Prove God Exists - Act Three

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Perfection said:
So when religionists use illogical arguements, it's faith and so okay, but when we use illogical arguements it's not okay, I'm sensing a double standard here. :crazyeye:

*Notices other guy's avatar*

I guess you are here to protect your property. So you are a capitalist after all. :p

On topic: What makes our arguements illogical? Is it the fact that not everything is reasoned with in your style? Like I said before, you cannot disprove the divinty of God or any deity, using those arguements. Science doesn't and will never solve everything (yes, I know that is opinion but really we are all just forming opinions).
 
I'll answer them all, because I'm bored:

Faith and Its Problems - So what? Anyone can beleive whatever they want. And yes, if faith can justify God's existance, it can justify Thor's or the giant pink invisible unicorn. Only ignorant fundies disagree.

The Speed of Light - Only ignorant fundies think the universe is 6,000 years old, or whatever is given in the Bible.

The Fall, pt 1 (Why would God let them fall?) - Because, to live with free will, even with sin, is better than to live as an automaton.
Pt 2 - (Its not their fault, they didn't see the moral problems.) Its as simple as: Your mom says don't eat the cookie, you eat the cookie, you get smacked. Adam and Eve is just showing that disobeying God is wrong, and to disobey God is to cause your own downfall.

Rain and Mountains - The story of the Ark is symbolic. Nothing more, nothing less. Interestingly enough, its probably based in reality; there was a catastrophic flood near Turkey that buried almost all settlements. Its not too hard to imagine one guy loading his family and sheep on a boat and surviving it, and passing the story down.

The Pointlessness of Prayer - A sticky question, yes, but you can take a few views. God never intervenes, ever. He created the world, and let it be. Or, God intervenes some of the time, seemingly at random, and he intervenes through natural ways. In this view, you must trust that God is doing what is best; if Jimmy was to die of leukemia, that is because it would have been worse for him to live. (I personally don't like this, but some do.) Or, the third way: Everything is an act of God, everything a miracle.

Bible Quotes - Just remember that the Bible was written by two faiths, over centuries. That explains all disparities and contradictions.

Absurdities - Its symbolic, it was written before modern science, etc.

Creationism and Uniformitarianism - I don't know what the hell you're talking about, or trying to prove. However, I think its about the age of the earth, in which case - NEVER TAKE NUMBERS IN THE BIBLE LITERALLY. EVER.

Climate on the Ark, What Did Carnivores Eat? - Wow, you really won't let this Noah **** die, will you. Its symbolism..................................

Falsifiability - The Bible is not literal. For the last time.

The Ability to Predict - OK, apparently this passage is arguing against someone who thinks gravity didn't exist until Newton proved it. In which case, its so laughable a debate that I won't even enter.

Occam's Razor Thing: What is simplest is not true 100% of the time. Its a good way to make a theory, but not a way to prove a theory true. Anyway, science and creationism are not mutually exclusive.

Done!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lord Draegon, a few points of advice for next time you post in this thread:

1. Cite your sources, since its clear you didn't write all that.
2. Actually make sure anyone cares about what you are saying, and actually make sure anyone beleives the arguments you are "refuting".
3. Read the crap you're quoting.
 
Lord Draegon said:
Oh you people are exasperating, GOOD NIGHT!
What did you expect? Warm fuzzies from the atheists? Counter agruments from the fundamentalists? You came barreling in with rapid fire giant posts that left no time for anyone to read and digest before you dumped another load. This thread and its immediate predecessor total over 1700 posts from a dedicated group of spammers.

Have you read any of what has gone on before? We thrive on the give and take. Had you posted one selection and waited for replys, questions etc and let the sequence build, you would probably not feel so exasperated. Spammers that we are, lots of thought goes into many of the posts here. You are welcome to join us, but don't expect special treatment because you attack the weak and defenseless. Even they have their defenders.
 
Zarn said:
*Notices other guy's avatar*

I guess you are here to protect your property. So you are a capitalist after all. :p
Always have been! :thumbsup:

Zarn said:
On topic: What makes our arguements illogical? Is it the fact that not everything is reasoned with in your style? Like I said before, you cannot disprove the divinty of God or any deity, using those arguements. Science doesn't and will never solve everything (yes, I know that is opinion but really we are all just forming opinions).
Faith is inherently illogical, so arguements based upon them are illogical. Doesn't make 'em wrong, but it strikes me as having a low-proboility of being right. Of course it is all opninion, you're correct in that nothing can disprove god, he is by nature undisprovable and apparently unprovable, except by using illogical faith. So, my contention is ya really never know. For simplicity, I assume god doesn't exist. Does it make it right, not really. But, hey it works for me! My little jibe was just to poke fun and the absurd arguements on both sides.
 
