Protective, truly underrated

[Fleme]

Well, I'd like to be proven wrong and to see a game where you actually manually research Machinery pre-BC. Seems like you're on here all the time so how about getting that game started? Get someone to generate a map for you and post in segments of some 50 turns maybe?

 

[Caboose]

Hey, easy now. I've been on here a lot lately, yes, because I started this discussion.

Maybe. But this is not what I want to prove. And frankly, I'm surprised if no one has "showcased" protective before me. I know there have been supporters of it before who have played this game a lot more than me.

EDIT: You say "pre-BC". No, I haven't achieved that. In my last game I researched Machinery manually in 175 AD, but let me tell you - Sitting Bull was not ready for it, and it's all about denying them horse. I'm playing this game now by the way, and Elizabeth is my next victim - although I double-teamed her with Hannibal, she wasn't ready for it either.

 

[Arilian]

I love it. I almost always play Fin/Pro this days.

I play custom games / deity - no tech trading / advanced start ( to start with 2-3 city, no bonus tech) and most importantly aggressive AI and raging barbs.

Not long ago was backstabbed by Zara Yacob with 164 units. 20 catapult, about 30-30-30-30 spear, axe, sword, chariot, some horseman and a very few modern unit. (longbows i think)

I managed to pull 12 longbow, 3 of them heroes with drill 4 / city def 3 and the heroes had hill defense 2 and one of them 2 combat.

I won the siege with no losses.

The tactic it requires to play protective my style is -

1. go cottage eco.
2. create border cities on hills, if i can later i build fortresses on forested hills.
3. get exp on barbs and provoke wars earliest possible with as many civ as you can but not all and do not attack so after peace the modifiers are not horrible.
4. get a few archer hero early they can be godlike very soon, and they will be helped by elite defenders in case you are unlucky.

If the score leader waging war against you it hurt his economy and more importantly he does not build helpful city improvements. It hurts you only a little (pillaged border city fields)

It seems that in deity it is actually better if a strong enemy attack me, than if it attacks a weak one. I can defend easily - but he will conquer some cities from the AI.

 

[DampRain]

@Arilian
That sounds wonderfully fun .

@Caboose
If JFleme hasn't made it clear, some people have already tried to do innovative(ie. abuse it as much as possible) play with protective, and the one thing they came out with is no longer in the game. Like he said, prove your point by playing games and reporting.

For discussion:
Difficulty, playstyle and player skill matter alot with regard to the effectiveness of PRO. The thing is, when players on higher difficulties talk about something, generally it is more applicable backwards (clear exceptions on some things), and they also know how things work backwards. However, the opposite isn't true :\. I'm not saying everything below deity/IMM should be disregarded, but rather some things that work below that sound ridiculous above, so you can understand the... apprehension to some ideas.

That being said, I restate my original position of:
Protective isn't useless, but it is the bottom or very near there :\. Which is definiely an improvement on useless. Furthermore only way to compare protective being underrated, is by comparing with peoples perceptions of it >.>. And yes, I've been following the discussion, but the first 11 pages have been so rage inducing I didn't reply.

OT, I love RvB episodes .

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Reading through this thread and using it a lot, it occurred to me that there are two very different ways to rate traits:

1. On average, how often does the benefit of the trait improve your position in-game by actively helping you out?

2. On average, which trait gives you the most potential to come out with a W regardless of the situation?

Protective is sucktastic at 1 because it generally only helps for a handful of turns if it ever helps at all.

However, 5-6 wall archers abuses the AI pretty badly pre-catapults (post cats you need to double up), and once longbows are accessed it's stupid how many units can be killed by CG III garrison that I've tried it out. That charlemagne game the same 5-6 longbows killed like 25-30 units including siege (catapults rather than trebs, but still!). Those were *not* hill cities!

So what do you do with this trait? It sucks pretty badly excepting the few cases where diplo breaks down, where it offers a comically hammer-efficient anti-AI defense. I'm not sure how it fares in the MP meta-game. It's not an ideal thing to attack (city defenses are hard to break, and committing any heavy force to pillaging might be slower than just targeting someone softer), but it does tech more slowly.

So it flops badly at 1, but is probably a little above average at 2. Hmm.

But forgoing trade-able techs to self-research engineering is still idiotic with trades on.

