Protective Trait-- Underrated?

[civvver]

I like the happiness from walls and castles idea. How would I mod that in?

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I still think creative is comparatively the worst. Cheap libraries? Eh... they're pretty cheap already. +2 per turn? Eh, build SH or chop/whip monument.

I'll take protective any day. When I random draw something like Expansive/Creative, then I'll be pissy. Is there such a combo?

 

[Bandobras Took]

And I'm amused if you mix up the strength of spiritual and something like religion

How do you plan on building cheap temples without religion?

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

We're wandering off my original point, which was that any trait is worthless if you actively avoid using it. At a rough estimate, 60% of people who say Protective sucks also openly admit that they don't use Archery units and never build walls or castles. That's like saying Philosophical sucks because you never use Specialists.

Completely agree with you, Bandobras Took. I enjoy Protective trait when I draw it randomly. And I'm pretty sure the REAL strength of Spiritual is in the no-anarchy-to-change-civics thing . Cheap temples? eh, just a bonus. At the same time, I like the idea that some leaders are not spiritual, but have access to religion.

 

[Bandobras Took]

We're wandering off my original point, which was that any trait is worthless if you actively avoid using it. At a rough estimate, 60% of people who say Protective sucks also openly admit that they don't use Archery units and never build walls or castles. That's like saying Philosophical sucks because you never use Specialists.

 

[civvver]

Although I don't like protective, I do love some of the protective leaders- charlemange and toko. I know a lot of people dislike toko but I love me some samurai! Gilgamesh has a nice uu and ub, but his traits are so lame, I just can't bring myself to go far with him.

 

[Joshua368]

We're wandering off my original point, which was that any trait is worthless if you actively avoid using it. At a rough estimate, 60% of people who say Protective sucks also openly admit that they don't use Archery units and never build walls or castles. That's like saying Philosophical sucks because you never use Specialists.

There's a difference though in specialists and archers/walls/castles. One is key to keeping up and surpassing the AI in tech at high levels and the other means you aren't playing right as the AI runs and pillages through you lands.

 

[Iranon]

There is an important difference between letting PHI go to waste and letting PRO go to waste: never using any GPP-source at all is blatantly suboptimal - the rewards are simply too great for the ridiculously low cost of the first few.
Archery units can be useful, especially with PRO, but electing not to build any is justifiable in very many games.

 

[Hereditary Rule]

I still think creative is comparatively the worst. Cheap libraries? Eh... they're pretty cheap already. +2 per turn? Eh, build SH or chop/whip monument.

I'll take protective any day. When I random draw something like Expansive/Creative, then I'll be pissy. Is there such a combo?

Sury of Khmer has that combo and he's one of my favorite leaders. Early hammers are worth more than late hammers, and CRE saves the earliest hammers. Instead of your suggested builds, with CRE I would:

- whip a granary, not a monument
- don't build stonehenge, build 2.5 extra workers (over 3 if Sury), 1.2 settlers, or beeline the Great Wall

I find CRE to be but maybe it's because of the map scripts I always play.

Regarding PRO: In the gunpowder age I think the promos are better than AGG promos. I also find castles awesome, especially if you also have stone.

Ultimately I'm finding myself undervaluing both AGG and PRO lately. My best domination score was with Germany which has neither. In wars, pure hammers seem to win the day over promos, at least in my experience.

 

[S.ilver]

I'd have to agree with rolo on this one. Most players simply aren't at their skill level. I consider myself a monarch level player and I play there. Pro has saved me a few times from the machinations of the AI. While it's true that it is usually unwise to hole up in your city and wait, Pro makes your defensive units stronger, so you need less of them. Therefore you can afford to build more of other units, like more active defense horse units, or siege to destroy the enemy stacks.

Regarding obsolete's comment, yes most people don't wait to get attacked, but with Pro, you can run lower power numbers than usual due to having tough as nails garrison units. When the enemy comes knocking you can either make them suicide on your units, or kill them off with an active defense.

 

[civvver]

creative is an awesome trait... you basically don't have to build monuments... that is huge early game.

 

[Joshua368]

EXP/CRE Sury is great. New cities ignore culture and can build granaries/libraries fast to become fully functional cities in record time.

Granaries are probably one of my favorite cheap buildings... they may be cheap already but you want them asap in new cities, cities which are trying to grow and don't really have much production. Getting them twice as fast and make a big difference.