Perfection said:
Always have been! :thumsup:

Faith is inherently illogical, so arguements based upon them are illogical. Doesn't make 'em wrong, but it strikes me as having a low-proboility of being right.
Faith is usually based on an experience that cannot be explained. The experience comes first, then the inability to explain it. I believe that most believers would say that they didn't have a choice. The experience overwhelmed their reason. Logic is irrelevant.
 
Birdjaguar said:
Faith is usually based on an experience that cannot be explained. The experience comes first, then the inability to explain it. I believe that most believers would say that they didn't have a choice. The experience overwhelmed their reason. Logic is irrelevant.


What experiences are there can can not be explained by the function of the central nervous system? (I have a bet with my wife as to your follow up question from this- don't let me down!)
 
Mrogreturns said:
What experiences are there can can not be explained by other than the function of the central nervous system? (I have a bet with my wife as to your follow up question from this- don't let me down!)
I was generalizing in response to perfection's linking of faith and illogical. I think he misunderstands faith.

A bet with your wife. What are the stakes? I'm not sure i have a follow up question...yet, but I do have a comment or two. All of our experiences can be traced to our central nervous systems/mind combo. They are all after the fact. Somewhere the nervous system gets a jingle that starts the process of experience. Experience has two key elements: The initiating event (internal or external) and the mind that interprets what the CNS delivers. this is not the question: Could meditating on Jeus, Krishna or Buddha produce a faith experience? What part does the mind play and who's in charge there? I will return to my quote from several pages ago:
"The distinction between reality and imagination exists only in the mind."
Perhaps our minds are the gate keepers here. And they might not all be the same. The walls the mind creates between reality and imagination may be more permeable in some people than others.

Ok. Here we go. Have you ever been in love?
Who won?;)
 
Birdjaguar said:
I was generalizing in response to perfection's linking of faith and illogical. I think he misunderstands faith.

A bet with your wife. What are the stakes? I'm not sure i have a follow up question...yet, but I do have a comment or two. All of our experiences can be traced to our central nervous systems/mind combo. They are all after the fact. Somewhere the nervous system gets a jingle that starts the process of experience. Experience has two key elements: The initiating event (internal or external) and the mind that interprets what the CNS delivers. this is not the question: Could meditating on Jeus, Krishna or Buddha produce a faith experience? What part does the mind play and who's in charge there? I will return to my quote from several pages ago:
"The distinction between reality and imagination exists only in the mind."
Perhaps our minds are the gate keepers here. And they might not all be the same. The walls the mind creates between reality and imagination may be more permeable in some people than others.

Ok. Here we go. Have you ever been in love?
Who won?;)

This is no time for Leo Sayer!

Well- now, you have made the point I thought you would- but have not phrased it as a question. I think I won, but the wife says no dice- so I will shortly be making a chocolate cake. Thank you so very very much ;)

I don't see how your comments give any wieght to the idea that the CNS can not explain any given experience. You can speculate that other factors might be at work, just as you could speculate that a god of flight lifts aircraft into the sky, but that doesn't mean that those specualtions are required to explain the experience. I used to have extremely vivid hypnogogic hallucinations, every night for about 20 years, is it really necessary to invoke anything other than my own brain to explain them?
 
Phydeaux said:
Well yes, it's the spiritual, but we have already been through that.
Any way, things could be said to be with in reason, but reason changes as science changes, all we can do is use the science untell it has been changed or deleted. If you say that some thing doesn't prove God, well duh... But I guess that you guys ment is show evidence that through logic brings us to believe that there is a God.
No, so far you have not shown that "the spiritual" is an alternative method of proof to logic. You see, logic and scientific method have strict rules that decide how we discern between truths and un-truths. If you can demonstrate to me how this "spiritual" of yours is also a method of discersion, then I will respect your claims to the proof of god. So far you have not done so, and so I stick to the only method of discersion that I have known to work - Logic.

Phydeaux said:
The fact is there is matter, this matter has not been here forever, and Some Thing had to create it. This would be called a Creator, He may not be here today, It may not be even a He but there must have been a Creator at one time, is this not logical?
How do you know the matter has not been there forever? Have you suddenly become all-knowing like your beloved deity?

Phydeaux said:
Because we know that it will not last forever and through that we can use logic, and find out that if it can not last forever it could not be here forever.
I can not prove it, but logicly we can see that.
How do you know it will not last forever? And why, if it will not last forever, does it have to have started at some point? And why do you find it harder to believe that matter was always here than you do that god was always here?
You aren't really making sense. :rolleyes:


@Lord Draegon:
Well said, for the most part. Thing is, mostly these arguements are targeted at Judeo-Christian myth rather than the essence of religion faith. Real shame, that is.

