Protective Trait-- Underrated?

[Bandobras Took]

EVEN MORE FALSE!

<BuildingInfo>
<BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_CASTLE</BuildingClass>
<Type>BUILDING_CASTLE</Type>
<SpecialBuildingType>NONE</SpecialBuildingType>
<Description>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_CASTLE</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_CASTLE_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<Strategy>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_CASTLE_STRATEGY</Strategy>
<Advisor>ADVISOR_MILITARY</Advisor>
<ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_BUILDING_CASTLE</ArtDefineTag>
<MovieDefineTag>NONE</MovieDefineTag>
<HolyCity>NONE</HolyCity>
<ReligionType>NONE</ReligionType>
<StateReligion>NONE</StateReligion>
<bStateReligion>0</bStateReligion>
<PrereqReligion>NONE</PrereqReligion>
<PrereqCorporation>NONE</PrereqCorporation>
<FoundsCorporation>NONE</FoundsCorporation>
<GlobalReligionCommerce>NONE</GlobalReligionCommerce>
<GlobalCorporationCommerce>NONE</GlobalCorporationCommerce>
<VictoryPrereq>NONE</VictoryPrereq>
<FreeStartEra>NONE</FreeStartEra>
<MaxStartEra>NONE</MaxStartEra>
<ObsoleteTech>TECH_ECONOMICS</ObsoleteTech>
<PrereqTech>TECH_ENGINEERING</PrereqTech>
<TechTypes/>
<Bonus>NONE</Bonus>
<PrereqBonuses/>
<ProductionTraits>
<ProductionTrait>
<ProductionTraitType>TRAIT_PROTECTIVE</ProductionTraitType>
<iProductionTrait>100</iProductionTrait>
</ProductionTrait>
</ProductionTraits>
<HappinessTraits/>
<NoBonus>NONE</NoBonus>
<PowerBonus>NONE</PowerBonus>
<FreeBonus>NONE</FreeBonus>
<iNumFreeBonuses>0</iNumFreeBonuses>
<FreeBuilding>NONE</FreeBuilding>
<FreePromotion>NONE</FreePromotion>
<CivicOption>NONE</CivicOption>
<GreatPeopleUnitClass>NONE</GreatPeopleUnitClass>
<iGreatPeopleRateChange>0</iGreatPeopleRateChange>
<iHurryAngerModifier>0</iHurryAngerModifier>
<bBorderObstacle>0</bBorderObstacle>
<bTeamShare>0</bTeamShare>
<bWater>0</bWater>
<bRiver>0</bRiver>
<bPower>0</bPower>
<bDirtyPower>0</bDirtyPower>
<bAreaCleanPower>0</bAreaCleanPower>
<DiploVoteType>NONE</DiploVoteType>
<bForceTeamVoteEligible>0</bForceTeamVoteEligible>
<bCapital>0</bCapital>
<bGovernmentCenter>0</bGovernmentCenter>
<bGoldenAge>0</bGoldenAge>
<bAllowsNukes>0</bAllowsNukes>
<bMapCentering>0</bMapCentering>
<bNoUnhappiness>0</bNoUnhappiness>
<bNoUnhealthyPopulation>0</bNoUnhealthyPopulation>
<bBuildingOnlyHealthy>0</bBuildingOnlyHealthy>
<bNeverCapture>0</bNeverCapture>
<bNukeImmune>0</bNukeImmune>
<bPrereqReligion>0</bPrereqReligion>
<bCenterInCity>1</bCenterInCity>
<iAIWeight>0</iAIWeight>
<iCost>100</iCost>
<iHurryCostModifier>0</iHurryCostModifier>
<iAdvancedStartCost>100</iAdvancedStartCost>
<iAdvancedStartCostIncrease>0</iAdvancedStartCostIncrease>
<iMinAreaSize>-1</iMinAreaSize>
<iConquestProb>0</iConquestProb>
<iCitiesPrereq>0</iCitiesPrereq>
<iTeamsPrereq>0</iTeamsPrereq>
<iLevelPrereq>0</iLevelPrereq>
<iMinLatitude>0</iMinLatitude>
<iMaxLatitude>90</iMaxLatitude>
<iGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iGreatGeneralRateModifier>0</iGreatGeneralRateModifier>
<iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>0</iDomesticGreatGeneralRateModifier>
<iGlobalGreatPeopleRateModifier>0</iGlobalGreatPeopleRateModifier>
<iAnarchyModifier>0</iAnarchyModifier>
<iGoldenAgeModifier>0</iGoldenAgeModifier>
<iGlobalHurryModifier>0</iGlobalHurryModifier>
<iExperience>0</iExperience>
<iGlobalExperience>0</iGlobalExperience>
<iFoodKept>0</iFoodKept>
<iAirlift>0</iAirlift>
<iAirModifier>0</iAirModifier>
<iAirUnitCapacity>0</iAirUnitCapacity>
<iNukeModifier>0</iNukeModifier>
<iNukeExplosionRand>0</iNukeExplosionRand>
<iFreeSpecialist>0</iFreeSpecialist>
<iAreaFreeSpecialist>0</iAreaFreeSpecialist>
<iGlobalFreeSpecialist>0</iGlobalFreeSpecialist>
<iMaintenanceModifier>0</iMaintenanceModifier>
<iWarWearinessModifier>0</iWarWearinessModifier>
<iGlobalWarWearinessModifier>0</iGlobalWarWearinessModifier>
<iEnemyWarWearinessModifier>0</iEnemyWarWearinessModifier>
<iHealRateChange>0</iHealRateChange>
<iHealth>0</iHealth>

