actually quite appropriate Jal, since it seems like Origin 1 resembles Mesoamerica in climate potential more than anything else.
Fuschia
A Little Odd
I suppose I agree. Although simply taking sounds from a real-life proto-language seems boring to me, I suppose it is easiest to do, and I can always get from there to mine with a little bit of explanation. Consider it accepted, unless I sleep on it and find some reason to reject it, which I won't.
jalapeno_dude
AKA Panda Judo Eel
I suppose. I wasn't thinking of that, though--I don't really think that climate affects language structure (though that was a popular theory in the 1800s). I was honestly just looking for interesting-looking proto-languages on Wikipedia.
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@Origin Two People: Can we all agree on the structure and root list for Proto-Asonic detailed in post 143?
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@Fuschia: The "little bit of explanation" is the fun part! See my post 147.
Note, too, that I modified real-life proto-languages because I wanted to have a consistent sound structure. Languages in general tend to follow certain patterns, and I didn't want to mess them up.
And also, we did make some small modifications to each language, just because.
~Darkening~
Weep, Mother.
I see no one else asking for a spot
. I'll wait, I guess, until turn three at this rate .
Swissempire
Poet Jester
I'll agree to the system for Origin 2 that is the easiest to understand. If there is one of the word generators and you give me the stuff to copy paste, I'll do it.
Linguistics isn't my thing, and I'm not going to make an ass of myself and pretend to understand it. I acknowledge my shortcoming and will sit back and watch.
Linguistics isn't my thing, and I'm not going to make an ass of myself and pretend to understand it. I acknowledge my shortcoming and will sit back and watch.
Hear! Hear!
jalapeno_dude
AKA Panda Judo Eel
Since you two agree, is there any chance one of you could take one of the lists of essential words from this thread and start matching these words to the Proto-Asonic roots in Post 143?
Symphony D.
Deity
Retroactive deletion.
