Proposed: expansion of foreign language threads

[schlaufuchs]

So in Offtopic we have the "101" threads, which were ostensibly threads for learners of non-English languages to interact with fluent speakers and perfect their language skills. Speaking in non-English is disallowed unless an English translation is provided and (I'm pretty sure) disallowed outright outside of the 101 thread. Anyway, it's great, but I think there are some genuine problems with this. Specifically, that the 101 threads don't have any ostensible discussion topic to speak of, so the result in all (or at least all the ones I've participated in) of these types of threads everything boils down to:

1) learner submits phrase
2) fluent speaker provides corrections
3) discussion ends; return to 1)

This is all well and good, and corrections and feedback are important for learners, but I don't feel that it helps people actually learn the language because no conversation is occurring, and certainly not in any kind of an organic manner. So what I propose to fix that is the introduction of some kind of foreign language discussion threads. So for example, say you read an article in, I don't know, "El Mundo" or something, and you wanted to discuss it. You would start a thread titled: Español: [discussion title] (maybe have icons similar to RD icons for whatever language it is, which would ensure that discussion couldn't happen in languages not pre-approved by the mods). Anyway, this would indicate to readers that this is a Spanish thread, and that discussion should happen primarily in Spanish. Obviously English translations would have to be provided in spoilers as with all non-English posted on cfc, and responses in English would certainly be allowed, as they are in the 101 threads. Ultimately though, the focus would be on practicing the non-English language in a more conversational, dialectic fashion, thus facilitating more emergent, less stiff practice of the language in question.

I'm open to other ways to go about doing this. Takh proposed a separate foreign language subthread, and that's certainly another way of doing it if clutter of OT is the concern. I just don't think the 101 threads are the best way for people to practice their non-English writing skills.

Also before you ask: no I'm not going to join a non-English forum, so kindly leave the, "Stop complaining; just go elsewhere to practice your Spanish/French/German" comments at home, thank you.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

As long as there is a moderator who is fluent in the language (whichever it might be) to make sure it's an actual conversation happening, I think this is a worthwhile thing to try. I've belonged to forums that are bilingual (English/Latin and English/German), trilingual (English, French, and German), and another that has even more options.

And if somebody wants to have a discussion in a language that none of the moderators are fluent in, someone who is fluent could monitor the thread and report any problems.

 

[ori]

There are essentially two obstacles, Valka D'Ur already did discuss one: moderation - we do try to moderate all threads around here and even though the odd 101 thread is not much workload, opening that up to essentially allow all sorts of discussion threads in multiple languages might mean some threads are no longer covered at all, which may or may not be desireable. Although this could be solved through staff recruitment.

The second point is that the english only rule that governs the site actually ensures that all users have a chance of participating in essentially all discussion* - opening multi languages to this would actually separate discussion into groups separated by language barrieres, here I am not so sure that would be a good idea.

Still personally I am open to trying this - at some point**

* - yeah biased towards those fluent in english language I know.
** - this does not mean that such a trial if it would be done should be postponed indefinitely, I however anticipate that we will have to take a few weeks or months off of trying new potentially workintensive things (that would be OT centric) when we rererorganize OT, which I fully expect to happen reasonably soon.

 

[Camikaze]

As a frequenter of the Deutsch 101 thread, I think this is a good idea. Though those obstacles do exist (clearly we don't have enough German moderators ).

A more workable idea may be to have a single discussion thread for each language, in which any topic can be discussed. When there are only a small number of users, a single thread for all topics is entirely workable.

 

[schlaufuchs]

There are essentially two obstacles, Valka D'Ur already did discuss one: moderation - we do try to moderate all threads around here and even though the odd 101 thread is not much workload, opening that up to essentially allow all sorts of discussion threads in multiple languages might mean some threads are no longer covered at all, which may or may not be desireable. Although this could be solved through staff recruitment.

The second point is that the english only rule that governs the site actually ensures that all users have a chance of participating in essentially all discussion* - opening multi languages to this would actually separate discussion into groups separated by language barrieres, here I am not so sure that would be a good idea.

Still personally I am open to trying this - at some point**

* - yeah biased towards those fluent in english language I know.
** - this does not mean that such a trial if it would be done should be postponed indefinitely, I however anticipate that we will have to take a few weeks or months off of trying new potentially workintensive things (that would be OT centric) when we rererorganize OT, which I fully expect to happen reasonably soon.