Also on Immortal I've had big AI stacks pressed up against my cities before. I've found throwing seige and then melee/mounted at the stacks far more effective then letting them bombard my defenses down and collateral my units to death. Like Aggressive, Protective becomes a lot less powerful after the early rush era... the best defense is a good offense with a nice chunk of seige, even if fighting within your borders.

 

[pi-r8]

god i hate protective so much. It's like

"hey there Mr. Axe, come and get me! I've got level 4 archers and big city walls everywhere"

"no thanks. I think I'll just pillage this gold mine instead."

"What... no don't do that. come and attack me."

*gold mine destroyed*
*1 unhappy face appears everywhere*

"yeah well... you'll be sorry when you decided to attack me!"

*more pillaging*

 

[TheMeInTeam]

CRE = faster city setups, faster first GS, faster research by a few turns which means you can press expansion sooner.

Not a top trait but in a league far above PRO.

 

[r_rolo1]

CRE = half priced libs and theatres That is the REAL advantage of CRE

 

[CivCorpse]

Just a few notes on Protective. Pleae keep in mind I play Huge maps at Marathon speed. Speed doesn't affect Protective but it is the game speed that is meant for huge maps. I also play at Emporer level and lose about 50% of the time. I feel that if you are winning most of your games then you need to go up a level and leader traits are not important because you will win regardless at the level you are playing.

A. Huge maps mean more Ai. The diplomatic game is a nightmare as the Ai is constantly making demands that you cease trading with their enemies or join their silly wars. Eventually someone bigger and badder than you is going to DOW you and then you will really appreciate the benefits of Protective. Turtling up in your cities is NOT the best way to fight a war. But it is sometimes the only choice you have. Having CG2D1 defenders is always better than having CG1 defenders. And when you are in a frantic rush to build defenders to hold your cities archery units are as cheap as they get. And that last archer/longbow you whipped just as the Ai attacks has CG1D1 already.

B. You're not always going to have the tech lead. If you always have the tech lead move up a level. So there is a good chance the counter for the era is not available. Facing Jumbos but don't have Engineering? A CG2D1 longbow is a pretty stout counter unit. Or a D2Formation LB as a stack defender.
There is also a good chance that you don't have maces when your opponent does. As a Protective leader you can opt for Machinery before Civil Service. Drill2Formation x-bows are great for attacking that big stack of mixed units. Unless the Ai has Jumbos or knights, a Drill2Formation x-bow will beat pretty much anything in that stack. Only cover promoted archery units or cover maces stand a reasonable chance. I rarely see a cover archery unit in an Ai SOD and cover maces are few and far between. You can usually get 2 attacks on the SOD while they bombard away the defenses from the culture and WALLS. I usually have on medic1 defender in a besieged city. Giving your x-bows a full turn to heal before the assault can usually get them up to full strength.

C. If you don't have at least one city you really value threatened atleast once per game, you need to move up in difficulty level. Defeating the enemy SOD in the open field is the best way to stop such a threat...IF you have the troops to do it. If you are happily conquering your neighbor when he vassalizes to your neighbor on the other side, you may find your own troops too far away to deal with a monster SOD from the other direction. Protective can buy you the time you need to get troops where you need them. The same with a dog pile. 1 vs 1 you can usually beat the AI SOD. But what happens when 2 of them roll in at about the same time? You turtle up on one side while you deal with the threat on the other.

 

[_invy_]

I played a lot with protective trait and i found to like it. First time I ignored Walls and Castles.. stupid. Going for early Engineering is actually good research path and most players ignore it. Movement bonus is important, Pikes too, Castles grant extra trade route!!!

And I like to have Walls+Castles in border cities, these helps A LOT since AI stops and bombard cities. Def bonus of Castles doesn't go obsolete. Early in game if your neighbour is aggresive leader like Alex you learn to like Protective and its cheap walls. Axemans doesn't have a chance vs protective archers behind walls, and even Swords die vs Archers. Later on protective Longbows can kill even Cuirassers often.. thats good enough for me.

So yes promotions are great. And this trait really help AI's, they are way harder to kill then leader with financial trait for example.

In the end, Protective is not the best trait, but it is definatelly good. I wouldn't mind cheaper SB, Jail or Intelligence Agency..

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Just a few notes on Protective. Pleae keep in mind I play Huge maps at Marathon speed. Speed doesn't affect Protective but it is the game speed that is meant for huge maps. I also play at Emporer level and lose about 50% of the time. I feel that if you are winning most of your games then you need to go up a level and leader traits are not important because you will win regardless at the level you are playing.