 

[Caboose]

I think I'll summarize the advantages of Protective as I see it and be done with the theory:

• Archers and Gunpowder units start with Drill. This means you don't have to promote units with the sucky Drill I, and you get Drill IV (awesome) at 10 xp instead of 17. This is a big difference and makes Drill IV a LOT more common.
• Drill increases the amount of XP you gain at the same odds as compared to Combat/any other promotion. You can get 2 XP for fighting at above 99% odds for example. This means those Drill IV units won't take long to get. This also means faster Great Generals (mini-version of IMP), and faster Heroic Epic and West Point.
• Drill makes you more resistant to siege (up to 60% with Drill IV).
• Drill makes you survive when you're outnumbered but not "outgunned". In other words, when you get attacked, and you keep the strength advantage, your units can survive wave after wave, sometimes even without a scratch.
• Drill and Siege synergizes. When you attack with Siege, Drill units mop up the wounded defenders without taking much or any damage, while getting more XP than other units would get.
• Drill opens up the medic promotions just like Combat does, and gives you easier access to medics as well as a cheaper Super-Medic (you can split the XP from the GG up between 3 units and still get a Super-Medic from scratch).
• Notice how I talk about Drill. As someone already correctly pointed out, Drill (and particularly the much sooner access to Drill IV) is the biggest advantage of Protective.
• If you're playing as the Chinese, Cho-ko-nus fits the trait perfectly (act as both siege, attackers and defenders). And Drill synergizes perfectly with this unit.
• Other civs can also attack with Crossbowmen, or even Longbowmen, provided you bring along catapults (or later trebuchets). But the real strength if you're not playing as the Chinese comes in at Gunpowder, and more so at Rifling (as several have already pointed out).
• Protective is amazing with Drafting, just like Aggressive, only differently. And I dare claim that Protective beats Aggressive for Drafting, since at this point, siege weapons are very common, and Drill works better with siege than Combat. But also you get potent city defenders, which is sometimes a savior when you're drafting units.

And that's pretty much the highlights of Drill.

You're right - the cheap walls and castles, and the City Garrison promotion, are very situational, and doesn't need to be used extensively to use the trait well. You can however use castles in an Espionage Economy, but this isn't something you would do every game I think.

 

[Bandobras Took]

But at least we're now getting evidence rather than assertions -- the Charlemagne game is a prime example, as well as the AI tech choice post. I'm delighted to be proven wrong with evidence rather than aphorisms.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I would argue the city garrison is a bigger deal during the phase of the game that matters the most. Easy access to cheap units that a) can consistently beat swords pre-cats and b) pump longbows up to 85% vs melee means help when diplo breaks down. This is coverage. Usually if one has time to set up, you can win.

 

[Caboose]

Sure. In some cases, you may need to hold on to dear life inside a city like that. But as you and everybody else has pointed out, moving out of the city and beating those attackers is what's best. City Garrison is - situational. Maybe it's a bigger deal on Deity, I don't know (don't play Deity).

 

[DampRain]

That was a good summary. You've improved my opinion of protective (well drill really). Like TMIT pointed out though, the CG does matter substantially sometimes, but it'd be unfair to expect you to summarise something that doesn't happen to you :\.

 

[georgjorge]

I love it. I almost always play Fin/Pro this days.

I play custom games / deity - no tech trading / advanced start ( to start with 2-3 city, no bonus tech) and most importantly aggressive AI and raging barbs.

Not long ago was backstabbed by Zara Yacob with 164 units. 20 catapult, about 30-30-30-30 spear, axe, sword, chariot, some horseman and a very few modern unit. (longbows i think)

I managed to pull 12 longbow, 3 of them heroes with drill 4 / city def 3 and the heroes had hill defense 2 and one of them 2 combat.

I won the siege with no losses.

The tactic it requires to play protective my style is -

1. go cottage eco.
2. create border cities on hills, if i can later i build fortresses on forested hills.
3. get exp on barbs and provoke wars earliest possible with as many civ as you can but not all and do not attack so after peace the modifiers are not horrible.
4. get a few archer hero early they can be godlike very soon, and they will be helped by elite defenders in case you are unlucky.

If the score leader waging war against you it hurt his economy and more importantly he does not build helpful city improvements. It hurts you only a little (pillaged border city fields)

It seems that in deity it is actually better if a strong enemy attack me, than if it attacks a weak one. I can defend easily - but he will conquer some cities from the AI.

Sounds fun. Do you think such a strategy is possible with tech trading on as well? Also, do you go for Archery very soon?

 

[PieceOfMind]

I think I'll summarize the advantages of Protective as I see it and be done with the theory:

• Archers and Gunpowder units start with Drill. This means you don't have to promote units with the sucky Drill I, and you get Drill IV (awesome) at 10 xp instead of 17. This is a big difference and makes Drill IV a LOT more common.
• Drill increases the amount of XP you gain at the same odds as compared to Combat/any other promotion. You can get 2 XP for fighting at above 99% odds for example. This means those Drill IV units won't take long to get. This also means faster Great Generals (mini-version of IMP), and faster Heroic Epic and West Point.
• Drill makes you more resistant to siege (up to 60% with Drill IV).
• Drill makes you survive when you're outnumbered but not "outgunned". In other words, when you get attacked, and you keep the strength advantage, your units can survive wave after wave, sometimes even without a scratch.
• Drill and Siege synergizes. When you attack with Siege, Drill units mop up the wounded defenders without taking much or any damage, while getting more XP than other units would get.
• Drill opens up the medic promotions just like Combat does, and gives you easier access to medics as well as a cheaper Super-Medic (you can split the XP from the GG up between 3 units and still get a Super-Medic from scratch).
• Notice how I talk about Drill. As someone already correctly pointed out, Drill (and particularly the much sooner access to Drill IV) is the biggest advantage of Protective.
• If you're playing as the Chinese, Cho-ko-nus fits the trait perfectly (act as both siege, attackers and defenders). And Drill synergizes perfectly with this unit.
• Other civs can also attack with Crossbowmen, or even Longbowmen, provided you bring along catapults (or later trebuchets). But the real strength if you're not playing as the Chinese comes in at Gunpowder, and more so at Rifling (as several have already pointed out).
• Protective is amazing with Drafting, just like Aggressive, only differently. And I dare claim that Protective beats Aggressive for Drafting, since at this point, siege weapons are very common, and Drill works better with siege than Combat. But also you get potent city defenders, which is sometimes a savior when you're drafting units.

