Pyramids

[cseanny]

Lots of people have said they have to have stone, but, as ben-jammin suggests, isn't IND sufficient?

Imo, in most cases the answer is YES! People always overstate the cost of the Mids. How many times have you heard someone say the Mids cost 3-4 additional cities? That's just flat wrong. If you're Industrial the Mids are gonna cost you 334 which at first glance seems excessive. Then you look at what it takes to found a single city:

1 settler
1.5+ workers
1 monument for non CRE leaders
1 garrisoned unit

That alone averages around 270 . If you throw in an early granary that puts you at 330 or the cost of the Pyramids for an Industrious leader. So in the worst case scenario you lose out on 1.5 cities worth of total . Imo that's ALWAYS worth going for the Mids.

What conditions make it a stronger or weaker choice?

Obviously stone for any civilization and IND leaders with at least 6forest with no access to stone. Imo IND leaders will benefit from the Mids more regardess, simply because they have cheap forges which means early powerful production via whip/building units while in PS. SPI is a beast with the MIDS, especially RAMSY, but after all my experience with the MIDS I've found that with my style, quicker forges leads to a lot more early production which allows me to take over land at a much faster rate. Just saying, besides Ramses, I'd rather have an IND leader with the MIDS than a non-IND, SPI leader (aside from maybe Monty).

What sort of openings do you use when you're getting it (tech path, pre-Pyramids builds, post-Pyramids "catch-up in land" builds)? What's a "good" build time for Pyramids?

I like to tech towards Writing>Math and pre-chops>Construction>Currency>MC>then either towards ENG or the top of the tech path toward Cuirs. An Industrious leader working 14 +50% will produce 231 in 11 turns. Throw in Math chops for 6forest and that gives you an additional 270 and a grand total of 501 .

I play mostly Immortal and below and on those levels you're pretty much guaranteed the Mids if you complete them by 1000BC. With the above scenario with a 14 capital that means if you started on turn 64 (1440BC) you'd finish by 1000BC. That's usually allows me to have 4-5 total cities before I start the Mids which I'm fine with. With a lower start then adjust the date accordingly.

 

[Keilah]

I like the mids if:
-you want the great engineer points
-you plan to do a tech-heavy rush (elepult) but don't have cottage-able land
-you have a ton of land nearby, or the map is laid out in a way that ensures you will be able to take all the land you want, even if you delay by building the pyramids
-you need the early happiness

 

[K.Murx]

@cseanny
You did not facture in the opportunity cost of not building that city earlier. Lets say that building the Pyramids delays your settler by about 25 turns (non-IND). In 25 turns, a city (presuming unimproved tiles, a food and a ... lets say, 1F5H production special available (metal), grass hills available, no micromanagement, no chopping) will:
4 turns: Produce 12F working 3F unimproved food special and 4H/8C from city tile
5 Turns(9T total): Produce 25F (total: 35) working improved food special and 5H/10C (9H/18C total) from city tile, grows to size 2
9 Turns(18T total): Produce 36F (total:71), working improved food special and improved production special, giving 54H/18C (63H/36C total), grow to size 3, Granary is in, 20 food in storage (2 overflow, 18 from Granary).
7 Turns(25T total): Produce 21F (total:92), working improved food special, production special, mined GH, giving 70H/14C (133H,50C total), grow to size 4, 21 food in storage (2 overflow, 19 from granary)

So not building that city cost you 133H, 50C (probably more), and a size 4 city with all the land that comes with it. Judicious use of chopping and micro will make the opportunity cost much higher. And if you factor in AI expansion (which will cost you city spots you could otherwise claim) it gets worse still.

 

[Um the Muse]

K.Murx, I was thinking much like you, but seeing Seraiel's posts have convinced me to take a second look.

Depending on your difficulty, you can make up the opportunity cost by conquering cities and capturing workers. Since you don't lose all of your forces when attacking, a successful attack on a city costs less than a settler+worker(s). If you can capture cities that are better than what you could've built yourself, then you definitely come out ahead (By the way, if you're not familiar with cseanny's method for winning, s/he uses the Pyramids to enable Police State. PS + forges gives you half price soldiers).

cseanny: I think that you've overstated the cost of a city, though. I can take my sweet time building the monument and garrison (I usually build cities to not need a border pop unless I get a religion spread to me or the city needs a library). Plus, you'll have to build them anyway when you conquer cities.