<iAreaHealth>0</iAreaHealth>
<iGlobalHealth>0</iGlobalHealth>
<iHappiness>0</iHappiness>
<iAreaHappiness>0</iAreaHappiness>
<iGlobalHappiness>0</iGlobalHappiness>
<iStateReligionHappiness>0</iStateReligionHappiness>
<iWorkerSpeedModifier>0</iWorkerSpeedModifier>
<iMilitaryProductionModifier>0</iMilitaryProductionModifier>
<iSpaceProductionModifier>0</iSpaceProductionModifier>
<iGlobalSpaceProductionModifier>0</iGlobalSpaceProductionModifier>
<iTradeRoutes>1</iTradeRoutes>
<iCoastalTradeRoutes>0</iCoastalTradeRoutes>
<iGlobalTradeRoutes>0</iGlobalTradeRoutes>
<iTradeRouteModifier>0</iTradeRouteModifier>
<iForeignTradeRouteModifier>0</iForeignTradeRouteModifier>
<iGlobalPopulationChange>0</iGlobalPopulationChange>
<iFreeTechs>0</iFreeTechs>
<iDefense>50</iDefense>
<iBombardDefense>25</iBombardDefense>
<iAllCityDefense>0</iAllCityDefense>
<iEspionageDefense>0</iEspionageDefense>
<iAsset>2</iAsset>
<iPower>2</iPower>
<fVisibilityPriority>1.0</fVisibilityPriority>
<SeaPlotYieldChanges/>
<RiverPlotYieldChanges/>
<GlobalSeaPlotYieldChanges/>
<YieldChanges/>
<CommerceChanges/>
<ObsoleteSafeCommerceChanges>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>1</iCommerce>
</ObsoleteSafeCommerceChanges>
<CommerceChangeDoubleTimes>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>1000</iCommerce>
</CommerceChangeDoubleTimes>
<CommerceModifiers>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
<iCommerce>25</iCommerce>
</CommerceModifiers>
<GlobalCommerceModifiers/>
<SpecialistExtraCommerces/>
<StateReligionCommerces/>
<CommerceHappinesses/>
<ReligionChanges/>
<SpecialistCounts/>
<FreeSpecialistCounts/>
<CommerceFlexibles/>
<CommerceChangeOriginalOwners/>
<ConstructSound>AS2D_BUILD_CASTLE</ConstructSound>
<BonusHealthChanges/>
<BonusHappinessChanges/>
<BonusProductionModifiers>
<BonusProductionModifier>
<BonusType>BONUS_STONE</BonusType>
<iProductonModifier>100</iProductonModifier>
</BonusProductionModifier>
</BonusProductionModifiers>
<UnitCombatFreeExperiences/>
<DomainFreeExperiences/>
<DomainProductionModifiers/>
<BuildingHappinessChanges/>
<PrereqBuildingClasses/>
<BuildingClassNeededs>
<BuildingClassNeeded>
<BuildingClassType>BUILDINGCLASS_WALLS</BuildingClassType>
<bNeededInCity>1</bNeededInCity>
</BuildingClassNeeded>
</BuildingClassNeededs>
<SpecialistYieldChanges/>
<BonusYieldModifiers/>
<ImprovementFreeSpecialists/>
<Flavors>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_MILITARY</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>6</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_GOLD</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>4</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_ESPIONAGE</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>4</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
</Flavors>
<HotKey/>
<bAltDown>0</bAltDown>
<bShiftDown>0</bShiftDown>
<bCtrlDown>0</bCtrlDown>
<iHotKeyPriority>0</iHotKeyPriority>
</BuildingInfo>

 

[Bandobras Took]

I started up a Deity game with Wang Kon just for kicks.

