Protective Trait-- Underrated?

[noto2]

Okay I never really thought about unit cost. So archery units are always cheaper than the other ones? That's something I'll keep in mind. I'll also keep in mind PRO allows you to get shock with archery units right off the bat. So I learned something. I think city garrison and staying in cities to defend them from attack is a limited strategy. Often I find epic wars where the AI invades me are won on the field by blasting them with seige, etc. I'm not sure if I'll ever like the PRO trait, but to be honest I don't dislike it as much as I used to. It's fine on a leader like Wang because it actually suits him. I don't really like it as much on someone like Toku or Gilgamesh, though. Wang has the strong financial trait combined with the seowon for some great beaker production. Actually the Chinese benefit from it a lot too with their UU. How do you leverage it as Charlamagne, though, or Gilgamesh? Never quite figured that out.

 

[Airefuego]

Wang has the strong financial trait combined with the seowon for some great beaker production. Actually the Chinese benefit from it a lot too with their UU. How do you leverage it as Charlamagne, though, or Gilgamesh? Never quite figured that out.

Gilga = awesome.

Gilga is strong because he has early, cheap courthouses (ziggurat) - a bit like having Org Lite as well as Cre and Pro. You also get an early espionage advantage as you get them so much earlier than your opponents. Combined with the cheap castles this makes Gilga a very good espionage guy.

He also has a good stong early UU - effectively it's an early, cheap swordsman with a melee bonus instead of a city attack bonus.

One way of leveraging Gilga:

- REX early using CRE border pops and Ziggurats. Use vultures to eliminate a neighbour if necessary.
- Then turtle, put up cheap walls and castles and build up espionage points. If you have to defend yourself actively, use drill crossbows.
- Ignore liberalism etc, beeline to rifles and CHARGE. Attack the world with drill 3 or 4 rifles, trebs and mass Spy Revolts in enemy cities to get their defences down.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Charlemagne is a strong rexer as well. He starts with hunting, so you can grab a lot of land with Archers and fast Settlers, then use the bonus from his UB to catch up your economy.

 

[CivCorpse]

Okay I never really thought about unit cost. So archery units are always cheaper than the other ones? That's something I'll keep in mind. I'll also keep in mind PRO allows you to get shock with archery units right off the bat. So I learned something. I think city garrison and staying in cities to defend them from attack is a limited strategy. Often I find epic wars where the AI invades me are won on the field by blasting them with seige, etc. I'm not sure if I'll ever like the PRO trait, but to be honest I don't dislike it as much as I used to. It's fine on a leader like Wang because it actually suits him. I don't really like it as much on someone like Toku or Gilgamesh, though. Wang has the strong financial trait combined with the seowon for some great beaker production. Actually the Chinese benefit from it a lot too with their UU. How do you leverage it as Charlamagne, though, or Gilgamesh? Never quite figured that out.

Gilgamesh may not have the best trait combo, since pro is fairly weak. But Sumeria is one of the stronger Civs IMHO. They srat with the two most expensive techs Agriculture and the Wheel. The UB is cheaper than a regular courthouse and is available much earlier. Giving you a boost in early espionage. And the UU is very good for rushing. Can you imagine how overpowered Gilgamesh would be with another strong trait? He might as well be Roman. Most Protective leaders have a strong UU and UB. While some of the better trait combos have less than stellar UU/UB's. And of course there are Romans. Strong traits, strong UU strong UB.

With Charlemagne, REX hard then use wall whipiing with chopping to stay solvent. That in addition to a cheaper garrison helps you get that one extra city. Tech hard towards CoL for Rathaus' then ftw with landsheckts. Pro is tough to leverage. It is more about the little things adding up. Gold from walls, fewer tougher units to garrison newly captured cities means more hammers for defensive troops, increased espionage from cheap castles. A little here and a little there adds up. Not the strongest trait, and arguably the weakest. But not totally worthless.

 

[CivCorpse]

Gilga = awesome.

Gilga is strong because he has early, cheap courthouses (ziggurat) - a bit like having Org Lite as well as Cre and Pro. You also get an early espionage advantage as you get them so much earlier than your opponents. Combined with the cheap castles this makes Gilga a very good espionage guy.

He also has a good stong early UU - effectively it's an early, cheap swordsman with a melee bonus instead of a city attack bonus.