I assume that you also give up building any other wonders in the early game? That might also count as an opportunity cost. I imagine your way means forgoing the ability to Oracle MC, right? Or can you manage both?

Also, are you saying that you get Math before building the Pyramids? That might make it a much more attractive option, if you can do that.

 

[cseanny]

@ Kmurx and the Muse

I think it's a pretty reasonable cost of setting up a new city, aside from CRE/EXP leaders in which case you'd be right around 220-235 which is where I get the 1.5 worst case. If you don't have at least that many supporting hammers into each new city then you're delaying the potential benefit of said earlier city anyways.

No other early wonders in the game . With someone such as Ramses, or other IND leaders not starting with Myst and who aren't CRE I'd simply tech Min>BW>AH>Writing>Math and use whips/chops for Libraries in cities that had to have an early border pop. And YES to getting Math first. The timing usually works out so you can settle your 4th or 5th city, finish math (in the 1700-1440BC range), then chop the Mids and with a moderate amount of forest this lets you keep running 2 scientist too for an earlier settled GS (otherwise sometimes slightly delayed if rushing to finish mids) which is very powerful in route to Currency/MC.

On Immortal, after Math I'll put 4 turns into Alpha then trade Math f/ Alpha. At this point every city is building research (1GS soon if not already) while I'm quickly researching Construction. In the meantime your workers are chopping every tree in site while queing up Axe/Chariot/Spear/Etc so as soon as you switch to PS you get units fast. If Spiritual I'll switch to Representation for a few turns and with a settled GS this will allow you to reach Construction on average, 2 turns quicker. Yea, I self research MC and typically get Machinery in the 1AD range and already have forges set up in every city by the time Machinery is finished. This means huge amounts of production at this point in the game.

Specifically at Kmurks:

On Immortal I can still usually get 4-5 cities before starting the Mids which is fine. On higher levels city maintenance slows down expansion rates regardless, usually at the 4-5 city mark until you can stabilize a bit. Part of my stablization period just happens to be chopping out the Mids .

But even w/out maintenance and timing of initial expansion early Mids allow you to make up a lot of what you've stated via larger happy cap and enhanced production when under PS, especially during early wars/chopping. But IMO the 1st war is usually pretty equal production wise w/ or w/out the Mids because:

As a generic number take 15-16 (modest numbers) forest left in 5 cities = 30x1.25 (PS) for 7.5 extra per chop, or about 120 total . Then by either whipping or straight building units you can usually average a gain (PS) of around 3.5, per city, per turn. With 5 cities this looks something like 5 cites X 3.5 = 17.5 gained per turn. In 12 turns that = 210. Throw this number in with the gained from chopping and you get right around 330, or the cost of the Mids. 1st wars which produce units for more than 12 turns quickly start giving the advantage to the Mids. But in general I'm perfectly fine with arguing that neither side has an early war advantage in terms of pure .

The huge benefits come during your 2nd Major war once you've got early forges in conjunction with PS. 45 whips and 45 chops make EVERY city a production beast, literally. Let's not forget cities already starting with high hammers......

So then for me the argument comes down to something like....... can a player w/out the Mids turn that early 1 to 1.5 cities into a stronger long term position? On average I'd say it's not even close, NO. IMO, The Mids lets every single city get better production (especially IND w/ earlier forges) and research and as you keep taking more and more land that effect quickly catches any early advantage a non-Mid start may have had and as time goes on the production and research potential lets them really pull away.

 

[vranasm]

best way is to capture the Mids...

in my first game I won on Emperor I was playing Mehmed and my friend Louis build me the Mids which I (after a long thought) agreed to capture and totally annihilate him.

I wouldn't build Mids without stone even as Industrious, the cost is too steep. Unless you like SSE/WWE then it's obviously mandatory.

 

[cseanny]

I wouldn't build Mids without stone even as Industrious,

With at least 6 forest I'd argue it's almost always the superior choice (Ind) because the production gained is just silly, as my previous posts detailed. The numbers favor the Mids. Been owning up some Deity with a 4 city Mid push lately too. Seriously, I don't think its even close. Build em!! Go big or go home!