There was no Copper near my starting position. There was Iron, but by the time I hooked it up, I had 7 Protective Archers from a Barracks; one fortified on the nearby gold hill. Barbarians didn't seem to be that bad, but it may have been a function of my nearby neighbors? (Standard Continents Low Sea Level map.)

 

[vicawoo]

Oh it looks like they re-added it in 3.13 and that other link is out of date. And you still get a whopping 2000 soldiers, the same as a warrior.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=249653

  1: Warrior, Quechua
  2: Spearman
     Archer
     Chariot
     Galley
     Airship
  3: Impi, Holkan
     War Chariot, Immortal
     Horse Archer
     Axeman, Phalanx
     Swordsman, Jaguar, Gallic Warrior
     Trireme, Caravel, Carrack
     Catapult
  4: Bowman, Skirmisher
     Vulture, Dog Soldier
     Praetorian
     Numidian Cavalry, Keshik
     Hwacha, Trebuchet
     Longbowman, Crossbowman
     Pikeman
     Galleon, Privateer
  5: War Elephant
     Cho-Ko-Nu
     Maceman
     Landsknecht
     East Indiaman
  6: Ballista Elephant
     Samurai
     Musketman
     Knight
     Frigate, Ship of the Line, Ironclad, Transport
  7: Berserker
  8: Camel Archer, Cataphract
     Musketeer, Janissary, Oromo Warrior
     Cannon
     Destroyer, Submarine, Attack Submarine
  9: Cuirassier

It looks like they nerfed unit power ratings, so in 3.13 walls are on par with spears/archers/chariots.

 

[Bandobras Took]

If you seek Engineering early, how many cities will you have by the time you can build castles in them?

 

[_invy_]

Well you can calculate all the axemans spears and whatever but nothing beats PRO archer or later on longbowman in defense which are awesome. In BTS AI is smarter and build counter units better and builts chariots also, and it builds quite a few of them at emperor+. So you'll hide because you can't counter stupid chariot in the stack with your axeman.. Did you forget to build that Spearman ?!
AH there is an axe with chariot I can't use Spear.. My uber counter is not working You smash catas and Axe still can't kill that chariot

Yep you'll get pillaged probably sorry. If its Immortal you have nice chance to lose the city too since AI will have few Chariots with other units most often then not, your spear will die, your axes have 0.01 chance to win the fight.

Wonders.. I could hide in the city?! If I just had time to whip that Wall and buy time arghh, my border city is low pop and Wall is expensive. If I just were protective

It happened to me, AI had large stacks and you can't counter especially when they get Catas first. Try countering Alex's Phalanxes for example.. And when I played and had Copper!! I still built/whipped quite a few Archers -> why, they are overall best defenders. If you think why would I defend, just skip the rest and read last sentence.

Guess what, AI Axe attacks - my defender is Archer, not Axe. And PRO archers kills most of the time Axes. Chariots can't touch them. Swords die too. Thats one good defender.
Later on PRO longbows fortified in cities can stop pretty much anything in their era without problems, including Knights..

About counters: to counter AI stack you must have enough catas and units to kill units in the stack. If you have large stacks as AI early in the game on high difficulties congrats. I usually don't. And you can't counter big stack easily because you can't make much collateral damage, and AI choses counter defender. Its really that simple. So that counterattacking story with axes.. its just stupid.

If you can always counter AI and kill him in the open then try raising difficulty level please.

 

[Kietharr]

It's the worst trait in the game. CG is very marginally useful in most situations, drill is also inferior in most cases unless you can get drill 4 right off the production lines.