@BJ:
Will you please stop using these ridiculous over-simplifications?! Logic is a tool! Not a fruit, but a tool! Just because you use a metaphor in which apples are logic and mangoes are myth, doesn't mean this is necessarily valid! Methaphors are all nice and well, but they do not prove anything. They simply give another perspective on things.
Now, considering logic is a tool of understanding, and religion (or faith) is a tool that does many things and among them it gives a feeling of understanding, I don't deny that religion exists as a tool. I simply deny that it is as good a tool. I deny it gives the right results. If you would allow me to use a metaphor now as well, consider two tools of mathematics:
The abacus and the computer.
Now, the abacus is a great tool when you deal with whole numbers, with smallish numbers, with basic arithmetics... It's aesthetic, it is easy to create, and it's easy to use. But can it deal with a complex mathematics on it's own? No, it cannot. But the computer can. The computer is a superior tool. It does a better job than the abacus.
I don't deny the abacus is nice, I don't deny it's existance, I simply refuse to succumb to it's charms, as I know my ol' PC can do a better job with complex matters.
 
CurtSibling said:
@FL2:

I think you are out of line making such comments about Fred and Iggy.
Their wording and level of debate are mostly without peer here in CFC.
If you can only answer pressing arguments with unworthy abuse,
I then politely ask you to refrain from posting here.

Until such times as you can develop some civility.

:(
Spaffle? Dibble norf goip? Spliffen darf shebben gilfish?

I made a complimentary remark about assuming that their ability to comprehend the written word was up to par, without seeing any evidence either way, in essence giving them the benefit of the doubt, and I am accused of flaming? What in the name of Squandor the Shaggy God of Ewok Fertility and Pig Roasts are you babbling about?

Seriously...

To the various protests vis-a-vis the Bible being the word of God, I have made that argument to my satisfaction, in several threads, including a partial summary of the argument in this one not long ago, and no one has made any countering argument that even dented it.
 
Mrogreturns said:
Well- now, you have made the point I thought you would- but have not phrased it as a question. I think I won, but the wife says no dice- so I will shortly be making a chocolate cake. Thank you so very very much ;)

Think of it as an opportunity to have your cake and eat it too. As a bonus, if she's happy, life will be good. She might even stimulate your CNS more than usual ;)

Or would that be the cake?
 
Dr. Hovind: It only takes one proof of a young earth to decide between CREATION and EVOLUTION.
This magic bullet mentality, the tendency to rely on a single, isolated argument to win all the chips, has gotten creationists into more trouble than possibly anything else. Unfortunately, Mother Nature does not bestow a little, gold ribbon upon each of us to certify the accuracy of our proofs! Indeed, nothing in science is ever "proven" beyond all possible doubt; there is no way of knowing, with 100% certainty, that one's proof is foolproof. One can always dream up possible scenarios that will contradict even the best scientific models. (The better the model, the more farfetched the loopholes are.) If you crave the certainty of a real "proof," the final word as it were, then you had better stick to mathematics or logic! Those are the only arenas where "proof," in its absolute sense, plays any serious role.

Scientific hypotheses are rated according to their credibility; as more and more data support (or fail to refute) a scientific hypothesis the greater our confidence in it. If that hypothesis fits into a common pattern, successfully interlocking with established theories, then it gets another big plus. If that hypothesis has no credible competition, despite much work in the area, then our confidence in it begins to soar. If that hypothesis also supplies us with numerous insights into nature, which are confirmed by further observation or testing, then it might attain the status of a "scientific theory." (Note that a scientific theory ranks very high in credibility, has been tested repeatedly, and serves as a successful framework for integrating and explaining a class of diverse, natural phenomena; it must not be confused with the layman's use of "theory" which refers to half-baked speculation or guesswork. Consequently, the complaint that evolution is merely a (scientific) theory is a little like saying that an athlete is merely a gold-medal winner!)

If there is one thread running through the scientific world, it is an emphasis on the total picture. Great care is taken to survey all the relevant literature and to arrive at a balanced judgment of the known facts. Scientists are trained to overcome a one-shot, "cowboy" mentality. When great scientific ideas do fall, on rare occasions, they do so of many grievous wounds followed by the rethinking of the total picture. The idea, seemingly worshiped in creationist circles, that you can disprove a theory by whipping out some cute, isolated "proof," which settles everything at once and for all, is not scientific. Even if such a "proof" were technically correct, it would likely shoot down only a weak model of the theory. Deep truths are seldom grasped whole; early models are often flawed in some of their particulars. Furthermore, isolated data, even if correct, are often misleading. Consequently, scientists must evaluate the total picture and avoid being fixated on specific points.

Facts successfully explained do carry weight and cannot be ignored; facts that don't fit are not necessarily fatal to the central ideas behind a hypothesis. Good scientific judgment is the art of weighing all these variables to properly evaluate the big picture. Contrary data and isolated arguments are important in that they carry the potential for bringing down a theory or hypothesis. That grand potential is seldom realized in the light of further investigation.