And that's pretty much the highlights of Drill.

You're right - the cheap walls and castles, and the City Garrison promotion, are very situational, and doesn't need to be used extensively to use the trait well. You can however use castles in an Espionage Economy, but this isn't something you would do every game I think.

A good summary of Drill. I must say the point about medic is a pretty minor one IMO, at least compared with the other points anyway.

To make the most of drill, it's a good idea to use a combat odds mod like my very own ACO (apologies for the sneaky ad ) so you can see how much XP you take from battle. In the past I've made the statement that when attacking with Drill troops it's a waste to get only 1xp. You can frequently take 2 or 3xp at very good odds (about 99 or 96% respectively, I forget the exact numbers) by picking the right attackers.

The downside is that it takes a lot more micro - something that understandably a lot of players have little interest in. Combat and CR promotions are good as fire and forget promotions. Drill takes more care and is hard to take advantage of if you're lazy with your combat tactics.

An example of how easy it is to get units to drill IV:
-Start some units (e.g. crossbows or longbows) with 5xp (barracks and a civic) and lead them to victory in two battles (one at 3xp and one at 2xp - fairly easy since you already have Drill 3).
Compare it with a CR2 unit which would take usually 5 battles to get to 10xp if you were fighting the same defenders. CR3 is still a very good promotion of course, just not as versatile as drill.
I forgot to mention but the example here assumes attacking the defenders after siege damage has already been dealt.

 

[azzaman333]

PRO is underrated, but it's still without doubt the worst trait.

 

[Caboose]

In fact, PieceOfMind's Advanced Combat Odds is what made me understand how the Drill promotion works in the first place. Being able to see how much XP you're gonna earn before the battle, and seeing the odds for surviving the battle unharmed, etc. is very useful. ACO is part of BTS Unaltered Gameplay (BUG), and I've been advertising that ever since I knew about it. (And the merged mod Better BUG AI in my signature, which is BUG and Better AI combined.)

 

[NihilZero]

Can somebody explain to me why Drill units get more XP?

 

[PieceOfMind]

Can somebody explain to me why Drill units get more XP?

Basically it's because first strikes increase a unit's chance of victory without changing the ratio of the strengths of the two units. Because the XP earned depends solely on the ratio of attacker/defender strength (with modifiers taken into account), by promoting with things like Combat or CR you might lower the amount of XP you'd get whereas with drill it never changes.

For example, two equal strength units facing off will have R=1.0. (I use R to denote the ratio in Advanced Combat Odds if you have some of the more advanced displays enabled).
The attacker would earn 4xp if he wins with 50% chance of success. If he promoted to drill 1, his odds go up to about 53 or 56%, I forget the exact number, but he would still earn 4xp. If he promoted to Combat 1, his odds would also go up but his potential xp would drop to 3xp.

 

[CornPlanter]

If it's the worst trait, and everybody says it's the worst trait, in what sense is it underrated? Sorry I don't know nuances of English, probably got something wrong

 

[oranje willem]

If it's the worst trait, and everybody says it's the worst trait, in what sense is it underrated? Sorry I don't know nuances of English, probably got something wrong

To quote my own reaction a lot of pages back

"Protective may be underrated in the sence that some people may think its utter crap, but its not underrated in the sence that people think it's the worst trait (and with that worse than AGG). "

 

[r_rolo1]

If it's the worst trait, and everybody says it's the worst trait, in what sense is it underrated? Sorry I don't know nuances of English, probably got something wrong

Even if it was the worst trait and everyone agreed it was the worst trait ( not sure of either ), it could still be underrated, because people could still think it was worse than it actually is

 

[Caboose]

For example, two equal strength units facing off will have R=1.0. (I use R to denote the ratio in Advanced Combat Odds if you have some of the more advanced displays enabled).
The attacker would earn 4xp if he wins with 50% chance of success. If he promoted to drill 1, his odds go up to about 53 or 56%, I forget the exact number, but he would still earn 4xp. If he promoted to Combat 1, his odds would also go up but his potential xp would drop to 3xp.

Of course, you know this, but this is not a good case to promote with Drill. If you can increase the strength ratio from 1 to above 1 (with Combat, for example), you increase your chances of victory more than if you add Drill. But if you've got the strength advantage, adding Drill II and up would be better.