Questions about Jews, Judaism and so on.

[civ2]

ori
Well, that was my personal opinion based on what I know about, say, Christianity.
I might be wrong - but I'm sure neither Christians nor Muslims etc have any rules on how to wash one's hands in the morning or tie one's shoes.
Judaism HAS rules for that - as well as for any other situation that might (or sometimes even might NOT) happen.
That's why any novelty the world produces (be it computers or toilet paper) must be fitted into the (original!) Torah rules.
Basically, that's one of the biggest jobs the Rabbis do.

 

[cardgame]

Sounds authoritarian

edit - what kind of social (legal?) falling out would occur if someone skipped the Sabbath in your town?

 

[ori]

ori
Well, that was my personal opinion based on what I know about, say, Christianity.
I might be wrong - but I'm sure neither Christians nor Muslims etc have any rules on how to wash one's hands in the morning or tie one's shoes.
Judaism HAS rules for that - as well as for any other situation that might (or sometimes even might NOT) happen.
That's why any novelty the world produces (be it computers or toilet paper) must be fitted into the (original!) Torah rules.
Basically, that's one of the biggest jobs the Rabbis do.

While specific rules differ between religions I doubt you can fit that into an argument about one being a different entity alltogether.
Now what is Torah Law by your definition? What is written in the Torah alone or also later additions? If so what adds up to form Torah Law?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Ziggy's going stubborn, Ziggy's going stubborn... (sing-song tune)

Ziggy is asking questions. Ziggy likes answers, not a link and "see for yourself"

Dude, you're definitely missing the point here.
Resting is NOT equal to getting tired.
And I really think it's "ceasing" rather than plain "resting".

Says who?

And you can cease while NOT being tired - it's just that the JOB was done already.
Look at the very bottom.

So, why do all other translations call it "resting"

edit: D'oh! Forgot the link, lost the link, anyway:

New International Version (©1984), New Living Translation (©2007), English Standard Version (©2001), New American Standard Bible (©1995), King James Bible, American King James Version, American Standard Version, Bible in Basic English, Douay-Rheims Bible, and more disagree.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995) agrees with your translation.

So, what's going on? Is there a word which was mistranslated or is this a case of interpretation?

 

[civ2]

cardgame
Well, God is the Supreme Ruler, you know.

ori
Hmmm...
The term Torah normally applies to two distinct but closely connected things: Written Torah and Oral Torah.
So I'd say that Torah Law is the resulting combination of both - and with additional "fitting" to current realities.
A simple example is the prohibition to turn on/off electricity on Shabbat - there weren't any lightbulbs some 3k years ago, but we do have them now - so there must be a specific ruling regarding it.
That's how the real Torah Law works - and I think I've mentioned it just a few posts before...
Did this answer your question?
Or I still didn't get it?

 

[civ2]

Ziggy
Finally you see for yourself how a "simple" translation can lead to HUGE misunderstanding...
Also, I'm not sure, but weren't all your sources Christian-based???
While I'm giving you the original Jewish ones.
So, yeah, it's in the interpretation as much as in translation - and it adds up to become a confusion (sometimes).
My very first Google..!

2. By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested [a] from all his work.
Footnotes:
[a] Genesis 2:2 Or ceased

Your page???

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

Ge 2:2-7. The First Sabbath.

2. and he rested on the seventh day-not to repose from exhaustion with labor (see Isa 40:28), but ceased from working, an example equivalent to a command that we also should cease from labor of every kind.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Ziggy
Finally you see for yourself how a "simple" translation can lead to HUGE misunderstanding...

So, tell me more about this mistranslation.

Was it a specific word which was mistranslated?

Also, I'm not sure, but weren't all your sources Christian-based???

They're online Bible on the internet based.

While I'm giving you the original Jewish ones.

Yeah I know.

And I want to know more about the differences.

So, yeah, it's in the interpretation as much as in translation - and it adds up to become a confusion (sometimes).

What? You just said it was a translation issue.

If it's an interpretation issue, it's another matter altogether.

Hang on, to the Plotinus Mobile!

 

[civ2]

Ziggy
Sorry, I edited the last post.
Also it seems that not only Jewish sources agree with my source.
I think it's actually more of misunderstanding the idea rather than mistranslation - same as in Berzerker's question about water etc.
You see, the LITERAL text is quite often hardly understood the RIGHT way without having the knowledge of the commentaries on it.
For a "simple" text it would make zero difference between resting and ceasing - but in our case it's crucial!
If God "rested" - He was "tired", but if He just "ceased" - it's just the job's done, nothing more.
But God can't "get tired" simply because it's a property of LIMITED beings, His creations.
But God is Limitless (not just Unlimited - the very idea of being limited is inapplicable to Him).
So we must logically conclude that God didn't "rest" but rather "ceased".
Also, you should read the ARTICLE I linked to somewhere above.
It has a very nice interpretation WHY God had to cease on Shabbat - it was for OUR sake.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

You don't have to insult my intelligence by explaining to me that God can't get tired. That's the exact problem I am asking questions about.

