Prove God Exists - Act Three

[FearlessLeader2]

King A,
Discussing this with you is a lot like smiting my genitals with a ball-peen hammer. I can't for the life of me explain why I'm doing it, except maybe that it feels so good when I stop.

Oh, yeah. That's goood. (BTW, that means I'm outta here.)

 

[King Alexander]

@FearlessLeader2: you don't think that my arguements are good enough? Many people have the same ideas with me, and many people share the same ideas with you. Why can't you accept that? Are you afraid from a philosophical discussion?

 

[Perfection]

In fact, I not only believe it, I find it at best slightly loony to countenance the idea the He is not real. It strikes me as more than a trifle insane that some people insist on pursuing the delusion that there is no God. I can no more accept the idea that all of this (Life, the Universe, and Everything) is a product of random chance than I can accept the idea that this life is all there is.

Randomness and simple rules can easily create complex dynamic systems. Mathematical research proven it with things like cellular automata and other iterative mathematical algorithms.

Why does everyone persist under the notion that they are going to live forever if death is a natural thing? Nobody I have ever heard of just crawled off to die like an animal when they got sick or injured. Everyone (barring suicides, who can arguably be listed as victims of depression and at the very end) struggles to cling to life until the very end. If man is an animal, why does he not act as an animal? If evolution is your answer, why have we no peers from other lines? Everything else on earth crawls off to die when the end is near, why not us?

Simple, animals crawl to a safe spot where they can recooperate. Humans do it too, the exception is the safe spot is with other humans. You will note that pack animals will usually go to thier pack when sick or injured. They all struggle to survive (well, not all like ones that die after mating, but that's different)

@erickcid, this is prove god exists not ramble on about your beliefs.

 

[Garbarsardar.jr]

Discussing this with you is a lot like smiting my genitals with a ball-peen hammer. I can't for the life of me explain why I'm doing it, except maybe that it feels so good when I stop.

Because God told you to? Since HIS existence explains everything else I mean...

 

[erickcid]

God's existence alone does not explain everything. This is why people have this whole big world and universe to research and understand. My point is simply It exists, and it is a creator. Whether you believe in God or not, there is no denying reality, interest, and science. They are better coexistant, rather than seperate.

 

[King Alexander]

God's existence alone does not explain everything. This is why people have this whole big world and universe to research and understand. My point is simply It exists, and it is a creator. Whether you believe in God or not, there is no denying reality, interest, and science. They are better coexistant, rather than seperate.

erickcid, I find your ideas very interesting; you're not like the average believer who can't accept anything else than the Bible fairy tales
I'm glad we exhange our theories.

 

[erickcid]

King Alexander: Thank you for your kind words. They were as a breath of fresh air.

Anytime you would like to discuss matters of philisophical interest, feel free to email me.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

@FearlessLeader2: you don't think that my arguements are good enough? Many people have the same ideas with me, and many people share the same ideas with you. Why can't you accept that? Are you afraid from a philosophical discussion?

The reason I am done talking to you is because you continually utilise the straw man defense against me. You take something I say, deliberately misinterpret it, and then proceed to attack that misinterpretation as if it is what I said.

I am not going to argue this with you, I don't really care what you have to say in your defense. You do it, you persist in doing it, and you are exceedingly good at doing it. I'm tired of having it done to me, so have fun doing it to everyone else.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Randomness and simple rules can easily create complex dynamic systems. Mathematical research proven it with things like cellular automata and other iterative mathematical algorithms.

So...who wrote the rules?

Simple, animals crawl to a safe spot where they can recooperate. Humans do it too, the exception is the safe spot is with other humans. You will note that pack animals will usually go to thier pack when sick or injured. They all struggle to survive (well, not all like ones that die after mating, but that's different)

Hah! Try again!! Wounded pack predators crawl off to die alone, wounded herd animals are left behind by the herd.

 

[Perfection]

Ok, if you sent your wife and kid out every morning to collect the mana that fell out of the sky to feed you every morning for forty years, what scientific explanation would you advance for that?

Until I see mana falling from the sky, I don't think I need to answer the question! Under my system of logic it would be of unknown origin until proven otherwise.

Agreed. But you DO understand that I find your non-belief just as whacky as you find my belief, right?

The acknowldegement that we don't know is less wacky than asserting god created it.

What human have you ever heard of (that was not suffering from severe depression) who just crawled off into a corner to die when they got sick or badly injured?

Actually they crawl to the corner because it's about the safest warmest spot and so it maximizes their ability to survive. When you need to heal you don't exercise do you, no, you crawl into bed!