Thanks for the feedback! It's certainly gratifying to hear a OT unification may be coming. As to the two concerns you listed: I covered them at least to some extent in the OP. Gaps in moderation/tons of language threads can be restricted by: either only allowing discussion in moderator-approved languages, which to an extent already happens (as I recall 101 threads require moderator approval), so that could help reduce non-moderatable languages (though German is certainly the language I am primarily interested in). Alternatively you could require all non-English threads to have moderator approval prior to opening, although that would certainly increase the mod-work.

As to the second point: like I said, all posts would require English translations, as per the cfc rules, and posts in English would still be allowed, much like they are in the 101 threads, so it wouldn't restrict discussion, so much as modify it to focus on non-English things. I don't know if that makes sense, but to me it's rather like a lot of other things: posters for a large part are already segmented based on interest. There are a lot of people who have no interest in discussion of art or architecture threads, there are those who have no interest in economic discussion, and there are those who have no interest in non-civ discussions at all. Those who aren't interested in those sorts of discussions don't participate in them, though they are free to if the fancy ever captured them, and here it would be no different.

Moreover I think that, rather than blocking off discussion, the implementation of this would increase discussion by opening the forum up to more non-English threads. How many threads do you see discussing el Mundo/le Monde/die Welt articles? Not many, practically none when contrasted with the amount of NYT/WSJ/Daily Mail/your newspaper here articles. I don't know how much of that would change, as I think part of it is that translating a whole article into English is rather tedious, and that obviously would not change, but at least it creates a subset of threads in which discussion of non-English articles and issues is encouraged.

And finally (for now) I think this solves a problem that the Tavern (at least) has been having, namely that thread topics have been getting really...samey lately and it kind of creates for a boring atmosphere. And if it's boring for me, an American who lives with the issues, I can't imagine what it must be like for a Non-American who has no interest in the issues at hand/the issues impact them in exactly zero ways, so again, it allows for more cosmopolitan discussion and ensures that those participating in it would be at least somewhat interested (even those not interested in the topic specifically will have an interest in participating in the thread).

 

[The_J]

mmhh...are there not already discussions regarding a country's current events going on in the related 101 threads (at least sometimes)? I remember it from the Dutch and German 101.

 

[Takhisis]

No, The_J, that's why there's Ask A Dutchman and other threads.

Maybe we could have a separate non-English subforum?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

They would need to recruit bilingual moderators for that.

Mind you, I've seen it work on another gaming forum (there's a forum specifically for German-speaking posters, and has a couple of German/English-speaking moderators), a graphics forum I belong to (dedicated subforums for German and French speakers; that forum is fortunate to have a trilingual moderator), and a writing forum I belong to has a subforum for quite a number of non-English languages.

 

[schlaufuchs]

They would need to recruit bilingual moderators for that.

Mind you, I've seen it work on another gaming forum (there's a forum specifically for German-speaking posters, and has a couple of German/English-speaking moderators), a graphics forum I belong to (dedicated subforums for German and French speakers; that forum is fortunate to have a trilingual moderator), and a writing forum I belong to has a subforum for quite a number of non-English languages.

If there's any mods who don't mind doing double duty, I can't imagine the work load for the subforum (small subset of non-problem posters, it's generally easier to be more personal with rule enforcement). At the most a mod would have to look into, I would imagine, 2, maybe 3 threads every week or so (I really can't imagine the number of reports in these threads being all that high). As I said before, we could have a list of accepted languages which need mod approval before threads could be posted in that language.

A more workable idea may be to have a single discussion thread for each language, in which any topic can be discussed. When there are only a small number of users, a single thread for all topics is entirely workable.

I don't really think this would be a particularly good solution as the whole impetus for the change on my part is the fact that, because the 101 threads already are broad ranging "discussion" threads, conversation becomes unfocused which prevents people from actually being able to converse naturally in a non-English language. This proposal would really be little more than mashing all the 101 threads into one super-thread which, in addition to magnifying all the issues with the 101 threads as they already are, would add the additional troubles of a) being so scattered and all over the place (one post on one topic in German followed by another entirely different discussion in French followed by a third conversation in Spanish) which would make it impossible for most people to follow the discussion, b) make it less clear which languages you can and can't converse in, and c) make it an absolute mess for moderation.