One way of leveraging Gilga:

- REX early using CRE border pops and Ziggurats. Use vultures to eliminate a neighbour if necessary.
- Then turtle, put up cheap walls and castles and build up espionage points. If you have to defend yourself actively, use drill crossbows.
- Ignore liberalism etc, beeline to rifles and CHARGE. Attack the world with drill 3 or 4 rifles, trebs and mass Spy Revolts in enemy cities to get their defences down.

I agree but i use the espionage to steal techs while I beeline to cannons. Early cannons beat everything. CG3D1Muskets are tough to dislodge as well.

 

[CivCorpse]

Just because you can doesn't mean it's a good idea, let alone whether it's cheaper, among other considerations.

IMO combined arms are best.

I definately agree. That game was just used to demonstrate just how devastating siege can be. Now combine that with a well balanced army and to be honest, you don't need agg OR protective.

 

[Wodan]

I definately agree. That game was just used to demonstrate just how devastating siege can be. Now combine that with a well balanced army and to be honest, you don't need agg OR protective.

"Got to need it, hunh? Don't know as I need any trait." He gave a snort of laughter. "You need things when you're young. When you're my age, you've learned how to plan."

(Bad paraphrase from Dragonsinger.)

 

[noto2]

Hmm...I just finished a game as Boudica and am about to start a new one. Maybe I'll give Sumeria a try. I can run spy specialists early with his UB and get scotland yards/great spies fairly early, which means I could focus more on hammer production and steal techs with espionage. Cheap walls and castles would be good too... even more spy points.

 

[CivCorpse]

Hmm...I just finished a game as Boudica and am about to start a new one. Maybe I'll give Sumeria a try. I can run spy specialists early with his UB and get scotland yards/great spies fairly early, which means I could focus more on hammer production and steal techs with espionage. Cheap walls and castles would be good too... even more spy points.

Using them to infiltrate is usually better than Settling/Scotland Yard. Settling then Scotland Yard is good when you have two or more AI pursuing different tech paths. usually when there are multiple religions to hinder the trade fest. Infiltrate when there is a dominant tech leader.

Snagging the Mids for early Rep can change that of course.

 

[Airefuego]

Infiltration i would guess suit players who want to steal techs etc with 'active' espionage.

I prefer "defensive" / "passive" espionage ie. having city vis, blocking enemy espionage attempts, etc, while concentrating on other things. So settling / SYard is my preferred option.

Once I am ready to finish off another civ i just burn my long-stored Eps by revolting his cities.

 

[PreLynMax]

Thats why I boosted this trait on every mod I play (I no longer play Vanilla BTS, see post #289 and #293) to give a espionage boost to Protective civs.

BTW: Gilgamesh (Cre/Pro) dosn't give you a quadruple Courthouse build speed because of his traits, only Pro/Org leaders build Courthouses at quad speed, and so far there are none.
Honestly, I got the idea from the posters of this very thread.

in general is just too easy to abuse to begin with. You can get more techs from a single espionage infiltration than you can from bulbing and trading.

Gilgamesh may not have the best trait combo, since pro is fairly weak...

I have yet to win a single game with an AGG leader. And yes I love to spam spys and give my targets all sorts of hell. With enough EP's, I can do whatever I want. With that, I have the advantage dispite of what you warmongers think of the trair. Just run your crippled troops back to your homelands with your tails between your legs when you come across my impenetrable cities and you'll think twice about underestimating my military strategy.

I usually manage to clock 100k DEFENSIVE games because I dont needlessly sacrifice my troops on useless attempts to attack my opponent.

Often you would think staying in cities and defending them is a noob strategy, but then so is the latter strategy. You must have a balance, and in the end my sliders will remin high with lots of cheaper units than overpriced, overrated units. Pre-gunpower, I usually use them to fend off barbarians anyway.

 

[Munch]

Thats why I boosted this trait on every mod I play (I no longer play Vanilla BTS, see post #289 and #293) to give a espionage boost to Protective civs.

I have yet to win a single game with an AGG leader. And yes I love to spam spys and give my targets all sorts of hell. With enough EP's, I can do whatever I want. With that, I have the advantage dispite of what you warmongers think of the trair. Just run your crippled troops back to your homelands with your tails between your legs when you come across my impenetrable cities and you'll think twice about underestimating my military strategy.

I usually manage to clock 100k DEFENSIVE games because I dont needlessly sacrifice my troops on useless attempts to attack my opponent.

Often you would think staying in cities and defending them is a noob strategy, but then so is the latter strategy. You must have a balance, and in the end my sliders will remin high with lots of cheaper units than overpriced, overrated units. Pre-gunpower, I usually use them to fend off barbarians anyway.