Predators routinely tear other animals limb from limb and consume them, often while still kicking.

I've seen humans do that to catfish!

Herd animals abandon their elderly and sick.

In times of crisis humans have done so too! When grandma is about to be eaten by bears you wouldn't go up to them and fight them!

Hive insects fight wars of extermination against each other that make the Final Solution look like a walk in the park.

A little more severe, that's all!

Pack predators in action could be taped and shown as a perfect lesson in sadism and treachery.

Not really, they don't do it to create pain they want to kill it as fast as possible.

Parent predators training their young to hunt give the phrase 'playing with your food' a deeply disturbing meaning.

We'd do the same if we had to hunt things down with our teeth and nails.

So-called 'gentle' and 'almost-human' male great apes routinely establish pecking order in their troupes via rape, including homosexual rape.

You don't watch too many prison movies do you.

Tell me again how man, that pitiful and inadequate poseur, stacks up against REAL animals...

Oh, so I guess fluffy bunnies aren't REAL animals either are they? What about gophers, are gophers REAL animals? I don't see gophers doing any of those things so they aren't REAL animals either. Some animals more brutal then humans others are less brutal, the brutality of humans falls well within the bounds of animals!

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Because God told you to? Since HIS existence explains everything else I mean...

Fine, I'll feed ya.

I answer your troll with a challenge:

Quote me saying that God's existence explains 'everything else'.

'If' you can't do it, I expect a retraction at the minimum, and an apology would be nice as well.

 

[Perfection]

So...who wrote the rules?

Humans did, doesn't mean that god wrote our rules, there aren't just rules sitting around for us to use!

Hah! Try again!! Wounded pack predators crawl off to die alone.

You know, I may be wrong on this one. It occurs to me that there is an evolutionary advantage to dying alone, namely not leaving a big rotting corpse in their den, humans being bipedal can easily carry away the corpse. Either way it's explainable by evolution and provide no evidence against it.

wounded herd animals are left behind by the herd.

The animal tries to stay with the herd, but the herd leaves.

 

[Garbarsardar.jr]

I can no more accept the idea that all of this (Life, the Universe, and Everything) is a product of random chance than I can accept the idea that this life is all there is.

There's your answer

Discussing this with you is a lot like smiting my genitals with a ball-peen hammer

and there's your Troll
Enjoy...

 

[King Alexander]

The reason I am done talking to you is because you continually utilise the straw man defense against me. You take something I say, deliberately misinterpret it, and then proceed to attack that misinterpretation as if it is what I said.

I'm trying NOT to misinterpret your replies; I choose the general idea of your sayings and reply with my ideas.

If I think that I didn't understood something very well, I ask for a clarification, as I did with erickcid and other posters.

How can you say that I misinterpret your sayings, when you, also, reply to my ideas the same way? I find it more practical to answer to a specific part at a time, so posters know in which part I'm reffering to, rather to confuse them(and myself!).

I am not going to argue this with you, I don't really care what you have to say in your defense. You do it, you persist in doing it, and you are exceedingly good at doing it. I'm tired of having it done to me, so have fun doing it to everyone else.

Nobody forces you to care about my ideas.
As for having fun in doing so, believe me, it's not fun trying to reply with reasonable arguements to a hardcore believer(don't take the last sentence personal; after all, I'm not attacking you, if you think so. We only have an exchange of phylosophical ideas with reasonable arguements).

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Until I see mana falling from the sky, I don't think I need to answer the question! Under my system of logic it would be of unknown origin until proven otherwise.

Oh, no, I think you should answer the question. You and I are at the same observational point when manna falls from the sky. It fully supplies our daily nutritional requirements. Despite the best possible preservation techniques we have available, this manna rots and is consumed by worms, even in tightly sealed containers, just as the priests say it will every night. This happens on a daily basis for forty years as we wander through the wilderness following the path shown us by a pillar of smoke during the day, which transforms to a pillar of flame at night. To what do you attribute this event?

The acknowldegement that we don't know is less wacky than asserting god created it.

With no other factors to consider, I'd agree with you. But the Bible exists. As we have gone over in some detail in an older thread, the Bible book of Genesis, supposedly authored by a 'Palestinian goatherd' (Moses) managed to get every detail of Creation right that it recorded, even those that pre-dated man, and even life. Are we then, to assume that Moses, a 'Palestinian goatherd', managed to conjure up one lucky guess after another starting with the Big Bangs and ending with the arrival of man? Luck like that IS a miracle.

Actually they crawl to the corner because it's about the safest warmest spot and so it maximizes their ability to survive. When you need to heal you don't exercise do you, no, you crawl into bed!