 

[Takhisis]

I think the {language name} - {Topic} scheme would work best, in a separate subforum. But I wouldn't like the forum to be called 'foreign language'. 'Other languages', 'Non-English talk' or some nerdy latinoid name would sound better to me. 'Foreign languages' has too much of an us v. them, as if the forum had foreigners and real forumers who really belong there.

 

[metatron]

stuff

Mini debates (on largely non-controversial and mundane things) occur naturally and organically in the 101 threads - typically between native speakers (of that foreign language) and typically in English.

And this is the problem:
The commandment to provide a translation absolutely kills any naturally flowing conversation in the foreign language.
It's absurdely bothersome and awkward as soon as it's supposed to happen in an actual conversation.

I've written quite a lot in German 101. And many things ammounted to something remotely resembling - you know - work. And usually that's fine.
I don't mind making up a bunch of examples for some grammatical rule and translating all of that. It's technical and awkward and - as far as actual language goes - freaking dead anyway.

But having a fluent conversation with a non-native speaker in German (about food or the weather or what have you) and translating all i'm writing back into English while getting a brain cramp in the futile effort not to opt for German constructions and vocabulary that will make the translation part less bothersome?

I've tried it. It su-hu-hu-hucks! I refuse to do it.
I have not seen anybody else do it for more than one or two short posts.

Because it sucks.


Edit: And yeah, the rule makes loads of sense. Since we have no German moderators any untranslated conversation would default to Nazi-Porn-PDMA in no time...

 

[schlaufuchs]

Edit: And yeah, the rule makes loads of sense. Since we have no German moderators any untranslated conversation would default to Nazi-Porn-PDMA in no time...

I don't think it exists for the moderator so much as it exists for the uninformed users to ensure they aren't just being flamed unknowingly. It is an admittedly dumb rule because if users cared to know there is always google translate which, while it wouldn't give a perfect translation, would at least give the user a general idea of what was expressed.

I just don't think the discussion in the 101 threads was organic enough to really be helpful, coming from a non-native speaker standpoint. Things felt artificial, I felt strained to come up with things to talk about, and even when I did come up with things to talk about I felt more like I was submitting statements to a teacher/computer for revision/correction than I felt like I was actually practicing the language in a conversational manner. It wasn't really helping me practice.

 

[metatron]

I just don't think the discussion in the 101 threads was organic enough to really be helpful, coming from a non-native speaker standpoint. Things felt artificial, I felt strained to come up with things to talk about, and even when I did come up with things to talk about I felt more like I was submitting statements to a teacher/computer for revision/correction than I felt like I was actually practicing the language in a conversational manner. It wasn't really helping me practice.

My point is that German 101 feels the same way to me. Because of the everything-in-duplicate nonsense.
Well, without the presumption of grammatical inferiority, but still.

The translation rule makes native speakers (me anyway) tense up and write (in the native language that is topic of the thread) like odd beings with a gray rectangular soul. I can only imagine what it does to the non-native speakers.

I remember having had short reasonably organic debates in German 101.
Completely in English though, for the aforementioned reasons.

If this translation rule manages to de-immerse me from my own native language, how is this supposed to work out for the non-native speakers?

 

[Takhisis]

It doesn't. The same happens in Españish 101.

 

[Takhisis]

Have there been any further developments?

 

[Camikaze]

No, there haven't. Not to say there won't be, but there haven't been any so far.

 

[metatron]

No, there haven't. Not to say there won't be, but there haven't been any so far.

Any news?

 

[Camikaze]

Nope.

 

[metatron]

This is one of those things that are not about SJ debate or US politics debate.
Something that would be nice, and useful and, frankly, increase the reputation of the forum, and above all something where the moderation doesn't have to step in every day to fix schoolyard fights.

And all you can come up with after nine months is one syllable?

Unbelievable.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Nope.

While I'm gratified that your answer was succinct, it wasn't very informative.

"Nope" as in "We've been discussing it and haven't come to a decision yet" or "Nope" as in "We don't think it's important enough to bother with/we think it would be too much work to set up/moderate so we don't want to do it"? Or "Nope" for some other reason?

It's a reasonable request that was originally made, good arguments were put forth as to why this expansion is a good idea, plenty of time has gone by for discussions, and I think a better answer is deserved than "Nope."