Not saying it's bad though, it has its uses, just not as many as every other trait.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

EVEN MORE FALSE!

err... no? <PowerBonus>NONE</PowerBonus>. Quoted from what you posted... leaving aside why would you care if they provided the previous bonus of 2k, which is 1 whooping warrior. And, no offense, but I fail to see on what level you can play where 1k(wall) or 2k(previous castle power) power rating can matter...

Well you can calculate all the axemans spears and whatever but nothing beats PRO archer or later on longbowman in defense which are awesome. In BTS AI is smarter and build counter units better and builts chariots also, and it builds quite a few of them at emperor+. So you'll hide because you can't counter stupid chariot in the stack with your axeman.. Did you forget to build that Spearman ?!

chariots get attack bonus against axes. Axe, when attacking, has 75.1% win chance vs chariot(with c1 each). Precisely as said - don't sit on your behind in the city, get out and attack is the way...

Really, it's the 100th thread about pro... Don't get me wrong, when I watch a football match I'll root for the underdog, but that's it. However, I won't say that the $ is more valuable then the euro, when it takes 1.28 $ to buy a euro, nor that the earth it's flat. Protective is crap from a human POV(it's an excellent ai trait) in single player and that's that... c'est la vie; arguing for the sake of typing is... quite debatable to put it mildly.

P.S. - about the added power of walls on the graph. Let's say it takes, on average, 130% higher power then the ai to prevent a declaration from it's part. A wall... is irrelevant here. And at least from immortal on, there are only 2 situations - you're preparing for war, case in which, regardless of what the graph says, you couldn't care less if you're declared, or you don't prepare for war, case in which keeping a big stationary army is the safest way to lose(by far the safest way to lose) and your power rating will be so tiny that the said wall won't matter anyway. Finally, if that wall is the needed amount to pass over the declaration treshold, just build a friggin' warrior...

 

[Bandobras Took]

err... no? <PowerBonus>NONE</PowerBonus>. Quoted from what you posted... leaving aside why would you care if they provided the previous bonus of 2k, which is 1 whooping warrior. And, no offense, but I fail to see on what level you can play where 1k(wall) or 2k(previous castle power) power rating can matter...

Congratulations. Now try looking at the correct value, which I conveniently bolded so that people wouldn't miss it. Or so I presumed. <ipower></ipower> is where you find the value that the power graph uses. Now, perhaps if you bothered to do research, you wouldn't make such silly little mistakes.

Incidentally, the point is that Walls are a maintenance-free boost to the Power Graph. Obviously they have a side benefit of delaying the attacking stack or destroying them outright if the stack in question has no siege, but a Protective player can work Walls in without sacrificing too much production (as numerous people have pointed out), so they're more likely to have that little edge if necessary. What makes you think that every city which builds a Wall would be building military units instead?

Edit:

In fact, do a little more research and you'll find that a Coal Plant only gives a Power Bonus if it has Coal.

 

[vicawoo]

In a city with low culture/wall defense, the archer will defend. In a city with high culture/wall defense, the (fortified) axe will defend.

Fortified axe in a wall city 8.75
Fortified cg 2 archer 3*(1+0.50+0.50+0.25+0.45)=8.1

 

[PieceOfMind]

What I would really like to see, is a game walkthrough from someone who thinks the trait is weak, using it in what they believe is the best way to use it. It seems just about every person that dismisses it as a "defensive" trait show a complete lack of understanding where the trait's strengths are.

I WISH PEOPLE WOULD FOR A MOMENT FORGET ABOUT WALLS AND CASTLES. There is much more to the PRO trait.

How many people who are pooh-pooh'ing PRO have effectively utilised Drill IV troops? Most people see Drill I as a weak promo so never take that line. I'll repeat... Drill I BY ITSELF is weak, but you will always build a unit which can take Drill II and typically Drill III straight away. It then literally takes one or two VERY SAFE battles to reach Drill IV, because units with extra first strikes earn xp a lot faster than units that have promos that affect strength - this is a quirk in the way xp is calculated (most people would just assume the xp earned is roughly proportional to how hard the battle was - WRONG). Drill IV longbows and crossbows are devastating. This point is continuously ignored though. Everyone just wants to focus on walls and castles.

Another frequently ignored point is that CG promotions work in forts. You don't have to bunker down in cities with CG - you can use the CG promotion in the field, in forts, and keep your siege, air units, whatever else in there.

Now to address more disinformation...