 

[Seraiel]

You know, that I play with Settings far from normal, but I've found the Mids actually always been worth the hammers but never as op as many people make one want to believe.

I. e.: Extra Happiness: Doesn't matter, just build a few more Warriors, and HR is even better because it's cheaper and one can have as much happiness as one wants in a large city, and as few as one wants in a small city.

Extra Beakers from Specialists: Those make up for the lost hammers. Lately, I find myself only running Specialists during GAs and then in 4-5 cities like 10 in each of them. Then, the extra output really matters, but again, the hammers invested could have been something else aswell.

PS: Is not important in my games, as I'll have 20+ cities of which ony 2-3 build troops, it wouldn't be worth the extra upkeep.

But: Early US without having to research it can be extremely useful in my games, as I reach the part there where I've reached Sushi and don't want to research anything more than necessary. Then the mids are 16k Beakers and that's why I try for them in most games. Also, the GE-Points, together with the ones from HG in one City + an Engineer Specialist help to put out a GE to rushbuild the extremely expensive Wallstreet / the Kremlin.

Those are very specific tactics, so I come back to the beginning, Mids are good, but they're not as good as most people say imho, at least in my games with many cities. I can see their use for smaller Empires, and for Tactics like cseanny described. Working REP-Specialists though? Have tried that, wasn't better than building Cottages or even Mines. Don't know how it is on normal speed though or on smaller maps. Might also be better with not being FIN, it is probably. I imagine if one plays Rome or some other ORG Civ, all those Spy-Specialists might come in real handy with REP, also supporting a playstile with huge military conquest where one is usually backwards and has little to no tech-trade friends.

GLH is 10 times better though. I quit the game if I miss that

Btw.: On Marathon, The Pyramids go "between 2000 BC and 1000 BC (T 150-250) . Sometimes even later, sometimes nobody builds them, sometimes they go so early that one would have had to invest everything just to get them. Very unrealiable Wonder to fit one's playstyle to it imho.

And to the thing with stacking multiple different GP points into one city: I find it very frustrating when the wrong kind of GP is born, also, 4 cities produce more GPs than 1, so I tend to split the pools by their type. This gives me a 2nd GA from the MoM, which I also find way better than the Mids, to start a 2nd GA, gives me a GM from the GLH / Colossus (normally Trademission) , a GS from the GL and a great Prophet to build a Shrine from the Oracle, and I know that those persons are safe and that I can count on them. Mixing up the pools has always ended in getting a useless GP that had like 1% chance, or in getting a GE, that is worth too much to be used for what I had planned at first so I have to wait for the next.

Btw.: Actual Record of GP Creation in one of my games during the 1st GA: 6 GPs running 5 GP Farms! In the next GA it were again 5 GPs and after that 4, so those were almost 20 GPs with the free ones from Music, Communism and Physics. 3 of those were GEs btw But, again, not really on topic as most of it is too specific and only for Sushi-Approaches on Huge maps.

Cya

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

The Great Library synergies very well in a space race victory

GrLib obsoletes at SciMeth which is pretty early on for a space race. Granted it gets you faster GS for bulbing in the early game, but that can be leveraged for just about any victory type (excepting, possibly, Culture win). It obsoletes too early to actually help with the Space Race vic as you will need most of your scientists post SciMeth for bulbing the extremely expensive spaceship techs.

 

[vranasm]

GrLib obsoletes at SciMeth which is pretty early on for a space race. Granted it gets you faster GS for bulbing in the early game, but that can be leveraged for just about any victory type (excepting, possibly, Culture win). It obsoletes too early to actually help with the Space Race vic as you will need most of your scientists post SciMeth for bulbing the extremely expensive spaceship techs.

wow....

completely wrong

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Oh? So GrLib doesn't obsolete at SciMeth? Spacerace is won in the early industrial? Or do you save all your early GS? My point was that GrLib helps with any victory condition with the possible exception of cultural. It has no special synergy with Space Race over any other victory.