A. Huge maps mean more Ai. The diplomatic game is a nightmare as the Ai is constantly making demands that you cease trading with their enemies or join their silly wars. Eventually someone bigger and badder than you is going to DOW you and then you will really appreciate the benefits of Protective. Turtling up in your cities is NOT the best way to fight a war. But it is sometimes the only choice you have. Having CG2D1 defenders is always better than having CG1 defenders. And when you are in a frantic rush to build defenders to hold your cities archery units are as cheap as they get. And that last archer/longbow you whipped just as the Ai attacks has CG1D1 already.

B. You're not always going to have the tech lead. If you always have the tech lead move up a level. So there is a good chance the counter for the era is not available. Facing Jumbos but don't have Engineering? A CG2D1 longbow is a pretty stout counter unit. Or a D2Formation LB as a stack defender.
There is also a good chance that you don't have maces when your opponent does. As a Protective leader you can opt for Machinery before Civil Service. Drill2Formation x-bows are great for attacking that big stack of mixed units. Unless the Ai has Jumbos or knights, a Drill2Formation x-bow will beat pretty much anything in that stack. Only cover promoted archery units or cover maces stand a reasonable chance. I rarely see a cover archery unit in an Ai SOD and cover maces are few and far between. You can usually get 2 attacks on the SOD while they bombard away the defenses from the culture and WALLS. I usually have on medic1 defender in a besieged city. Giving your x-bows a full turn to heal before the assault can usually get them up to full strength.

C. If you don't have at least one city you really value threatened atleast once per game, you need to move up in difficulty level. Defeating the enemy SOD in the open field is the best way to stop such a threat...IF you have the troops to do it. If you are happily conquering your neighbor when he vassalizes to your neighbor on the other side, you may find your own troops too far away to deal with a monster SOD from the other direction. Protective can buy you the time you need to get troops where you need them. The same with a dog pile. 1 vs 1 you can usually beat the AI SOD. But what happens when 2 of them roll in at about the same time? You turtle up on one side while you deal with the threat on the other.

1. PRO is, in fact, affected by speed. Like the other warmonger traits, it benefits from a free heroic epic in every singe city on the map that marathon yields. When you hit gunpowder ---> rifling, this is an advantage that lasts ridiculously long.

2. Some people gain and hold tech leads on deity. I'm not one of them, but they'd have a hard time moving up . Most players can, however, attain a tech lead at some point on their proper level.

3. A lot of maps allow diplomacy such that you're never invaded or threatened. This is actually over 50% of my games (happens to be independent of level!). Barring deadly warmongers spawning in such a way that they only border you, its almost always possible to duck early war. Often, if it isn't, you attack the sole threat. PRO might help if you get surrounded or something, but that's quite rare.

4. IMO, siege + almost anything is probably the best defense. It will own stacks. Counter units can be built to knock off stray pillagers. While shock longbows and whatever might be helpful, it's a bit of a niche thing.

 

[Calouste]

creative is an awesome trait... you basically don't have to build monuments... that is huge early game.

As a collatoral, you can put of researching Mysticism for a long time. I only research it when I need it, which usually means when looking at Literature, Philosophy or Monarchy, or when I have a neighbor that is spamming missionaries.

With Creative you also get the first border pop a lot faster than going with monuments. Which means faster access to resources in the outer ring of the BFC (which in turn gives a bit more flexibilty in city placement), more fogbusting, more advance warning for barbarians, etc

 

[Belisar]

How do you plan on building cheap temples without religion?

First, the religions come from the AI, you don't have to chase them (and in fact, you shouldn't, as the more AIs that have different religions, the better for you.
Second, you don't seem to understand the real strength of spiritual, the continuous switch between slavery and caste alone is worth a difficult level.
enough off topic.

We're wandering off my original point, which was that any trait is worthless if you actively avoid using it. At a rough estimate, 60% of people who say Protective sucks also openly admit that they don't use Archery units and never build walls or castles. That's like saying Philosophical sucks because you never use Specialists.

You seem to misunderstand the following: Just because you can do something, it doesn't mean it's good or efficient.
Leveraging philo with specs is a strong move, leveraging pro by building a lot of walls is in most situations dubious.
You have limited ressources in a given situation and those are to be spent as efficient as possible.
Leveraging something weak is still something mediocre.