Protective is by far, the worst trait, IMO. It's a defensive trait, and CIV IV is all about the offense. Although it's annoying when the computers all have it and I'm warmongering.

This is where I believe the negative view of PRO stems from. PRO AIs are just a PITA I agree. AGG AIs on the other hand are typically programmed to be very aggressive players. Human players see PRO AIs are really good defenders, so they decide PRO is a defensive trait. Human players will admire AGG AIs on the other hand, as they are out conquering their neighbours. In reality, human players can use AGG for stronger defense, just as they can use PRO for stronger offense.

If you are not prepared to see past PRO as a defensive trait, then you are already ignoring a huge part of its potential. PRO leaders often need fewer troops for defense, thus allowing them to build more attacking units. Actually, PRO gives a big advantage to the drill promotions, which are very useful in attack. I am almost at a point where I would argue that PRO would still be an OK trait if its ONLY benefit was free Drill I. But I am a little bit crazy .

It's just a simple fact - at least on immortal. Your archers cannot defend your flat land outside of cities in a cost-effective way. An archer, fortified on flat land, is not going to be able to reliably defeat axes and swords even at a 1:1 ratio, (though on immortal the barbarians come in pairs or trios, in which case you need mobile defense, which archers are the worst of all at). A single axeman fortified can handle any single unit coming as the barbarians don't use chariots.

Why would you fortify an archer on a flat tile? If your best use of a PRO archer is fortifying it on a flat tile, then you are demonstrating a huge lack of understanding of simple combat mechanics. Or possibly you are posting a very very biased example, to further your argument.

I think castles are the only building on the tech screen where I can see it enabled and crossed out on the same screen in the science advisor. Do I build them? Yeah. Do I build them everywhere? No. And econ + corporation are going to be superior unless you're doing EE.

That's why you go EE. It's the strongest economy anyway from about the time you can build castles. If you choose not to go EE, it's true castles lose a bit of their utility, but then... castles, as I keep saying over and over, are not the main strength of PRO. The strength is in the promotions! CG promotions are used in forts, and drill I opens up access to Drill IV in typically 1 or 2 VERY SAFE battles. If you must fight your battles at 99% odds or greater, it might take 3 battles.

I'm sure there are situations in which any trait or aspect of the game, even protective, can outdo others. But in most situations, it is the weakest. Not worthless, just overall the weakest.

If the game is decided before longbows or crossbows can be built, I will admit PRO is near useless. But if you can decide the game that early you must be very good anyway. There is nothing that rivals Drill IV longbows and crossbows. You might say horse units can but that would only be if you didn't have pikes or spears (very bad strategy if you don't have these).

In considering the trait by itself, however, PRO just loses. It's not a question of human handicap, it's that the optimal way to use units in the early goings ruins the benefits of PRO.

True, in the VERY early goings. For the rest of the game, PRO has greater use. And most people, I would imagine, do not win games before longbows are around.

It is literally IMPOSSIBLE to prevent war with pure power at higher difficulties, so diplo will often negate the need for defense.

So you don't need defense?

When you DO have to defend yourself, you don't want to get pillaged, which again steers you away from PRO.

:yawn: Here we go again. Why do you even raise this point? It's been pointed out many times in this thread, by several posters, that PRO leaders CAN build anti-pillagers. You are going back to assumptions again, that just because a PRO player has stronger longbows, he would sit in his city and hope he gets attacked. You're basically insulting every player who might sometimes pick a PRO leader. Picking a PRO leader doesn't suddenly turn you into a wussy hide-behind-walls coward.

While useful for gunpowder, it's rare the trait does anything at all for the human before then. That's a long time with dead weight.

Actually longbows and crossbows are a time when PRO is very strong. This is a long time before the real gunpowder era.

You're killing yourself here. What does it matter if you have walls and better defenders, if you are STILL MAKING OTHER UNITS TO COUNTER PILLAGERS?

First, you don't need to build walls. Fewer defenders needed means you can build more anti pillagers. A Drill IV CG1 longbow in a city is pretty much unkillable. A CG2 longbow on the other hand, is strong, but will usually get injured quickly and it would be safer to have two of them.

Once the AI (or anyone) has siege sitting in the city is the weaker move. You want to be ATTACKING the offending stack, because collateral is set to make that more effective in civ IV.

Can't PRO players build siege?