The one thread running through "scientific" creationism is a fixation on particular arguments or "proofs" to the exclusion of all else. This shows a profound misunderstanding of the scientific process by people who should know better. Dr. Hovind, for example, is blissfully ignorant of the relevant literature surrounding his "proofs." Consequently, his audience is given no hint of what the "competition" has to say. Nor does he discuss the weaknesses in his arguments. (By comparison, Darwin was always mindful to point out potential problems and acknowledge the strongest opposing arguments.) In short, Dr. Hovind has made no attempt to grapple with the BIG PICTURE. As a result, his arguments carry no scientific weight.

Not even one of Dr. Hovind's 30 isolated "proofs" holds any water. Meanwhile, an avalanche of burgeoning data continue to increase our confidence in an ancient Earth and cosmos. I will demonstrate the former by examining every single "proof" of a young Earth listed in Dr. Hovind's Seminar Notebook. I will demonstrate the latter by supplying two or three examples which have no reasonable interpretation save that Earth is old.

Humph I stand at my principles
 
The Bible makes no claims whatsoever concerning the age of the earth, short of placing its appearance between that of the universe itself, and when life appeared on the earth. This claim seems to jive with what scientists have come up with.

Many Young-Earth Creationists make the claim that the Bible says the Earth is 6,000 years old. They base this on two things:

1) that the phases of Creation are referred to as days,

and

2) that the Bible says a thousand years are as a day to Jehovah.

1 is indisputable.

2 is highly suspect, and in fact, openly specious. The passage itself is a clear metaphorical contrsuct, using 'as' to make a comparision.

If that were not enough, we also have the case of Methusaleh. He is the logest-lived human listed in the Bible, said to have lived 969 years. So? So that means that 1,000 years is a longer period of time than any man can claim to have lived, and thereby comprehended the enormity of.

Taking this into consideration, the 'thousand years are as a day' passage would indicate that any period of time long enough for God to consider equivalent to a man's day is a longer period of time than any man can comprehend.

Conclusions: the Biblical Days of Creation had no set duration or measure, and could easily have encompassed the billions of years that we know have passed since the utterance of He Who Causes to Become: 'Let there be light.' Clearly then, YECh's are mistaken in their belief that the earth is young.


(At this time, I'd like to point out that Genesis 1:1 does not indicate that God created the Heavens and the earth simultaneously, it provides a summary of what is about to follow.)
 
Blasphemous said:
@BJ:Will you please stop using these ridiculous over-simplifications?! Logic is a tool! Not a fruit, but a tool! Just because you use a metaphor in which apples are logic and mangoes are myth, doesn't mean this is necessarily valid! Methaphors are all nice and well, but they do not prove anything. They simply give another perspective on things.
In 1800 posts I think we have pretty much proven that that god cannot be proven by logic and reason. To the smug satisfaction of all concerned. We, I am speaking collectively and generalizing (about both sides in the debate) in lieu of a scientific poll, are less happy we have not crushed the other side with our wisdom and dedication to truth. Why can't they see it? Are you blind to the truth? I guess it's one of life's little mysteries.

I'm sorry you disapprove of metaphor. After Monday this thread will be metaphor free for two weeks while I'm away. Let the bitter dust and dry language of expanation wet the parched tongues of the believers while the sweet waters of lucidity and quantum entanglement refresh the minds of the faithful!

Blasphemous said:
Now, considering logic is a tool of understanding, and religion (or faith) is a tool that does many things and among them it gives a feeling of understanding, I don't deny that religion exists as a tool. I simply deny that it is as good a tool. I deny it gives the right results. If you would allow me to use a metaphor now as well, consider two tools of mathematics:
The abacus and the computer.
Now, the abacus is a great tool when you deal with whole numbers, with smallish numbers, with basic arithmetics... It's aesthetic, it is easy to create, and it's easy to use. But can it deal with a complex mathematics on it's own? No, it cannot. But the computer can. The computer is a superior tool. It does a better job than the abacus.
I don't deny the abacus is nice, I don't deny it's existance, I simply refuse to succumb to it's charms, as I know my ol' PC can do a better job with complex matters.

But in the every day matters of simply living, the abacus wins hands down.
To understand the complexity of the universe with the mathematical precision of multiple decimal points a computer would be better. I agree. To understand the interactive universe we actually live in, I suggest the abacus.The best tool is dependent upon your goal.

If your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. If your only tool is logic....I'm very sorry.
 
cgannon64 said:
Are you going to respond to what I posted, or just throw out more quotes?
If he didn't get the message last night I doubt he will get it today.
 
I gave him the benefit of the doubt because he went to bed before some of our posts...

...but when he just says "I stand by my principles", which weren't attacked, I doubt he read them.
 
He must have a web source of stuff that he pastes from. I guess he doesn't really put any personal thought into the post, so he doesn't have an opinion other than what he takes from somewhere else.
 
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