You appear to be boasting about your successes while running your modded PRO trait, which in post #293 you clarified gave you +100% espionage, in addition to your cheap extra buildings and improved walls/castle. +100% espionage is not a small thing, and I wouldn't be surprised if giving yourself +100% espionage is the reason why you're winning so decisively; it's a huge bonus, and I'm probably not the only one who thinks that's totally overpowered. I imagine I could win any game handily if I had +100% espionage, just direct most of it at one AI and give them hell until they're no longer a threat, and then move on.

 

[Joshua368]

Something like 2 for walls sounds more ballanced to me.

What if financial gave you a +100% research or wealth bonus?

 

[UWHabs]

I'd think even giving +25% espionage would be enough to almost balance it out with some of the other mid-tier ones, if you throw in cheap jails as well. +100% would easily bring it in line with other top tier traits.

 

[CivCorpse]

I think he meant +100 base EP's to start. Otherwise it is way over-powered. Walls getting +2 is pretty weak in an EE.

 

[Wodan]

The problem with all the espionage ideas is that espionage is currently balanced when used as a main strategy, but weak when used as a secondary strat. What I mean by that is if you play a so-called "espionage economy", especially when combined with somewhat of a normal economy (probably SE of some sort), it is currently very powerful and strong. However, if you're playing more of a typical game, then espionage is kind of weak and probably not worth your while.

So if across-the-board bonuses are added then yes it might make espionage a little more attractive in a typical game, but it will make it hugely overbalanced in a EE game.

If the goal here is to "fix" Protective, I don't think that's the best way to do it. If the goal is to "fix" espionage, likewise, I don't think that's the best way. Regardless, trying to "fix" two perceived-as-weak strats (espionage and PRO) by welding them together at the hip is probably not a good idea.

Don't mean to come off as negative. These ideas are kind of interesting. (I just think the resulting gameplay isn't balanced.)

 

[z0wb13]

Protective Trait-- Underrated?

n0.

 

[CivCorpse]

I do not play diety. I lose horribly when i try and am forced to sit in a corner and weep. So I am surmising. conjecturing and sorta guessing at this. I know on emp difficulty an early infiltration nets 3000 on normal speed. 9000 on Marathon. You can usuely steal 4-5 GOOD techs with that.
That being said, I usually build a strong economy seperate from any EE. I do not adjust the slider. I do not run spies everywhere unless I am in merc. I just play my game. Having built the GW ( I am addicted like a crackhead) there is a strong chance that I will get a Great Spy fairly early. If i do then I infiltrate. If not I still have my regular economy.
Even with AI bonuses at high levels, 300, 4500 or 9000 in one lump is pretty powerful.

 

[PreLynMax]

I do not play diety. I lose horribly when i try and am forced to sit in a corner and weep. So I am surmising. conjecturing and sorta guessing at this. I know on emp difficulty an early infiltration nets 3000 on normal speed. 9000 on Marathon. You can usuely steal 4-5 GOOD techs with that.
That being said, I usually build a strong economy seperate from any EE. I do not adjust the slider. I do not run spies everywhere unless I am in merc. I just play my game. Having built the GW ( I am addicted like a crackhead) there is a strong chance that I will get a Great Spy fairly early. If i do then I infiltrate. If not I still have my regular economy.
Even with AI bonuses at high levels, 300, 4500 or 9000 in one lump is pretty powerful.

I tried that and failed.
I even tried Aggressive and winning the game on Domination and I'm yet to win a single game beyond Noble (except by using a "noob" small map size).
I have, however ran a EE ecomony and managed to win about a quarter of my games beyond Prince.
Somehow, I'm doing something right.
My goal was not to make Protective overpowered, but to make it a top tier trait as Aggressive is, and to counter it with Agressive. I'm afraid, by fixing the Protective trait (or at least make it more interesting), my decision stands on the change.

BTW: I have been playing Pro since Civ4 vanilla. I've been beating the game the say way ever since. My "boost" as you put it has very little weight on the game itself.

Therefore, by you combating my strategy and the way I think while playing Civ4 (and the fact that I'm always a peacemonger) proves that "boosting" Protective was the right thing to do.

 

[Joshua368]

BTW: I have been playing Pro since Civ4 vanilla. I've been beating the game the say way ever since. My "boost" as you put it has very little weight on the game itself.

How were you playing protective in vanilla?