Space race needs heavy modern/future era techs to build the parts long after the GrLib obsoletes. So, just what was wrong about my statement?

 

[coanda]

Easier GS generation gives you more Academies for one thing, if you're already thinking Space.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I don't think I was "completely wrong". GrScientist generation helps with all victory types, I still see no special synergy with Space Race.

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

Pyramids are an expensive, long-term investment. I'd consider building them if 2 conditions are met:

-I've already blocked off my backfill. (This is usually priority 1 in the opening.)
-No immediate need for troops. (Protective neighbors, planning to tech to catapults, etc.)

As you might guess, I don't build them most games.

The main place they're useful is on isolated starts. In that case, delaying your cities isn't a big deal, and Rep is better for happiness than HR because you'll want minimal troops to keep costs down. Isolated starts cry out for Pyramids, IMO.

 

[ChanceDanger]

Great Scientist bulbs are pretty weak in the end game as you should be able to do the same as a bulb with 1-2 turns of teching. More important are Great Engineers for wonders and Mining Inc and Merchants for Sushi. Golden Ages are also way more important than bulbing at that point. Even burning two GEs on Space elevator is going to save you more turns than two scientist bulbs on spaceship techs.

Sure they're important early but they really shouldn't have much importance in the modern era, which was Vranasm's gist.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I see. He was referring to my statement about bulbing late game techs. I understand. I rarely go for Space Race (too much late game mashing on the enter button for me). However, my point was that the GrLib is no more synergistic with space race than any other vic.

 

[Archon_Wing]

The main point is by the time Great Library obsoletes, it's already of little consequence and thus being obsolete is not a factor when most of its utility is gained earlier. Earlier advantages snowball into larger ones.

Out of all the victories, science is the most important for space. It certainly helps the others a lot , but not always to the same degree. You already suggested cultural victories don't need to worry that much about science, but neither does diplo. So that leaves time, conquest/dom, and space. Time victory is more dependent on pop/land. Conquest/dom doesn't always require a tech advantage. And even those usually depend on you having a key military tech they don't have. They could be more advanced than you in techs (The infamous no Rifling but have Radio AI) and it wouldn't matter. Of course, not every tech is a space tech, but you still have to go through most of the tech tree to win a space race, while that is not needed for a military win.

But for space, you always need have built up a solid research rate because bulbs can't carry you anymore outside of hitting the internet and even that...

Thus space race has the highest level of synergy with science and related things. It consistently requires more beakers for it than any other kind of victory by far.

But I suppose we needed a better explanation than "completely wrong" and an eyeroll.

 

[Seraiel]

I understand Blitzkrieg, I also find the GL overrated. When I start the first GA, my GP Farm is about Size 15-17, tell me, how much do 2 scientists matter with that farm? I also run 4-5 farms simultaniously during the GA-Chain, then 2 Scicentists are worth even less.

Surely it adds up, and I also thought "woah, 2 free Scientists", but it's actually one of the most overrated wonders of all. It cannot compare at all to the Mids, the MoM, the GLH or the Oracle. Last game I missed it, and didn't care at all / didn't miss it at all.

 

[gspchamp999]

I understand Blitzkrieg, I also find the GL overrated. When I start the first GA, my GP Farm is about Size 15-17, tell me, how much do 2 scientists matter with that farm? I also run 4-5 farms simultaniously during the GA-Chain, then 2 Scicentists are worth even less.

Surely it adds up, and I also thought "woah, 2 free Scientists", but it's actually one of the most overrated wonders of all. It cannot compare at all to the Mids, the MoM, the GLH or the Oracle. Last game I missed it, and didn't care at all / didn't miss it at all.

I think it is very valuable and correctly rated. It lets you convert hammers into 8 GPP of the most sought out type without taking a hit to your food intake.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Don't get me wrong, when running a SE, the GrLib is pretty awesome. Free science with no food cost and good GPP is nothing to scoff at. The effect being exaggerated, of course, by PHI leaders. With marble it's almost always worth it. And that was my initial point. During the GrLib's tenure, it provides science & GS that can be used to get a direct military tech advantage as well as catapult you to Liberalism for a nationalism / drafting beeline. The synergy lies with a SE and PHI moreso than any 1 particular victory type.