Basically, if you have counter-attack units, you don't need better city defenses, you need better counter-attack units. PRO only helps marginally, when you have no strategic resources at all and you get declared on. In this rare scenario, you're still quite far back, because your archers won't do anything to stop the AI assault.

Archers are not the main strength of PRO. Despite your opinion, PRO helps in situations other than having no strategic resources and getting declare on. As I have said many times, Drill IV can be used on the offense as well, quite effectively in fact.

Once you have catapults (which again PRO does nothing to aid), you have all the defense you need. The archers, longbows, or whatever that cleans up after them barely matters.

PRO does nothing to aid catapults, but neither does any trait. After the catapults, Drill IV longbows or crossbows are actually the best to clean up, because they rack up more xp (2 or 3 times as much, is often the case). That means faster great generals (almost as good, possibly even better than that part of the IMP trait).

However, I must admit something like Toku of mali would be kind of fun . 4 str, 2-3 first strike units with access to cover thanks to a cheap barracks . Talk about a normally bad leader suddenly turning ridiculous.

1-3 first strikes actually, but I agree with your point. That would be a funny combination.

You're still missing the point. The cheap walls and better defenders mean that you save hammers on city defenses. Fewer archers/longbows means more hammers for counter attacking troops. Cheaper walls mean more hammers for counter attacking troops.

Can I just add to that, you don't even need to build the walls. The walls can realistically still be avoided until you see the enemy stack coming. Your city defenders are still better, so you point is still valid - you need fewer defenders and so can build more of other units.

You know what's even cheaper than cheap walls? NO WALLS AT ALL! And you know how you do that? Axeman! Instead of building archers and walls, build axeman! (chariots also work). You don't need to defend a city if they can't even get to it. Then after you've slaughtered their invading forces, you march in and conquer them.

You know what beats axemen? Crossbows! If an early war with axemen is all you need to win the game, then you should either move up a difficulty, or start using the Agg AI setting.

By the way, for those who don't know, the whole point of Agg AI was meant to make the game fairer for human players who use early rush. The AI already cuts us slack because it never rushes us. So if you are rushing, on non-Agg AI setting, you're basically unfairly taking advantage of game settings. Actually, I'm going to start making this point a lot more often now, because I'm starting to get the impression all these people who love "optimal play" are axe rushing neighbours in non-Agg AI - grossly unfair!

If you have bronze, I'd rather have axemen than cg2/d1 archers. In that case, protective is mostly useful for one pop whipping walls.

Archers with one promo are not the strength of PRO. PRO longbows with two promos (either get Theocracy or Vasslage) earn Drill IV pretty much instantly. That is one of the units where PRO starts to show a strength.

It's the worst trait in the game. CG is very marginally useful in most situations, drill is also inferior in most cases unless you can get drill 4 right off the production lines.

Not saying it's bad though, it has its uses, just not as many as every other trait.

Finally someone who knows the power of Drill IV. Because of the way xp is earned in combat, even Drill III units typically get Drill IV after one or two easy fights (80 or 90% odds or greater).

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

So, MOST of your argument is based on getting Drill IV. You yourself say to "ignore walls and castles." Okay...but other traits are giving me faster barracks, faster libraries, faster Unis...so Protective is already behind other traits from the get-go based on your own post. Then, we aren't too concerned with CG, since everyone seems to agree you really don't wanna be defending in your own cities if you can help it. Yes, they help in forts, but who the hell wants to build forts in the BFC if it's not a canal?

So, back to Drill IV. Yes, a good promo, no doubt. But I can get there pretty easily without protective...I get 2 promos outta the gate with barracks/theo or vassalage...I'm only 2 promos away already. So the point is, protective isn't necessarily BAD, but the other traits are pretty much all more beneficial.

I just can't see saying a trait is strong because it gives me a niche unit promo...Charismatic could probably get me there almost as quick, and with multiple benefits (happiness, ALL units getting promo'd faster, etc.)

 

[PieceOfMind]

So, MOST of your argument is based on getting Drill IV. You yourself say to "ignore walls and castles." Okay...but other traits are giving me faster barracks, faster libraries, faster Unis...so Protective is already behind other traits from the get-go based on your own post. Then, we aren't too concerned with CG, since everyone seems to agree you really don't wanna be defending in your own cities if you can help it. Yes, they help in forts, but who the hell wants to build forts in the BFC if it's not a canal?