If this is merely a translation issue, it's understandable.

But if you're interpreting "resting" as "just ceasing" because otherwise it wouldn't make sense, I say that's a very liberal way to interpret "resting", and reeks to me of a cop-out. Hey the Bible says A, but A can't be, so lets pretend the Bible means B doesn't make the strongest impression on me. It's shaping the Bible afterwards to make it fit. The Bible should fit without molding if it's 100% correct as many claim it is.

I'd go for interpretation mostly in these two cases.

Thank you.

I "cease" my case.

 

[AL_DA_GREAT]

Why where so any jews attracted to communism?

 

[civ2]

Ziggy
Erm, sorry for "insulting" - didn't mean to, as you can guess.
Also, you're not the only reader.
To say very shortly.
What I meant is that it's close to impossible to understand the WRITTEN part clearly and rightly without the knowledge of the ORAL part (which is the commentary that EXPLAINS questions like yours).
And the Chrisitian sources 99% (if not 200%) DON'T relate to Oral Torah.
That's why I called it (mis-)interpretation.
The translation here is basically the same - I don't see much difference in the process of both resting and ceasing, they're just two sides of the same action.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I know you don't see the difference. That would require something which seems to be clearly missing and I think I'd be unable to explain to you.

Thanks for your effort though, I do appreciate that

 

[civ2]

Ziggy
I see the difference - I don't see its importance.
You're always welcome to ask - and I usually try to answer to the fullest degree of MY abilities.
(I'm just a normal human being - not some walking encyclopedia. )

 

[ori]

Thanks for answering - so if I understand you correctly you use Torah Law as synonymous with Halakha?

@Ziggy Stardust: the "resting" comes as a translation of vejishbot as in "vejishbot bajom hashvi'i mikol melachta asher assa" (and rested from/ceased all the work that (he) had done), it does indeed not have the resting, but rather the ceasing as a root:

The base word is שבת (shavat – the root of the noun shabbat/sabbath) meaning “to cease.” The prefix י identifies the verb tense as imperfect - will cease - and the subject of the verb as third person, masculine, singular - he will cease. The prefix ו means “and,” but also reverses the tense of the verb – and he ceased.

 

[civ2]

ori
Oh, thanks a lot!
To your question - what else did you expect me to say???

 

[ori]

ori
Oh, thanks a lot!
To your question - what else did you expect me to say???

well there are some that regard Torah as only the law in the written codex, others that only use Torah and Mishnah (oral tradition codified in the 2nd/3rd century) as defining Torah law and again others that use Torah law and Halakha (which includes all Rabinic traditions to today and never was codified) as synonymous. I got curious since your explanation of who is jewish is not part of Torah and only part of your description is part of Mishnah (the maternal descend and some parts of the conversion process) - this really is a halakhic description (if you include conversion which was handled quite differently between the descriptions in Torah, the descriptions in Mishnah and today's halakhic requirements and the rabbinic role has ever increased in this matter with an actual role for rabbinic supervision being a purely halakhic introduction) - also unlike Torah and Mishnah the Halakha is a constantly evolving field and obviously there are differences within (orthodox) Judaism about what halakhic traditions are binding and which can be overturned - not to mention the various non-orthodox jewish movements that have their own discussions about Halakha.

 

[civ2]

ori
Wohow!!!
I don't remember asking you - are you Jewish?
You seem to be so much knowledgable on the topic.
I don't think I could say it better.
It's just that for me there's no "separation" between (Written)Torah, Talmud and Halakha - these are integral parts of a single entity which I understand as TORAH in general.
That's why I didn't quite understand your question - but I do now.
Nice.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

@Ziggy Stardust: the "resting" comes as a translation of vejishbot as in "vejishbot bajom hashvi'i mikol melachta asher assa" (and rested from/ceased all the work that (he) had done), it does indeed not have the resting, but rather the ceasing as a root:

Thank you!

 

[civ2]

Ziggy
I'm happy you got your question answered (thanks to ori).

So, looking forward to new questions.

PS. I'm truly happy this thread turned out to be a MATURE one, not some "troll-cave".

 

[civ2]

Bump???