Pack animals with non-mortal injuries lick each others' wounds. Pack animals with mortal injuries crawl off to die. Explain.

I've seen humans do that to catfish!

You've seen humans eat live catfish?

In times of crisis humans have done so too! When grandma is about to be eaten by bears you wouldn't go up to them and fight them!

As a matter of fact, yes I would.

A little more severe, that's all!

The only human ever to conduct a war of extermination against another group of humans, Adolf Hitler, is the most reviled human in history. His name is synonymous with evil. He is often referred to as 'inhuman', as if the traits he displayed were not those of a human. Seems to me like violence of that level is not a human thing.

Not really, they don't do it to create pain they want to kill it as fast as possible.

It can take a wolf pack hours to bring down a bear.

We'd do the same if we had to hunt things down with our teeth and nails.

Actually, martial artists learn to strike vital areas to incapacitate or kill instantly, without resorting to crippling a human and striking them to see where it hurts the most while they are unable to fight back.

You don't watch too many prison movies do you.

Oh, so I guess fluffy bunnies aren't REAL animals either are they? What about gophers, are gophers REAL animals? I don't see gophers doing any of those things so they aren't REAL animals either. Some animals more brutal then humans others are less brutal, the brutality of humans falls well within the bounds of animals!

So are pacifists and conscientious objectors real humans? What about Vegans? War protestors?

 

[CurtSibling]

CurtSibling is never wrong.

Your cheque is in the post, Perfection!

 

[FearlessLeader2]

There's your answer
Enjoy...

Have fun bashing that straw man.

'Everything else' implies that my answer for how a flashlight works or where babies come from is 'God did it.' It implies that I have no concept of science at any level, and am a primitive nomad, sacrificing goats to the Thunder God, and praying to Father Sky.

Find a quote that supports that. That is the challenge I made.

New rule: every time a strawman argument is used on me, the user gets one strike. Three strikes, and you're on my Ignore list.

 

[CurtSibling]

All: I just woke and have played catch-up on the posts. I do appreciate all the responses. It is tedious to go back and forth. Insult hurling does not help either, therefore my activity on this thread will be limited. There is a passage early in the Qu'ran that states "As for those who are bent upon denying (the truth), they would not believe, because it is all the same to them whether you warn them or do not warn them. (With the result that) Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and on their eyes is a covering." This type of thing is also shown in the Bible when God states to Moses that he will harden pharoah's heart causing his behavior to be as he willed.

nihilistic: Do not insult me.

You believe you are right in your believes.
We (non-believers) are of the same mind that there is no god.

So just announcing either party are the sole holder of 'truth' is no way to gain credibility.

There is no blinding 'truth'...Just proof.

And no-one from the religionist side have made an attempt to present it.
I reckon it is because of various reasons:

1. They are scared of ridicule.
2. They are unwilling to enter into the thought that they might be wrong.
3. They will have to confront their own ideology.
4. They might have to accept something more logical than the easy answer.

That's my tuppence....

I sneer at religionist attempts to seem superior and academic;
Especially whjen they are quoting from dubious sources, such as dogmatic books written by primitive men.

Those tactics won't go anywhere to winning this debate...If it really can be won anyway.

But it is a good thread so far, thanks to Perfection and all the combatants!

 

[JohnRM]

I can't believe you people aren't sick and tired of this, yet.

 

[Garbarsardar.jr]

The only human ever to conduct a war of extermination against another group of humans, Adolf Hitler, is the most reviled human in history. His name is synonymous with evil. He is often referred to as 'inhuman', as if the traits he displayed were not those of a human. Seems to me like violence of that level is not a human thing.

Stalin? The cultural revolution? Conquistadors?The Rwanda genocide?Ethnic cleansing in the Balkans?The Sudan genocide?The massacre in Nanjing?Saint Bartholomew's Day Massacre? Too many not human things, right?

AND FOR YOUR PLEASURE:
You gentlemen who think you have a mission
To purge us of the seven deadly sins
Should first sort out the basic food position
Then start your preaching, that’s where it begins

You lot who preach restraint and watch your waist as well
Should learn, for once, the way the world is run
However much you twist or whatever lies that you tell
Food is the first thing, morals follow on

So first make sure that those who are now starving
Get proper helpings when we all start carving
What keeps mankind alive?

What keeps mankind alive?
The fact that millions are daily tortured
Stifled, punished, silenced and oppressed
Mankind can keep alive thanks to its brilliance
In keeping its humanity repressed
And for once you must try not to shriek the facts
Mankind is kept alive by bestial acts