So, back to Drill IV. Yes, a good promo, no doubt. But I can get there pretty easily without protective...I get 2 promos outta the gate with barracks/theo or vassalage...I'm only 2 promos away already. So the point is, protective isn't necessarily BAD, but the other traits are pretty much all more beneficial.

I just can't see saying a trait is strong because it gives me a niche unit promo...Charismatic could probably get me there almost as quick, and with multiple benefits (happiness, ALL units getting promo'd faster, etc.)

Not really. Drill IV comes at 10xp for PRO leaders, which is very easy to get - that's my point.

I argue that the drill promotion line is pretty much not useful if you are not PRO, since it takes 17xp to get to Drill IV (the target promo which makes the drill line worthwhile). Unfortunately, Drill II and III are not the best promotions in the world either, so it's all about getting to Drill IV asap - a lot easier to do when you are only 5xp away and have Drill III, than being 12xp away and only having Drill II. Do you see what I mean?

Personally, I can fit walls and castles, and even CG promotions into my strategy, but these are not the only things that can be utilised.

If you don't use forts, and don't need to defend cities, then CG is I agree, useless. But if you can be a bit more creative, and use forts in strategic locations (far more important in MP games IMO), then the CG promotions really shine. CG are sort of better in forts than cities anyway, because the 25% fort bonus cannot be bombarded. You can position forts near the path the enemy stack will take, and possibly cause it to take a much more exposed route, or have an easier time taking it down.

All I wanted to ask is that people forget the walls and castles for a moment. Obviously they still help the trait, but judging it soley on those benefits, is IMO an unfair way to judge the trait, and most people seem to do that (unless for some strange reason they avoid comment on the drill IV promotion).

By the way, I agree CHA is the best trait. I don't pretend PRO is the best trait in the game. It's just my favourite, and IMO it's strong. I just disagree with the general consensus that it is a weak trait, or the weakest trait. IMO AGG is an obviously weaker trait.

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

I think we are almost at a point where we need separate forums for MP and SP, because they are literally 2 different games. I totally agree that in MP, I value Pro ALOT. It might even be my favorite trait, but if I'm playing SP, it IS weaker than all of the other traits (that's not saying it's bad, just weaker, as in less benefits overall.)

 

[Wodan]

One problem that I do have with the PRO trait is that the only thing that I really look forward to using when I'm playing a PRO leader is the free Drill I.

If you gave me a choice between the PRO trait and a different trait that gave free Drill I to all archery and gunpowder unit, plus it gave only ONE other small bonus (like, cheaper security bureaus), I'd choose the latter trait in a heartbeat. The cheap walls, castles, and CG promotions are basically irrelevant (the CG less so, but still....).

PRO just needs to add a discount to some buildings that are more than niche-useful and that don't obsolete, such as security bureaus and bunkers. And Drill I needs a slight boost. Problem solved! All of the sudden, PRO becomes a trait with something fun to offer throughout the whole game (instead of basically going obsolete after the medieval era), and something that doesn't only work with a very niche sort of playstyle. Because, after all, pretty much everyone's going to build security bureaus (just like courthouses) eventually, right?

What you're basically saying is that PRO needs to support the game style that you play, rather than that you are willing to diversify and use a different game style to take full advantge of PRO?

you really don't wanna be defending in your own cities if you can help it.

You can't always help it.

Yes, they help in forts, but who the hell wants to build forts in the BFC if it's not a canal?

And, you can buid forts outside the BFC.

I don't think anybody thinks CG is the best thing since sliced bread. BUT it does help occasionally.

PRO isn't one big bonus like FIN or something. It's a bunch of little bonuses.

I agree with PoM and others who say Drill promotions are awesome. People ignore the immunity to collateral, which is huge in BtS. And, first strike helps when you're attacking just as much as when you're defending.

 

[Bandobras Took]

PRO isn't one big bonus like FIN or something. It's a bunch of little bonuses.

Best summary so far.

 

[PieceOfMind]

For PRO leaders,

Walls cost 37.5 - the same cost as 1 archer.

With stone, walls cost 2/3 the price of 1 archer.

Castles cost 75, 50 with stone.

The total cost of a wall and castle is 112.5. With stone, the total cost is 75.

A library costs 135

A castle gives +25% , +1 trade route, +1 and the normal defensive bonuses. A library gives +25% and +2.

Running an espionage economy, you can avoid Economics for a long time. You will only need it when you want Assembly Line, which requires Corporation, which requires Economics. You won't be able to run Free Market, which sucks, but instead you can use Mercantilism and make that free specialist a spy (you have built those all important courthouses haven't you?).

Once you turn on the esp economy, you won't even need the libraries, so they might even have a similar lifespan to the castles! You don't need observatories or universities either.

Another interesting comparison...

Jails cost 180, provide +4, +50% and -50% war weariness.
Universities cost 300, provide +25% and +3.

 

[Airefuego]

When you attach a GG to a Drill IV unit and use it for attacking, it racks up xp so fast it's not even funny. The GG Drill IV unit can reguarly take 6xp from 96% odds, and these go towards the next GG. In fact, the 96% for 6xp is a full health unit. When you attack injured units, you actually earn even more xp for the same odds.

Can you explain all this for me? What is it about Drill IV that makes you earn XP faster than normal?

thanks

 

[Bandobras Took]

I don't know, but my hunch is that XP is based on relative strength; since Drill doesn't actually improve combat strength but helps you win, the XP would be greater?

 

[PieceOfMind]

Can you explain all this for me? What is it about Drill IV that makes you earn XP faster than normal?

thanks

I'm glad you asked!

Bandobras Took already gave the simple answer, and he is right.

For an explanation of how much xp you earn from battle, see the first post in this thread.

Basically, the xp earned depends on the relative strenths of the two units, factoring in the health of each unit, and all defensive bonuses, promotions and other situational modifiers.

The one thing however, which does not factor in is first strikes.

Also, attacking is worth twice as much xp as defending. If you ever put two equal strength units on flat ground against each other (with no first stikes), each will have 50% odds of winning the battle, but the attacker would earn 4xp if he wins, while the defender would earn only 2xp if he won.

Consider a unit which can get Drill IV. Let's say a longbow. A longbow starts with 1 free first strike, and when he obtains Drill IV, that gives him another 3 guaranteed first strikes and 3 first strike chances.

It brings him to a total of 4-7 first strikes.

Now let's look at a real example.

Suppose we have a defender unit which has no first strikes and full health. Suppose we have two attackers to choose from; One of the attackers is a unit without first strikes (it might be a CR3 maceman for example), the other has 4-7 first strikes (maybe a drill IV longbow or crossbow).

For the unit with no first strikes, these are the ranges of battle odds which would yield, 3xp, 2xp and 1xp respectively.

3xp (50%,78.21%]
2xp (78.21%, 99.12%]
1xp (99.12%, 100%]

For the unit with 4-7 first strikes, the odds that would yield the same xp are:

3xp (83.64%,96.02%]
2xp (96.02%, 99.96%]
1xp (99.96%, 100%]

(lower than 83.64% odds would yield 4xp or more, if you're daring to fight at odds that low!)

As you can see in this example, the Drill IV unit can fight battles at just under 96% odds and take away 3xp. These battles are fairly reasonable to consider as safe. The maceman on the other hand, would need to fight at oods below 78% to expect to earn 3xp.

Now, when the defending unit is injured, these odds can skew even further, making it even easier for the Drill IV unit to take 3xp. But the way it skews can be a bit hard to predict because it depends on "jump points", which I probably should not discuss here.

Also, it might look like the CR3 unit will take away 2xp fairly regularly. However, the reality often is that the CR3 and other promos can put the unit's strength up so much higher he will only take 1xp. This might be considered acceptable because he is also guaranteed a win. But the Drill IV unit can have a very safe fight at 96% odds and take 3xp. That unit could earn xp three times as fast, opening up new promotions much easier than the CR3 unit does, and earning great general points faster than the CR3 units. Finally, after all that attacking, the Drill IV unit is a great multi-purpose unit! It is still perfect for the job of defending cities if necessary. The CR3 unit on the other hand is not going to be useful when not taking cities. But the really cool thing about the Drill IV unit, is that because this unit now has all those first strikes, when it does now start taking promotions which affects its strength etc., it still enjoys that easy xp earning!

EDIT
One thing you must remember is that Drill is all about Drill IV! The Drill IV promotion is almost worth the same as Drill I, II and III all combined. That is why playing as a non-PRO leader makes using the drill line more difficult - for them it's a lot more difficult to get to Drill IV.

 

[Airefuego]

Ok got it - thanks for that